News Qidian's Announcement

I'm aware of this, however if they stated that they were allowed to get authorizations for new translations and WuxiaWorld went through the proper channels - Ren went to China to negotiate a new contract for those 11 novels - then the entire situation is a load of BS. It's not piracy if they said it was allowed and if they were informed, then you can't claim unauthorized and without notice. Qidan is grasping at straws trying to incite public sympathy however is incite public rage instead. I hope that RXW was smart and had the oral agreement recorded with a tape recorder or something. I'm Chinese and I can say I don't trust any Chinese companies - never give them the benefit of the doubt because these shady stuff is the norm for them.

Qidan should take their shady business back to Mainland China. The international scene doesn't need companies who don't operate in an above manner and operates like a bunch of liars and tyrants.

 

That's a big if.

Between Lower quality translations and community mistrust(especially at this stage in the game) they could find a huge reduction in their traffic as their site could fail to take off.

This type of controversy while they are getting established in this market can kill them before they even get a chance to get off the ground, regardless of how much property they have on their site.
Worse for them, lack of community empathy means that very few will have any qualms reading off a clone site if it's a QI property, and other may resort to using archive.is or other sites with similar functionality to read.

From an objective standpoint they are being evil too soon, and are harming their chances to profit from their market. Even they understood that, which is why they took the initial actions they did, trying to sway the community with the impression of goodwill.
Only they brought the tie out too quickly, before they actually established a sufficient level of goodwill.
If they waited a year to do this, they'd have a base that could easily weather the fallout, they don't have that now.

It would have been far better for them to honor their original agreement with Rxw and sell the rights to those 11 novels, but they got greedy.

 

Yeah, that's why I said "technically".

QI was essentially running an amnesty program to get everything official, and gave oral authorization for WW to act as a landing for yet to be licensed works.

While it's technically still an IP violation, WW could be said to both be justified in their actions and acting in good faith.

Frankly this reeks of retribution for not agreeing to their second phase plans.

 

Well that's professional communication for you!

1) "As we all know..." (First let's put them -readers- all in the mindless sheep flock)

2) "Qidian is the most popular platform of original online literature both in China and worldwide" (Indeed, so much so that my -and many readers- first, accidental, and aimless novel was WW's WDQK or TDG, etc...)

3) "From its establishment to this very day we have always..." (Just going to blow their own horn here so the true WE(your father) is back)

4) "This is especially true as we enter the global market" (Hmm...so that worldwide wasn't really global huh!?)

5) "we find our works have been voluntarily translated by fan translators" (Right, WE forgot! The actual guys did all the worldwide and global part with smiles and sweat)

6) "It is our hope to...while protecting our authors' rights" (So our point is market and business models... Wait! While convenient let's mention the authors. Um, Grandpa Bai is experienced!)

7) "On the premise of cooperation and mutual benefit" (If WE're not driving, that car is going nowhere, full stop!)

8) "This kind of shared content has gradually been adopted by more and more translators" (You(the sheep) see? Just sit there and open, *cough cough*, i mean, let ME drive!)

9) "For the past six months..." (Could have not been there but, hey, numbers make anything more concrete)

10) "we hoped to nurture fifteen years ago..." (Do not forget the credit and respect that I(your father) deserve)

11) "As Qidian International, incubating and ..." (Just saying, you rarely see an eagle incubate a goose's eggs)

12) "developing the market will be always our first priority rather than profit gaining" (Community? what's that? Ah, Market! And yet WE're not aiming for profit)

13) "We plan to invest over 10 million dollars in next few years" (irrelevant to the issue Qidian vs WW but that's more numbers for you guys)

14) "build a better ecosystem for all" (Only WE can and must do it, wether you need it or not. Somehow reminds me of World Wars)

15) "To achieve this goal..." (Again, irrelevant, but perfect to tire them(sheep) out and throw some sugar (extraordinary translations, amazing translators, ...))

16) "Last but not least, regarding the cooperation with WuxiaWorld..." (Now that you(still sheep) all have your thoughts twisted, and hopefully are brainwashed, we can come to the main subject)

17) "We are deeply disappointed that WuxiaWorld announced that they will continue pirating our novels" (It's more sharp to scratch the
'voluntarily translated by fan translators, and we truly appreciate their enthusiasm' and just say pirating)

18) "In the meantime..." (A last one to make sure you end this reading having forgotten our wrongs, and with a nice image of US(your father))

You see, that wasn't hard to understand guys!

