Question How come novel translators commonly use patron?

Glad to be of some help, @Danthefanokaku ! A lot of people misunderstanding your post only means that we're a really appreciative bunch to the translators over here.

I can list a few other reasons, actually, some of them already being mentioned by the other commentators, such as webnovels are already hundreds ahead of the translators, so readers have something to look forward to, and the fact that supporting small time creators through Patreon, Kickstarter, and the likes have only been around recently, much more recent than manga scanlation scene.

That recent development actually can be applied to all webnovel translation. A lot of novel titles have very low chances to ever be licensed in other countries, and that has something to do with the selling value of illustrations (of manga, anime) compared to writings, especially those that can be deemed as the lowest quality works compared to "real" novels. So the big publishers never really expanded the market on their own, excluding the imports of highly popular titles (like SAO, wolf and spice).

In return, the community has been growing so far by just having each other to rely on lmao. Instead of piling up hopes to wait that someday their favorite title/trope/theme will ever be licensed, it's much more foreseeable for them to encourage the translators to keep translating with what little money they can afford. That's the beauty of crowdfunding, I suppose. No one has to pay a pile of cash, just some cents can make the difference.

 

Again, thank you @isecai! I’m so glad someone understood. I’m also one of those people, since I wouldn’t be able to read the amazing novels that I’ve read without the help of those wonderful translators!
Right, I highly doubt that we wouldn’t have nearly as many translators for both manga and novels if patreon didn’t exist, as that platform helps so many people earn the much needed dough to both run their site and their lives.
Hmm, that’s a great point you’re making. Since with a webnovel, you can essentially self publish online and get your novel to readers who may or may not like it, since the author can pretty easy direct online readers to their novel. Word of mouth is essentially what makes or breaks a novel, because if they’re are more people who are talking about your novel then there are more people reading your novel.
That’s definitely the beauty of crowdfunding, since it’s not like a normal fundraiser where you have to pay a preset amount wether it’s for a product or just a general donation, it’s generally a set amount (by that I mean it could be a $10 donation to a church to attend a dance, or a $20 can of popcorn from your local boyscouts troop, which are both fundraising events). But with online crowdfunding, you can pay as little as a dollar and still support your favorite translators. I mean you don’t have to pay a butt load unless you want to read all of Son-con that’s been translated haha, but that’s something else entirely.

 

You see what you want to see. Manga translators also receive donations. I have seen them earning hundreds per month.
Why not use Patreon, mostly because their account will get taken down by manga publishers who have a strong Western presence.
It's naive to think those who aren't..who appear to not be earning are saints.
It's either they keep their earnings hidden or naive like the former owner of Batoto: not earning money worked out great for him.
There is a reason translation websites became profitable registered companies eg, Wuxiaworld, Gravity and Volare while their much older manga equivalent like Batoto are dead.

In summary, as fa as. I am concerned anything not earning well is living on borrowed time and going to fold soon. How many manga scanlators became registered companies or licensed works?

 

I don’t think it’s a “you see what you want to see” mentality, but rather “it’s just what I’ve seen, what have you seen?” mentality that I have. I’m trying to find out what other people think, and as such the only frame of reference I have is the things that I’ve seen. While you may have seen a good number of translators earning hundreds of dollars, I’ve been seeing manga translators earning just enough to fund their Dropbox accounts and their websites.
That can definitely happen, but there are other ways to get donations from their readers. But then why aren’t LN publishers with a western presence stopping translators patreons?
I don’t think those without patreons are saints, I just think that they don’t have a patreon. That’s it, there’s no deifying those without a patreon.
I think that’s a rather rude point you made that the owner of bato was naive because they didn’t take money from their users. I think it was cool that they didn’t make their service a paid one, however the reason that bato went down because the admins couldn’t keep running it by themselves and keep it functioning after repeated ddos attacks from unknown hackers. At least, that’s what one of bato’s representatives said. Although it could be said that they weren’t able to afford good security wasn’t because of their money problem, which was one of the reasons that bato went down. But I don’t think it was a naive venture. I think the reason Wuxiaworld took off is because of the fact that they have novels that the readers are interested in, and thus people are willing to frequent their site and thus pay for their content. I do agree with you on that point though.

