Beta and Alpha tags

Discussion in 'Novel Updates Site Discussion' started by Salexe, Jul 30, 2017.

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  1. Azure

    Azure The True Blue Sky

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    I haven't read this so I can't say for sure. Rather than conflict, it's more about setting a minimum level of respect you demand from others, and not tolerating anyone treating you with less respect than that. "Not tolerating" could be as extreme as fighting/killing the person, or as simple as cutting them out of your life.
     
  2. remy911

    remy911 ┗|`o′|┛ Staff Member

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    Nope nope nope. (n)

    It's simply too subjective and we really shouldn't be using "slang" in tags anyways.
     
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  3. Yukkuri Oniisan

    Yukkuri Oniisan 『Procrastinator Archwizard Translator and Writer』

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    That's how conflict management works.
    If you are someone who have avoidant style, you will ignore disrespect. If you are yielding, you will accept that disrespect without saying anything. If you are compromising: you will return that disrespect with another disrespect. If you are cooperative: you will confront the disrespect and ask why he disrespect you and how to resolve it. If you are competitive: not only you disrespect him, you might even coerced him to not disrespect you anymore.
    Basically, how we treat our surroundings and event around us revolve around this 5 strategies.
    Either you ignore it, accept it, find a middle way and solve it quick, took a long way to solve it in a way where everyone happy, or just face it from the front like the illusion of man you have.
     
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  4. LaDyViL

    LaDyViL New Member Staff Member

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    Be honest, you thought of Omegaverse right? :blobsmirk:
     
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  5. Azure

    Azure The True Blue Sky

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    Fair enough, but we can't even get people to understand the simple dichotomy of alpha(does not accept disrespect) and beta(accepts disrespect) to any standardized level, so understand 5 different personality types would be even harder.
     
  6. marine1corps

    marine1corps Invisible to all Novel Updates Staff

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    Hmmmm I would also like to know how he is like when its not involved with his peers. No clue what this novel is about but what is he like when it involves fighting?
     
  7. UriChay

    UriChay Well-Known Member

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    Well, there was someone earlier who wanted a story with a protagonist that didn't care about women and romance/sex at all, so that celibate tag might come in handy after all... :v

    I suppose it only proves that someone has to look at the set of tags to see if that mc is to their liking. Finding one single word to define this is difficult, particularly when it boils down to the character having a particular set of characteristics readers find acceptable or not for a (male) mc to have.

    I guess we could use Proactive protagonist and reactive protagonist...? Even so I feel these word don't cover the whole picture at all.
     
  8. AurionLute

    AurionLute Actively Inactive Nonmember

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    It just needs more reviews. Maybe if more people willing to leave more than a star rating. We can avoid what we try to avoid (in my case OP but coward mc).
    That's what I think anyway...
     
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  9. Shance

    Shance 『Trying to evade the wall in the front』『Failing』

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    How about someone that stands up to himself but shirrks responsibility? Or someone that is good against adversity but a total brick and coward with women?

    Or how about someone that is bullied but is sure to respond when his friends or family are in danger?

    Its hard, I mostly think beta of those Mc that cant handle women and or never do things they want but simply go with the flow of others... that or let others dictate what they do. Could be called whipped, but not necessarily.
     
  10. Yukkuri Oniisan

    Yukkuri Oniisan 『Procrastinator Archwizard Translator and Writer』

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    I think someone who just accept and endure the disrespects of others and then turns the table back at the opponent is more admirable than someone who goes ballistic when he was disrespected.
    Also, you might accept the disrespect that came from your Mother but not when it came from strangers or vice-versa. (For example: Your mother might insult you as "loser NEET get a job!" but you won't accept it if you are called that by a passerby)
    So using this as a measure for Alpha or Beta is wrong.
    Human did not use Lek Mating system after all, so Alpha and Beta are not something to be used for Human. Seme or Uke does however.
     
  11. Azure

    Azure The True Blue Sky

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    The first example wasn't his peer. He was, for all intents and purposes, the strongest man in the world, and she was a nobody. She got stronger later, but still nothing in comparison to the MC.
    It's a game-like world, and he split his stats so he both uses a spear and magic. As for his personality while fighting, I can't really objectively evaluate it. I've been trying to describe it for a few minutes now but nothing really fits. It annoys me a lot because despite how he acts in interpersonal relations, while fighting the author tries to pretend that the MC's an alpha. Especially annoying to me is how he split his stats so he could use more underhanded means in his fighting, yet when he faces someone equally strong he starts complaining about how they wouldn't be able to match him if he hadn't split his stats...
     
  12. Shance

    Shance 『Trying to evade the wall in the front』『Failing』

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    A bit out of context, but I dont see randidly as a beta. Randidly takes insults from the girl because its new to him, all the respect and worship of others had him so tired that having a girl trying to anger him felt like a new experience, more of a masochist than a beta.

    Also I think he did get angry at the end, he was not afraid of saying his opinion or raging abit, something that a beta doesn-t do.

    The thing with the teacher is more of a Can't do anything about it since I not only owe him one, but he is helping me be stronger. Doesn't stop him from almost giving in to the impulse of killing his teacher once or twice.

    So yeah, I don't think he is a beta.
     
