Spoiler Latest Chapter Discussion Thread for Death Mage Raws

Discussion in 'Spoilers' started by FussyBadger, Nov 25, 2017.

  1. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much yes, but there's no guarantee that everything that Van thinks or those on his side thinks is correct. So additional confirmation is nice... though frankly we get quite a bit from Alda's POV anyway.

    It's actually not so easy to decide what to mention. A lot of the author's comments are quite obvious I think, or generally well accepted here. Also, the author doesn't always answer things directly and instead has characters comment on things (often to humours effect). There's also occasions where I'm not sure how best to interpret things as I'm not used to reading forum discussions in Japanese.

    One thing though - I'm impressed with how much the author does comment and respond.


    To put it simply, he's badly suited for the situation he finds himself in. However, he's a long way from a classical "big bad" villain. If anything, he's closer to the sort of antagonist you might see in a modern working environment - a boring, pedantic person who wants everything "just so" and rejects anything else. Alda definitely doesn't come across as a "muscle-head" even though he seems surrounded by them, and he also doesn't seem to be particularly driven by ambition. Imagine a company where all the executives died/left and the only one remaining was the accountant who then hired a flashy outside consultant with a lot of charisma but was more of a rabble-rouser muscle-head than a genuine leader. Then watch the official leader be surrounded by yes-men who responded to the rabble-rouser while also believing that their thinking aligns.

    Also, in Alda's case it seems likely that he wasn't always like he is now. Though he's not changed much he does seem to have been corrupted (or however you want to call it), probably by a combination of the circumstances he went through and Bellwood. If he doesn't recover his rationality then he'll probably have to be killed. Given how little prone he is to genuine introspection, self-reflection and so on it doesn't seem very likely that he'll change unless one of his assumptions about his situation is irrevocably proven to be untrue.


    Incidentally, I was thinking about why many of the gods don't seem to be particularly smart or wise given their age...

    If we consider the demi-gods then I think we can reasonably assume that their brains are like muscles - use it or lose it. ie if they don't work on thinking then they won't magically become smart/wise. Also, if they start thinking less than they used to they might well mentally regress. Consider the evil pure-breed vampires - they actually got weaker over time since their combat instincts became dull. For many demi-gods I'd guess they don't actually have to do much thinking. Genuine conflict is very very rare if you consider their overall lifetimes. For them, even more generic conflict (eg political or similar) is probably very rare for them to be involved with. Basically, they probably lead very boring lives so there's little to stimulate their brain. This situation is probably made worse due to the stance Alda and Bellwood have - effectively that there's no need to learn anything new and just keep doing the same. This is practically an anti-intellectual stance.

    For the non demi-gods, eg the sort we see in the divine realm when Alda is discussing various things, while it looks like they have to do a lot more thinking, they're also closer to the source of the poison. The smarter gods who could have been potential allies would likely have left because they couldn't stand Bellwood's cheap logic. Whenever we see these discussions in the divine realm, it's very rare for anyone to make suggestions. We've seen a bit from Fitun and Nineroad - apart from them it's generally Alda making all the decisions/suggestions. Generally it's a very sterile environment and also something of an echo-chamber. These gods don't come across as muscle-heads in general but they don't come across as smart, intellectually curious, open to new ideas or radical actions etc either.

    The somewhat ironic thing is if we go by the general summary of what Vida promotes then she'd hardly be likely to attract intellectual types either. It's not that she's against them but she has quite a simple and straight-forward doctrine and a lot of the Vida races are muscle-heads to some degree. She is open to new ideas and radical actions and also does promote competition and generally intellect is the ultimate weapon but it's still somewhat ironic that it's the more "bookish" type in Alda who has the more extreme muscle-heads on his side. There was a reader who commented on this and Densuke responded (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) "busted!".

    Vida also has more intellectually inclined gods on her side. Starting with Ricklent. We can probably assume Peria too. My guess is that Botin would be closer to Vida in this regard - the background notes on dwarves notes that "Perhaps because their ancestral roots lie in Zantark and Botin, while they have exceptional Strength, Stamina and Vitality, their Agility and Intelligence are a little lower than that of humans."
     
  2. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

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    There are other gods who were the type to recruit intellectuals, however Vida is not anti-intellectual while Adla in his stubbornness is. this comes from Vida being open to change and new ideas, while adla is not. between the 2 she is the obvious choice for a creative type.

    Adla might be bookish but not in a creative way. He is the type who would pull up the same passage over and over to prove his point,and ignore that the text has been proven wrong and/or retracted for years. He is more akin to the type of dogmatic scholarship seen from religious fundamentalists then from scientists, which can drive anyone creative away from him.