 

You just made my point. You have translators who earn almost nothing too.
There is a bias against earning in the manga community.
You keep denying facts even though the owner of Batoto explicitly pointed to a money problem and failure to sign agreements with publishers.
The manga community is like Japanese traditional publishers. Set in their ways and refusing to move forward with the times.
An example of a novel used was Overgeared, a Korean novel.
Can you name a western company that publishes Korean novels in English?
I bet you can't but you can find Multiple Japanese publishers.
It's very simple, the smart scanlators, fansubs,pirates became registered companies e.g Crunchyroll/ J-Novel.
The naive ones like Batoto believed community good will can make a venture thrive.
Charities do not work.
For profit Social Enterprises work.
Everything costs money especially fundraising. Don't take my word for it.

If the manga community does not change from considering earning revenue as some unholy action, we will have more Batoto on our hands.
Even Hobbies Cost Money.



EDIT: I would argue that you started this thread to get people to agree with you that translators with Patreon chapters are evil. Hoarding chapters as it is called. This community is stupid, a year ago you might have gotten what you were looking for but this community is wisening up. History is the best teacher there is a reason, the translators with Patreon chapters are the ones releasing daily or loads of chapters.
Don't mention World of Cultivation, it's an anomaly not the norm. All the holy fan translators for the most part are either dead or MTL these days. I am in the business of making translators money and hate threads like this that pressure them. They are scared to earn with their skill when they have bills to pay.
Community good will that makes you starve? Poison will be better

 

nu derives some revenue from ads. I'm not sure where else that they their money from though. it's probably a big labor of love.

although....how are you a new reader when you've been on nu since 2016?

 

Err, can we not attack the guy? I know we're kinda sensitive about making money over fanstuffs over here, but I can tell that OP was seriously asking from a point of curiosity instead of judgment. Like, "what made novel translation possible to monetize, whereas manga scanlation improbable to do so". There's no need to get all geared up on him.

Okay this is the only time I'm going to meddle unless someone addresses me in the future post.

Yeah, but donation is hardly sustainable because there's rarely any transparency or clear monetary target. I think.

They do, though?

You'll find several cases of titles being stopped translated upon requests from J-Novel, such as Grimgal of the Ashes, Musume no Tame Nara, and the one you'll see in recent post in the Novel General subforum, Roxism (the translator) with uh... I forgot the title of the LN. I'm sure behind the screen there's a lot more going on.

And there was a huge thing in the CN community when webnovel (the website) was first launched... The-company-that-must-not-be-named was almost signing a contract with a (group of?) translators who took legal means to license the work they had been doing so far... and ended up in a long, long mess lol.

 

Lol the random person example did Have the guy say thanks for the first one, before noticing there were still more. As for my first post, that wasn't me being emotional or raging about the topic, it is just how I end up writing my pieces when thinking solely logical. And unlike what someone above suggested. Manga is by no means easier, novels are by no means faster. He difference is that in novels the only work that needs doing is the translating (3~4hours plus depending on the character count and the difficulty of the piece as well as factoring in the experience and skill of the translator) and the editing of grammar afterwords which takes almost as long. Manga on the other hand has sooooo few words the translators job is minor taking just minutes or half an Hour tops, but it has other roles that have to be coordinated with such as the cleaners, re-drawers, type font editors, raw procurement etc. Images in a manga can give context for the translation as well as the fact lots of manga have translated novels they can reference to see if they made a mistake or To Catch irregularities. Also, comparing different mediums is just tacky. It is like comparing a TV series to the movie it was based on. Different media, different audience, different requirements.

Glad you liked the skit. I find people understand summaries better when they are funny.

 

Aw, you, no need to be that subtle.

