Discussion [SERIOUS] Let's brainstorm a better way to translate "Face"

Just leave it be and face it,

Chinese novels need their own distinct sayings. If editors keep going changing things and are let loose, we might get Shakespearean Chinese novel instead. That would be ridiculous.

 

I'd say they care less of what the majority of people care about, but when it comes to their circle of people and friends, they care quite a bit. An Ex: A gangster who shoots and kills two rival members of another gang, will probably not care what a middle-class family or anyone of higher status has to say or think, but within his own gang and on the streets his status will be elevated by a small or large margin.

 

Yes but using the same idiomatic expressions over and over again is bad writing. I assure you that the writers of Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Journey to the West were not constantly harping on about face

 

I like my face tho

 

I think a big part of it is that people don't use respectful words on a day-to-day basis, so children never learn them if you're never taught them you can't really use them.

 

the english concept of Face axtually comes from Canton and Hong Kong merchants who needed a reference to it in order to deal with the local merchants. I believe, although my Chinese is not great, it is a literal translation of one of the characters in mianzi. Anyway the english concept of face has been around since the 19th century. No need to change it

 

IMO, Face is a depiction of the potential of threat, in a similar way that voltage is the potential of current, or height is the potential of falling. You give face to people who can hurt you, (ie: give face to the daughter-raping silkpants sons of mass-murdering gangsters, for an in-genre example : )

It's certainly not dignity or honor or respect - loads of people demand and expect face that did not earn it, and do not deserve it. Reputation might come close, or share part of the load, as that also integrates the good and the bad - though it's unsurprisingly more complex than that.

When you look at the positive elements of Asian, and specifically Chinese society, Face tracks pretty closely with success - earned or inherited. Partially, that's because Asian cultures see a person much more closely attached to their families; a your success is your families success, and vice versa. However, that somewhat breaks down when you examine the negative aspects of Chinese society: criminal activity, corruption, Outright Evil, etc. And it completely loses all relevance once you consider the degrees differentiating two evil and or successful people.

That's why, as a general 'drop in' replacement, you can easily consider the amount or degree of face due a person to be the potential threat that person represents. This seems applicable in every Chinese novel I've read*, although explaining this to my friend from Hong Kong left him pissed at my disrespecting his culture for a few days - until he came up and explained that ok - I was actually right, but also completely wrong. It was a confusing conversation, and I didn't want to push. : )

So just keep translating it as 'face' and let people learn whatever definition they think works best.

Of course, the entire concept of popularity and respectability is subtly different in Asian societies, vs western ones, where the early islamic / judeo-christian concepts of humility were integrated into society's ego.

*: If someone can come up with a concrete counterexample, I'd be appreciative.

 

The same with old legends nowadays no one knows even damn bob marley

 

That is mostly a matter for the authors rather than the translators though.

 

Not a personal dig, but something to be aware of when you write things like this. Anything you say, unless you explicitly say otherwise, is automatically assumed to be your own understanding of the facts or opinion, as appropriate. Putting an extra line to underline that is only appropriate if you're communicating with someone openly hostile to underline that you're communicating, not ordering them to accept your words. Saying it in a situation like a forum reduces the confidence in how much even you believe your own opinion, which hurts the discussion. It also discourages debate, because in modern culture an opinion is like a shield that it's wrong to strike because the word "opinion" somehow makes your view unassailable by fact. Debate is how people rethink their views and form better, more reasoned opinions, so any time you catch yourself saying it's just an opinion please consider whether it's necessary; clashing opinions are important, and the current trend of "opinion" as a shield is really hurting cultural growth these days.

And jesus, I went full rant. Well, pet peeve, I guess. Ah well.

 

Yes and no. One might argue that since you're doing an illegal translation already, going the extra step to improve the writing wouldn't hurt anyone. I wouldn't make that argument. But it exists.

Me, I just criticize light novels/web novels as being the fast food of the literary world.

 

That is why I wrote "mostly" as I agree there is times it could be done, problem is the translator would need to be clear about which meaning fits the scene most and often the author don't really make that clear, might not be worth the effort a lot of times for the translator.
I do agree it is over used though. lol

 

face = pride ..............................

 

Prestige and Honor are more useful Synonyms of face. But they don't encompass the actual same things as face does. Let good uncle Wiki solve your dillema on the sociological concept of Face
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)

 

I'd mostly agree with this, but it's primarily social threat, rather than something like the threat of physical harm. And it's the general threat that a person/group possesses themselves, not any specific threat they pose to you or any particular person/group.

Consider giving face to a friend or ally, to increase the "threat" they possess, without really increasing the threat they pose to you.

 

Not just "face", there are a lot of CN phrase that sounds weird in English.

 

I just wanted to post again to this thread to say thank you to everyone who decided to show me face by giving me likes. I dunno what prompted it because it wasn't a particularly witty post but it was enough to push me over the edge to get a trophy. So thanks everyone who liked me! I wish I could like back but I hit my limit.

Also, to be on topic, the closest equivalent I can think of in English that might be similar is "putting up a front" and I've seen "fronting" used as slang in a casual conversation. I think face works best though because it's about appearances so people's public composure depends on their facial control a lot of times but at the same time, that's also the first place where they start losing it. But I can't really think of a word that would be a full synonym... maybe a few contextual substitutes.

In this case, I think being literal is better than localizing the translation.

 

I attribute this to my familial interactions where anything you said will be remembered down in detail and be used against you in some distant coming days.

However others perceive it, I just see it as a method of clarifying my views. Though I should probably rephrase that but the lack of importance I assume for this makes me express my raw thoughts.

Also I don't see how saying it is an opinion makes your argument unbreachable, it merely isolates it in a controlled environment where you can always counter it with societal standards how the majority matters instead.

 

My opinion on translation is this. Either maintain the world in it's pinyin (or whatever) form such as Ge or localize it in the most interesting way.

 

I would seriously consider dropping a novel if the translator choose to change "face" to "respect".

Disregarding all the reasons already mentioned, I tend to link people (biased, I know) who say stuff like

"Give me some face" to chinese, arrogant fellows, who will pull out their swords to fight the MC just to ultimatly loose.

while on the other hand

"You gotta show me some respect, man" is linked to american hip-hop gangstas who will pull out their guns to shoot the MC dead, just to recieve death sentenced in court.

While both may be arrogant a**holes and die at the end, the pure thought of having the MC slaughter his way through the enemies sect ending in an epic rap battle against the likes of 50 cent kinda ruins the mood for me