    Vida is not the intellectual but she values them and is the type to listen to what they have to say. She supports growth, development and adaptability. Through this she helps create the environment for the researchers and creators to be properly nurtured and do their jobs.
     
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  3. jubjub3000

    jubjub3000 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah and as a result of Alda' s stagnant attitude, all of the inventive people get suppressed in his lands meaning that the fact that vida "let's life grow" on its own, she has more inventive people doing what they do best, inventing (creating) technology for the betterment of her believers.
     
  4. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

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    The inventor inquisitions from Bellwood's church would not help either.

    You also need to remember that this world sufferd from a serious genetic bottleneck. They population was reduced well below the threshold for a healthy genetic diversity, and allot of of the creative people were probably killed or left with Vida when she went off on her own. Adla's worshipers could very well have killed of the majority of their creativity millenia ago, and are likely suppressing much of what is left.
     
  5. Mesaphrom

    Mesaphrom Well-Known Member

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    He actually reminds me of that one scene from harry potter where hermione tells harry "That is not how the book says it is done!" and he responds "But this way is easier". That is bassically how I see Alda, someone who follows the instructions of an antiquated book made with outdated knowledge.

    She is also willing to accept and learn from her mistakes, she even said in her introductory POV chapter that she was wrong, that she could have done things another way, that if she had talked about it with Alda then things may not have happened like they did, but even so every kind of talk they could have done was destroyed when Alda attacked. And one can see that she learned from it, instead of trying to do everything by herself she is actually depending on others and the moment a solution was presented she actively gave her support. Think about it, would Van's missionary work have gone as smoothly as it did if Vida did not give him and Darcia her 'seal of approval'?

    And I still think that one of the major problems Alda have have to do with how Heroic/Subordinate Spirits are ascended, they have to be well know believers, just look at Fitum, he was not an adherent believer and he almost immediately went against Alda's orders, Nines too, she may be working under Alda but she doesn't seem to be a believer of him and just be doing what she can given the situation, I would even say that the reason not many Subordinates of the others gods have made an apearance may be because they don't want/have to help Alda aside from their actual job.

    In other news, here is a absolutely official art of Van's son, again this is really really officia and totally not DS3 fanartl:

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Mesaphrom

    Mesaphrom Well-Known Member

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    That same purge may have even left behind an unconcious fear to be creative in everyone, after all at the time of Belly's church there may not have been that many who didn't followed Alda and their descendant may have grown up hearing about it, even now there doesn't seem to be many people who try to invents things that don't use magic or alchemy in some way.
     
  7. jubjub3000

    jubjub3000 Well-Known Member

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    yeah, i remember that due to their bellwoods extremist views even alda's extremist church in the amid empire thinks they go to far.

    so yeah, bellwood most likely killed everyone who tried to make the equivalent of "clear glass" or a "telescope" without magic somehow being involved.
     
  8. anteopta

    anteopta Well-Known Member

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    magic or not, anything that only had the notation of advance was hunted down.
     
  9. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    Van: On reflection, maybe "Bahamut" wasn't the most auspicious name...
    Borkus: Kid, remind me again how many miles long Pete is these days?
     
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  10. jubjub3000

    jubjub3000 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    bahamut from shingeki no bahamut

    heaven and hell have to work together to defeat this thing.
    it's only defeated when god and satan sacrifice themselves to seal it (they can't kill this fucker)

    edit

     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  11. Mesaphrom

    Mesaphrom Well-Known Member

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    Specially when the Bahamut is a freaking giant fish/whale monster! Poor child would never live it down...

    I just notice but, was Pete named that becauseof Pete's Dragon? Maybe the Densuke hater Elliot so much he wanted a giant centipede (is he even a centipede (hundred feets) at his point!?) to eat him?
     
  12. jubjub3000

    jubjub3000 Well-Known Member

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    how long is pete? cause i think the last time i heard his length, it just said that he can wrap around a fort or something?
     
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  13. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    Alda is driven by a complete lack and rejection of ambition. Alda sees ambition as evil.

    That's already starting to happen, but Alda is denying the truth anyway. To truly change his mind, Alda must also be completely unable to throw cheap excuses at the discrepancies between reality and his assumptions.

    I said once that it's true of Rodcorte, and I say now that it's true of many gods. Alda was born with a specific role that does not involve a whole lot of introspection and self-reflection. Now he is doing work beyond his job description, which requires exactly that.

    Regression is probably the scariest aspect of not using the status system.