 

You can't gain a copyright on a derivative work without the authorization of the originals owner.

As a copyright holder, you hold the exclusive right to control the creation of derivative works. Without giving that authorization, the derivitive work can be considered an infrigement of the original's copyright, and thus is not granted copy protection.

Per copyright.gov/circs/circ14.pdf

Essentially, that means that without that authorization, the originals rights holder can claim IP infringement against the derivative work, which could include claiming ownership of the work.

It's not automatic however, which is one of the reasons why they are trying to "buy" it through an amnesty program, as seen in their translation contracts.


Edit: to add in, Berne is a little more vague there, but the exclusive right to control derivatives still exists.

Also to expound on my "seize" remark, outside of a ruling in absentia, I'd not expect that to actually happen, more that it wouldn't go to trial but instead be settled out of court with the translator "selling" the copyright in lieu of financial reimbursement.

 

They aren't running an amnesty program though. If you look carefully in the leaked contract, it says that they are merely putting it off for later. They'll still need to settle the dispute. The contract merely makes all translated chapters from then onward legit and authorized. The other party is still going to need to settle with Qidan for translating prior to the contract even though WuxiaWorld got permission from the original authors to translate. Hence why my issue with Qidan is the way they do business. Money's important - I get that. You need to way your worker's wages afterall hence a paywall isn't a problem for me. However the way they act leaves a lot of be desired. They have a legally binding contract in place and they are now terminating said contract under bogus reasoning of "piracy" and all the while spreading false lies and accusations at another organization because they refused to comply to their demands. If said demands were in the contract then WuxiaWorld should of course comply however since this situation didn't arise from the very beginning, it points to it not being part of the original contract. If you want to add new clauses into a contract, of course you'll need to renegotiate. Since WuxiaWorld isn't willingly to comply with their demands, they're resorting to half-veiled threats and undermining the clauses of the contract without justified causes.

 

I can't believe there are people who actually support Qidian , they have been here for 2 months and they are doing what everybody was saying they would be doing. Ruining the community

 

This is one bit where QI is actually doing things right. The bit in the clause for "separate consideration" is actually them buying the work from the translators.

The same Clause also retroactively make the work authorized, just under a "work for hire" basis making it the property of QI. They are however paying the translator for that prior work, albeit at a really low rate, though that could be justified given the unauthorized nature of the work.

Author permission doesn't mean much, as they don't hold the copyright. QI does as they sign authors under a "Work for hire" contract. What it does mean is that that author isn't going to push the publisher to go after the translator.

 

I'm unsure as to how you inferred that. My take on that is, by signing that contract, you the translate agree that prior to the signing of the contract, you - the translator - did you translations unauthorized. Hence by signing said contract, you are agreeing that you have infringed upon their original copyrights and thus must settle with Qidan and repay them.

 

The clause reads:

That last bit: "Prior Translated Works will be subject to the payment obligations as set forth in Section 4" refers to the section setting the rate that QI will pay the translator.

Essentially, it states the opposite of what you're thinking.

 

I see, but where did you find that? It wasn't written on the post that I saw.

Edit : Nevermind. I found it. In really fine print.

According to WuxiaWorld, that's not the contract they signed, so WuxiaWorld is under different obligations.

 

so your point is once readers realize translator professional translating are being paid a set amount of money instead of just donations like before they are less likely to donate. That will cut into the money a translator gets and since Qidian does not pay enough to match translators donations Qidian should allow WW and other translators to continue translation as in while leaving their translations of currently ongoing and completed novels free but you can donate to speed current ongoing ones along?

I am sorry but that is a TERRIBLE business proposal imho. of course I think Qidian or any other Chinese publisher is trying a bit too early to create a market for the Novel scene atm. They need to wait for when they have more then just what? like 40-80 ( not actual numbers just ball parking NUF front page) novels before they even consider a paywall or let us buy a individual book.

But like I said in another post.

For now I am fine with Wxw and current fan translators translating based on donations and patreon system. Then have it be free for new readers to attract a larger overall consumer base which is why I said I think Chinese publishers might be a bit too early to try and paywall stuff. On the other hand I am completely fine with a paywall or buying a novel. Like I am happy to buy movies DVD to support actors and the business of making movies/tv shows. Or I buy a video game instead of pirating to support game companies.