It's easier to produce a chapter of translated novel instead of a chapter of scanlated manga, as the task doesn't stop at the translator. I think we both agree with that.

As a translator who has worked on both types, I can say that translating novel is definitely easier for one-man job than being an anime fansubber or a manga scanlation-er. It's all in the copy-paste-ability of webnovels.

 

First, it depends on the individual and secondly it was never a consideration of the whole system. Solely the translator and getting money through patreon while manga teams often don't. You have worked on both, so have I, I have also helped in producing and editing original pieces, so I am rather familiar with the individual requirements that differ between content mediums.

Translators don't use copy paste, you are confusing mtl with real translation, something that you should aim to avoid In the future. Novels have lots of context based on content in early chapters or that is not yet released with later ones. The character usage is often more complex in Novels than manga as Manga is meant to be picked up and read in moments. There are many reasons translating a novel is harder even when working in a team. On the other hand the only hard part of scanlation is getting all your team members to submit their contributions on schedule. Manga translator's would have a few chapters done and submitted at One go cause its so easy, only to have to wait for typesetters to correctly place them in the corresponding place per page, further to wait for more raws to translate.

Its the difference between cooking a meal(novels) and prepping light snacks of junkfood(manga)

 

Haha just saw this and wow.
Reminds of the If I had a wish I would wish for three more wishes

 

We probably have different experiences here, if I didn't mistake your words.

I was saying that before as someone who had worked on a novel translation and manga scanlation as a one-man team. A 20 page manga chapter took way longer to produce (up to finish) than a 2000-word novel chapter. The first took weeks while the latter took a day when I was doing both at roughly the same conditions of having a day job.

As I've said before in my very first reply to this thread: having easier time here isn't about the translating skills needed. If it's just about translation, even at the point that manga has many furiganas in mangas (especially when they appear for the first time in the volume) as opposed to webnovels has already made translating manga easier.

However, we did agree that a manga scanlation involves so many different skill sets. When I said translating novel was easier than manga, I meant to say that I think it's easier for someone to utilize just one skill set (that is, language-based) than having to redraw, clean up, typeset, or even from procuring the raws if you have the physique book. You've also stated this point. If you're insisting that I'm mistaken by saying that "just" translating is easier than completing a whole steps of scanlations, then I propose we agree to disagree.

As for translation based on the context, I thought it was a given if you're a fan translator who have been working on the same title from the beginning. That's why I realized we might have come from different experiences here, as you were a part of team who might have multiple translators working on the same project...?

The first one I agree, though please read my point well before you're insinuating that I'm making light of a novel translator's task compared to a manga translator.

The second one, I don't really understand. I think I thought along that line as well...?

Edited out the part about MTLs hahah ;;;​

 

@Wujigege I didn't say anything about Batoto. It's saddening but true that it doesn't work. I was actually going along with your point but it seems I didn't make myself clear enough.

It's true that donation system doesn't work as good as Patreon, which is why I think manga scanlation groups (whether consisting of an individual or several people) can't rely on donations for sustainable source of funds.

OP never asked for translators to stop doing Patreon. What I took from him was an implied question, "How come a manga scanlation group cannot do the same?" So it's not an attack, it's more of a student seeking guidance to the masters, cultivation setting wise. Using "how come" does make the question more offensive than normal, though.

OK I should stop being a white knight lol. Take it as if I never said anything, I might be wrong after all.

 

since repeating myself would be pointless.

don't judge A by the standards for B. you have decided translating a novel is easier because "they only do one thing" solely because of your own lack of ability in another field that requires you do do many things in much lesser amounts.

anything more than this would be time wasted.

 

tbh the way manga vs wn different is because the way the respective field grow up or can be said the culture.

manga scanlations can be tied with anime scanlation long time ago way ahead of webnovel translation. at that time the one who do manga and anime scanlations is people who pure hobbyist / weeb/ otaku (whatever you call it) for their self / group interest. thus making anime or manga scanlations is like religious things. now religious things do need some donation to keep it alive, but if you ask for payment for manga or anime scanlation you will be called out by community or even some translator itself and this culture to some extend still carried until now.

now webnovel translations is like something in industrial revolutions which make its culture more like bussiness thus paying / appreciations./donation for webnovel is kinda accepted although called by some people or communities.