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  13. Razogul

    Razogul [Flag Raiser][Rald's and Carm's Senpai]

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    I don't think the beta and alpha tags are needed. They're pretty much a broad concept overall so it's meaningless to do it.
     
  14. Azure

    Azure The True Blue Sky

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    The first demands respect yet does nothing deserving of it. Beta.
    The second depends on what you mean by a coward with women. If you mean he's shy around them, bad at approaching them, inexperienced, etc, none of that disqualifies him from being an alpha. If you mean he lets women walk all over him, he's a beta.
    The third is respectable, yet does not demand the respect he deserves. Beta.
    Both of those sound alpha to me, and I'd favor the first as well. People seem to have this perception of alpha as being domineering, but I don't see it that way at all. Tywin Lannister from GoT is a great example of someone who demands respect yet never loses his cool even when you disrespect him.
    Also, yes, context matters. You will obviously be more willing to accept disrespect from some than from others.
     
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  15. marine1corps

    marine1corps Invisible to all Novel Updates Staff

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    Here's the problem then, during the fights he is an "alpha", or should i say driven, but when its with friends and peers he is a "beta". Does being the nice guy in the "friend" group count as beta? But because he gives no qualms in killing his enemies does he count as an alpha?

    This type of question can be applied to most of Japanese light novels, especially when it involves harems. For example, those violent type Tsunderes, or in fact anytime the MC sees a girl's naked body on accident, he gets beaten up and doesn't "defend" himself. Does that make him a beta for not fighting back? At the same time those same novels have heroes protecting those he loved with no matter the cost even if it costs them a leg or an arm.

    This is all purely subjective person by person that is why the mixture of characteristic tags and type of novel should be easy enough for you to determine if its something you might want to read. Because Beta has a mixture of those said characteristics tags it is very easy for someone to put down "beta" for some of those traits when its not.
     
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  16. Azure

    Azure The True Blue Sky

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    I disagree completely. That may be the explanation provided by the author, but there's a huge difference between someone who gives you a wake-up call to keep you humble, and some who constantly treats you with absolutely no respect. He accepted it because he doesn't stand up for himself when he's abused.

    It went down like this: Shal lashes out > Randidly protests > Shal breaks his bones > Randidly accepts that he deserved to be punished > Shal PoV thinking about how it was completely out of line for him to lash out > Randidly moves on without addressing it. Sounds very beta.
     
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  17. asomeCokkies

    asomeCokkies [Eternal Quest for Epubs]

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    @marine1corps
    Here is an attempt at a definition, essentially highlighting points in a story that turns a reader off:
    Focused on doing what other’s want them to do
    Simpleton, foolishly nice
    Always Searching for Perfection or a need to be perfect based on others views
    Avoids Conflict and Confrontation, disagreeing with other people’s views and statements, to not saying something or asking for something because of the fear of a bad reaction. Would rather keep quiet and stay on someone’s good side than upset them
    Passive aggressive, very indirect. Never speaking their opinion regardless of the situation
    (Had to snag a few view points from some websites)

    An MC that shows no improvement in personality and(or) decision making other the power granted to them at the beginning of the story. Whose personality's strength shows reliance of allies (friends), equipment (ex Machina/plot armor obtained gear), others opinion of situation or oneself. without making or showing an attempt of change/character growth.
    Something kind of like this reflects the views of NU, however shallow and rushed, of a beta protagonist.

    These views don't directly reflect negative objective views of a bad protagonist. People tend to get their opinions of a man mixed in with beta male mc(novel), NU doesn't and shouldn't be constrained by the term beta male

    Edit: forgot indecisive toward female, tell the other females to go if they're true to one love interest.
     
  18. Shance

    Shance 『Trying to evade the wall in the front』『Failing』

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    I got what you say, but that's the problem, I took the thing with the girl at kinda face value, you read into it more to see his personality.
    Shal breaking his bones... I kinda forgot about the details, but it never crossed my mind that he was beta because of it.

    I can see now that randidly is much more passive with people he knows, or goes with the flow with those that are no enemy. He is ruthless with enemies though. Still wouldn't put the beta tag on it without reading it again while thinking and searching for clues about it.

    The tags would need someone like you explaining every novel, they are much too subjective on what one reads about the story, how they see an Mc's conduct.

    Few are 100% one way.

    But yeah, ill probably reread and revaluate Randidly's character.
     
  19. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

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    That's not how a "beta" works.

    In particular...
    Those things have absolutely nothing to do with the "beta" thing, a character that doesn't have character growth isn't a "beta" character, it's a bad character.
     
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  20. Azure

    Azure The True Blue Sky

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    I don't believe willingness to kill has any correlation with being alpha. The key note is that he's willing to be abused undeservedly.

    Honestly, it's all contextual here and must be judged on a case by case basis. It really depends on the degree of violence and the degree of not fighting back. With the violent Tsundere, are they "love taps" and/or playful, or is she actually assaulting him? With the peeping, it's obvious they'd immediately get mad/slap you/etc and that's fair enough considering it's a misunderstanding so it's not like you need to fight back or anything, but they should attempt to explain their side of the story. Also, being beta doesn't prevent you from protecting your loved ones.

    I get why it would be hard to use them as tags, but I was just saying it's easy to define them.
     
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