I hate how Qidian acted publicly but I do not disagree with them turning this into a business its what a publishing company will do to make money. Qidian needs a new PR department though.

Edit: forgot to mention those 40-80 are just a number of novels I threw out as a example. Also it does not mean all those novels are fully translated either hence it implies it a bit too early for the market imo not enough supply.

 

Oh yeah, it's messy enough even without that.

And you're right, QI can't just willy silly utilize it, they'd have to legally get it recognized, which is way more hassle than it's worth. I used "sieze" more as a short hand for a likely outcome than an actual seizure, since I'd expect this type of thing to be settled given the pressure QI can put out. (That or just a take down).

Which is why they're attempting to buy people out now.

That's a great reference btw. It's nice to see.

 

Funny how people who are arguing for Qidian use 'WxW' when referring to WW. Sometimes makes me think all their posts are written by one person.

 

Yeah, WW did something entirely different, They bought the licence to translate and publish the works wholesale, rather than work as a contracted translator. It's by far the more expensive route, but it's the superior one.

My take (read speculation) is that QI tried to sign WW to a second contract where they shared worked, which fell through(likely due to work for hire clauses) and then decided to not sell any more licenses to them and began their current pushback/temper-tantrum.

 

Oh, but the business is the problem here. We don't need it. Neither does the community nor the translators, hell even authors don't need it! The middle player is no longer necessary but is trying to use its old power and resources to keep the new platforms down. How is that fine?

 

As usual because I can't quote directly I will just mention authors of those quotes.

@noodletowntranslated "they will pay 4000$ for old chapters and 40$ per future chap" - they are simply trying to get translators on their side paying peanuts - maybe it's loads of money for people from 3rd rate countries, for students etc but it's simply a pocket change for Qidian. To be honest they are paying something like 20-30% of price it should be as per pure translation standards (I'm talking about price on old chapters as you mentioned - edited and ready to go thus their worth is a lot higher than chapters translated in the future) - they want to do business but don't want to pay like it's a business deal? Notice one thing - it's a good deal only for translators with aren't a brand by themselves. I won't talk about differences between translators like translating skills - it's obviously such a differences will occur in such widespread international community.

@HavekZero "i dont see the point in jumping on a translator. the whole point of this issue is that this is a fight between two corporates,
preferably you idiots would stop insulting translators, you have to realise without them we'd be reading Lnmtl and i'd just rather not" - You seems to miss the point why people are against certain translators and their posts. This community have been created by painstaking effort of many people - especially @rwxwuxiaworld . Now some translators chose to slander part of the community and one of the pillars to spread lies only because Qidian is giving them money they wouldn't get from donation simply because level of their translation isn't enough to make western readers donate higher amounts. In other words - if they chose money and a certain way of acting they by default should expect such backslash. Where is an action there is reaction.

@noodletowntranslated "real world where weebs r keyboard warriors and those that work to make a living r said to be soul-selling sluts" - you see it's all depending on a point of view. You chose this way to make a living signing slave-like contract by western standards = you sold your soul for money in our eyes. You tend to forget it's an international stage - not one in China, India or other country with other laws and expectation regarding be it salary or your own rights. To be fair I'm 100% sure Qidian violated international right by making translators and editors sign contract which they send by fax especially if said translators are living in EU or USA.

@R0 "Qidian haters are hating on whatever they can. I'm surprised, his post was obviously done in a hurried manner. Who cares as long as you can understand it." - simple matter - if certain people are talking you are expecting certain way of writing/talking from them. The same thing applies at internet and in real life. If for example Pope is visiting some country do people there are expecting him to start rapping about hoes and weed? As he said he is an official Qidian representative delegated by Qidian to deal with this mess it's appropriate to expect certain level of writing in English from him. It's not only about him being a translator but being Qidian representative delegated to deal with this situation. It's only showing how Qidian don't respect our community at all.

@aylmao69 "ethics aside, i think most of us on qidian are happy that we're getting paid for translating, something we were doing for free before" - that's the main point - it's all about money on your part. You don't care about other things and chose way which is better for you not for community. So let me ask one question - where you will be without community?