 

I'm afraid that you are wrong about that point. The OP isn't asking why he can't get the patreon chapters. Granted, the way he worded his point was a bit wrong, but he did apologize for it. He did explain that he want to know the reason why some translators use patreons and or delaying the chapters. And don't put words in someone's mouth.

 

Well, that is not true. He made it clear in as many words in his response to my post.
It might not have been clear in the first post but it was in the corresponding one.
I should probably delete my previous posts since Dao Fox did a better job than I did in making that point.
If I was the only one who misconstrued his post then you won't have so many people who responded negatively or at least are on the same page with me.
We see what we want to see.
Thanks anyway

 

I apologize that I've built a case based on a personal experience to be perceived as a factual argument by the ones reading my post.

I'll have to return the same to you, though. Unless there's an in-depth study or a majority vote that can somehow conclude that either one is truly more difficult/easier than the other, upon a previously agreed scope (something which we haven't agreed before starting to argue, I suppose?), I'll stand by my opinion and you can stand by yours.

 

Okay then? I guess we’re on the same page somewhat then. Also, I didn’t start this thread to make translators seems like bad guys, nor did I start it to make a flame war. I keep saying this. I’m terribly sorry if you see this thread as a person out to piss off the community. That’s not what this thread was about. I was simply curious about what the community thinks about paywalls. My personal opinion? I think they’re great, and I had that opinion when I was making this thread. I also personally believe that translators should be paid for their work. Again, I also believed that when I created this thread. I tried to make the question seem neutral as I didn’t know what the community thought of paywalls so I didn’t want to bias the question one way or another. Clearly, that didn’t work out the way I wanted it to, which definitely makes me bummed as I did not, and I repeat, not want to start a flame thread. I’m not on here responding to everyone while trying to start a fight, and I’m just here trying to learn more and expand my knowledge on this topic. I desire to know more, and thus I asked a question to the community. CLEARLY, again, my question came across as an attack on the community which isn’t what I wanted at all.
About the bato closure, I was under the impression that it was closing not only because of the money issue they were having, but because of other website matinence issues. So instead of it just being a money issue, it was both. I remember in the letter to the community, the person running bato saying something about how they were tired of babysitting the site whenever it went down due to a large amount of traffic or it just going down. I definitely agree with you that any hobby costs money, and thus it needs money to thrive. I did like that bato was free, but I wouldn’t have minded paying for bato as well, although my opinion might be in minority.

I actually don’t know how I’ve been on this community since 2016. I’ve only started reading novels since around January of 2018. Maybe I made an account using this email address in 2016 but just didn’t use it? That’s be the most likely answer.
Also, I definitely agree with you that NU is a labor of love done by the people who run this site. I would love to know how they support themselves and this website since I’m sure it’s a costly venture.

Thank you, I clearly stepped on a landmine of a subject when I posted this question. Curiosity definitely killed the cat.
Anyway, that’s a good point you made about donations, as from what I’ve seen there really isn’t a clear goal or a true reason to donate. When there is though, donations definitely do come in like when Squiggles (a manga translator) asked for some help during a rough patch in their lives, the community definitely sent him some aid so there’s that.
Also, I didn’t realize that J-Novels was truly shutting down multiple groups, as I’ve only seen/heard about it happening to 2 different novel translation groups. So that’s really interesting that there are more translation companies out there shutting down the novel translation community, I wonder if J-Novels and other translation companies goal is to take down the fantranslations and make them all apart of their company that way the translators can be protected and helped when needed.
Oh geez, that definitely sounds like a disaster! Especially since they couldn’t actually own the rights to what they were licensing since it’s not actually their intellectual property.