    "Practically"? Don't beat around the bush. It is an anti-intellectual stance. In a world of absolute sameness, nobody learns anything new, and the day you stop learning anything is the day you become literally braindead. To clarify, intellectual progress is generally proportional to experience, which requires change. This can be any kind of change, from science to politics to culture trends, but Alda is directly opposing all such changes. Therefore, while Alda isn't consciously trying to dumb down his followers, that is an inherent, inescapable, and obvious consequence of his goals.

    It's also 100% of the reason Alda's side is losing. You reap what you sow, suckers.

    Those who don't think for themselves are vulnerable to not just bad ideas, but also to mob mentality. Mob mentality is the antithesis to intelligent individual thought in large social groups, and an echo chamber full of yes-men is effectively designed for mob mentality. I view mob mentality as too pronounced in the modern human condition, as it has little to no rightful place in the important functions of today's society.

    This means the conflict between Alda and Vida is really just a conflict between the intelligent and the simple. Gee, I wonder who will win... :blobsmirk:

    While mildly amusing, it's not really ironic. Unlike Alda, Vida is not against intellectualism. If this is ironic as you say it is, then intellectuals would flock to Vida despite Vida's anti-intellectualism.

    Also, the simplicity of Vida's doctrine is not at all a bad thing. It means only that Vida doesn't ask too much of her believers. In contrast, Alda's complex doctrine has caused confusion about what Alda wants most, splitting the religion as people interpret the doctrine in different ways. Alda's doctrine can also be a bit overbearing and overly formal.

    And Alda isn't "bookish", unless you mean that he holds the book that is Curatos, in which case he isn't so bookish anymore. He is reserved and formal, but he's not particularly smart or well-read.

    Busted for what? As strange as it may seem, being smart is not necessarily a requirement for leading the faction with all the smart people in it. Case in point, Vida and her allied gods figure out war strategy, while the intellectual Van works on tactics and logistics. In this sort of system, there are clear goals in mind and all the work is delegated to the people who know what they are doing. This works, and Vida's own disposition has little to do with it.

    The more I think about it, the more Alda seems like a bad cop.
    Alda: "Stop in the name of the law!"
    Vida: "I didn't do anything wrong!"
    Alda: *produces own doctrine and points to a passage* "By the book."
    Vida: *squints for a closer look* "We already agreed not to use those laws."
    Alda: "A likely story." *produces steak*

    Wait, is that really the name? Holy shit! :blobfearful:

    I cannot see Alda and Guduranis working together to kill Bahamut. :blobxd:
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
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  14. jubjub3000

    jubjub3000 Well-Known Member

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    Can I stroke the wabbit george?

    edit

    the dk war (lennie and george running away from the law in the opening)
    first vida/alda war (lennie stroking curlies wifes hair)
    second vida/alda war ("can i stroke the wabbits george" "just think about the farm lennie")
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
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  15. jubjub3000

    jubjub3000 Well-Known Member

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    So, they are fucked in one more way than predicted.
     
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  16. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    Busted in that while the things that Vida promotes tends to attract muscle-heads, it's Alda's side that has a bigger problem with muscle-heads.


    It's something I made up! I wouldn't be surprised if Van goes for a name from Mesopotamian legends if he's aware of the origins of the names of Tiamat and Marduk.



    Incidentally, I started reading through the author comments again. The first one is rather interesting.

    In response to reader asking if the "Evil God of Sinful Chains" (罪鎖の悪神) has an ability related to "sin" and whether that in Bellwood's extreme actions he unconsciously piled up sins, Densuke replied "Yep, in fact Bellwood had terrible affinity with the Evil God of Sinful Chains". No idea what are considered sins though but the word for "sins" here is more like "bad karma" than "illegal actions".

    Incidentally, there's no in-world evidence that the "Evil God of Sinful Chains" was on Vida's side.
     
  17. FussyBadger

    FussyBadger Well-Known Member

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    I don't know but if I had to make an educated guess I'd say probably bigger than a 100ft. I mean that length seems nightmare inducing as it is but I don't know where nightmare inducing starts so whatever it is for you double or triple it.
     
  18. LokiTheAccursed

    LokiTheAccursed Well-Known Member

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    I think that the Evil God of Sinful Chains has the power to "chain" other beings and the chains strength is based on the targets "sins"
     
  19. jubjub3000

    jubjub3000 Well-Known Member

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    I would say 300-400m at least
     
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  20. kari-no-sugata

    kari-no-sugata Well-Known Member

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    Quite possibly. To take an example from another series, in Fate universe, Gigamesh's "chains of heaven" are more effective on more divine targets.

    Incidentally, Densuke said in another comment that this evil god wasn't actually that strong. So it's easy to imagine Bellwood hunting down this particular god expecting it to go easy and having zero fear about his "sins" (since he doesn't recognise them) only for it to go terribly wrong. Hah!
     
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