@aylmao69
"1. youre not wrong, and i do think that the way theyre going about things is stupid. my issue is mostly with the community being upset that theyre gonna have to spend a couple of bucks for something that qidian is paying others to provide."

Let me tell you one thing - personally I'm one of big donators and I don't have any issue with it. Damn my donations till this day alone will be enough to buy a lot of finished novels from Qidian after they got translated versions ready. The reason why I wouldn't spend even a pence is very simple one - because how they are dealing with whole situation and how they shit on our community. There isn't any goodwill in their actions and motives. Everything coming from @Qidian sounds like pure marketing talks in order to achieve higher profits.

"2. this isnt a direct response to the person i quoted, but let me say this: if there was no money involved no one would be getting 10-20 chapters/week. well, maybe a couple of peopel would, but not dozens. you should be glad that theres money involved, because that gets u chapters. i understand if youre upset because u dont wanna pay for reading, youre entitlted to your opinion. and i also understand and also agree that what qidian is doing with the 11 novels is scummy. with that said, i feel like people are just whining about "corporation is only doing this out of greed." you should be happy that qidian is around to give u more novels at least, even if u dont agree with what they did to ww. as someoen who has been involved with this community as a content provider for over 1.5 years, i know that the bulk of people care about quantity over quality, so i think qidian is making the right business move by hiring mediocre (being generous here) translators to do novels.
just wrote some of my thoughts."

As I mentioned before it's other issue than money. It's @Qidian who thinks it's all about money when in reality it isn't. To be honest they are damaging themselves even more when they keep stating how @rwxwuxiaworld is so bad and how they are brilliant using lies and twisting truth in order to prove their point. There is so much shady tactics going here Qidian should really just think twice before doing any single step in any direction. There is a few ways to fix this whole situation but honestly it all depends on two things - do Qidian really want to fix it in the way it would be the best for community (to be honest it would spike their profits on the long run looking at it from business point of view), and do rwx want to do the same (this part is obvious - rwx care about our community). The best for community and for Qidian/WW will be cooperation - it seems like Qidian don't want it but simply want to monopolize market thus they will keep damaging themselves. Don't get me wrong - I would pay for Zongheng and 17k novels if they would chose to go that way in the future. I would even support translators moving to Zongheng and 17k IF it would be mutual cooperation with wuxiaworld and translators. I am a person which can spend $8,000+ just in order to get some good looking skins in games like LoL. It still doesn't mean I would pay for Qidian novels (even if they would get the best translators possible) simply because they tried to murder this community. Qidian will need to think about one thing - do some casual readers buying their novels will bring them the same revenue as die-hard fans? Believe me there is many people which have the same point of view as me. In the end Zongheng and 17k can provide us very good novels and we - people donating big money - simply don't need to read Qidian novels at all. UK and USA markets are the biggest source of revenue for international companies (even rates on sites providing ads are an evidence) - as for now it's @rwxwuxiaworld who have a very good standing here and Qidian is losing their standing every single day. Basically Qidian already lost hundreds of thousands in potential revenue becasue of the way they act now. It would be nearly impossible to get it back without mending their relation with WW and reaching a consensus.

@noodletowntranslated "the mediocre translator's novel is pretty highly ranked. 4.4 stars out of 900+ votes. This point is just a reply to someone complaining about how Qidian enslaves translators and doesn't even pay unless the quality is super good." - There is a different way to look at translations done by fans for fans and translations done when working for company. To be more specific Qidian will die in western/international market with those mediocre translators because their novels will be obliged to refund by default - sorry but Qidian want to enter international market and we have certain standards they need to achieve - and they are far from it as for now. So let me ask you a question (you don't need to answer me just answer yourself) - what will Qidian do after roping in better translators than they have now? In the end of the day as those contracts state you don't have any rights even to voice your opinion (well contracts can vary but will be similar to the one we all saw). Looking from business point of view those mediocre translators are employed for short time because of few things :

1) someone need to translate novels before higher skilled people join in,
2) it will show community how Qidian "care" about translators (it's only a plot in order to rope in better translators)
3) it's very low cost choice when comparing it to any other way to deal with such situation

I'm highly positive they are employed only for short term because Qidian is just stingy about money. Look how they send you in order to deal with this mess instead chosing specialized PR officer who will know what to do.