Oh then I totally missed it! Either way that skit definitely made me chuckle like Santa Claus. I definitely do enjoy reading a summary when it has some comedy in it, although I’m bummed that that was how the community’s was taking my question.
Anyway, I totally understand your logic, and I actually agree with everything you were saying about how novels are difficult to translate compared to manga, and that manga has more difficulty in the other steps that follow translation. I’d love it if more manga translation groups could use the webnovel or light novel that a manga series is based off of to provide the names and such, but I’ve noticed that that is not always the case (with LHtranslations in particular, since I have seen the names change from novel to manga on occasion).
Also, I just wanted to mention that I really enjoyed reading your conversation with @isecai as both sides made a bunch of good points, and I honestly agree with both sides as I think translating a novel is incredibly hard, but so it’s translating a manga series as there is more work involved in the final product which is what I think both of you were saying in your posts.

No no no, you are 10000% correct, I was just curious as to why manga scanlators can’t do the same as novel translators, and what the communities opinion on this matter is as I haven’t heard their opinion before. So you’re definitely correct in your thoughts on my original posts as well as all of my following posts. I would never say that a translation group shouldn’t earn money, as they need the money from readers so that they can support both the work they’re doing as well as their personal lives. If they have a rough patch irl, then they won’t be able to release the whatever they’ve translated, so it’s extremely detrimental to the community as well as the readers for the translator not to be making money off of translating.

That’s super interesting, thank you for your insight on this matter! I didn’t know that some of the manga translation groups came from the anime translation groups, which would make a lot of sense since there are only so many active translators around right now. I totally agree with you that novel translation groups are in a industrial revolution period, where they can now be paid for the translation work that they do which is wonderful!

I definitely worded my question wrong, and thus stepped on a landmine, which I’m terribly sorry about. I definitely just wanted to know why some translators use patreon and why the same can’t be said about manga scanlators. Is there a better way I could have phrased this question, so that it wouldn’t have offended the community as much as it did?? I’d love to know how to post a better question in the future, as I tried hard to make the question seem neutral so that there wouldn’t be any bias within the question itself, since I agree that translators should be paid for their work, but I didn’t know what the community thought as the manga community is pretty apprehensive when it comes to giving money to scanlation groups from what I’ve seen.

I definitely want to know why so many people were upset at my post, as I thought I made it clear that I wasn’t against what some translators were doing with patreon, but rather just wanted to know why there were able to do it within this community. Not as in, why is no one outraged, but rather why is it accepted here rather than in the manga community when I would assume that some of the community is shared between he two. I’m terribly sorry if my posts came off as terribly rude to you, I would love to know how I could have said this question. In your opinion, how should I have gone about asking my question in a way that wouldn’t have offended so many people within this community? How can I avoid this sort of debacle in the future? Is there a certain way I can preference my question so that people understand that I’m curious about this question and I’m not attempting to state that it should be one way or another, but rather just curious about the why itself? Is it the photo that I used for NU that has everyone thinking that I’m prefrencing my question in such a haughty and arrogant manner? Anyway, im terribly sorry that any and/or all of my posts to you came off as rude, haughty, or otherwise arrogant.

I could try putting up a poll at that point and see what others think, since a poll is community driven and thus we’ll be able to arrange the experiences of others into a simple bar graph via a series of questions. But that’s probably for another day.

 

Also, I just wanted to say this to everyone that comes to this thread, I’m terribly sorry if my post comes off as arrogant or otherwise rude, as that was not my intent. I was 100% not saying that translators shouldn’t use patreon to revive payment for their work, in fact I completely believe that translators should be able to make money off of their translations and I’ve always had this belief. In comparing manga scanlation to novel translation, there is definitely a difference in work but I wouldn’t say that one is easier than the other based on my own knowledge as well as what some of the other posters here have said about the issues that come with these two different translation projects. I also just want to say this again, I’m terribly sorry everyone for creating a thread that has frustrated or otherwise angered so many people within this amazing community.