LCD Warlock of the Magus World

Discussion in 'Latest Chapter Discussion' started by Kelvk, Jan 22, 2016.

  1. Book Magus

    Book Magus Active Member

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    The short answer would be "benefits"? He is an ethernal almighthy being. There is no such thing as "people of his own world" anymore. Everything else is just like ants in the ground. He wont slow his walking to refrain from stepping on them.
     
  2. Viola

    Viola Studio Ghibli Fanboy Mother of Learning Fanboy

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    To what are you referring?

    Are you referring to the time when he was under an illusion after just breaking through to Rank 5 and the Illusion brought him to a close copy of his original world.

    Or are you referring to the blurb at the end of the book in which he was beginning an invasion of another Universe as to proceed on his path to Rank 10.

    In the Former he went on his murder spree to protect someone. That is both Good and Evil depending on which end of the receiving you are on. He did it because he didnt want someone to die then he realized it was an illusion and just said fuck you all please die so.....

    In the latter he is invading another universe for benefits... just as he invaded the Flame World, just as he invaded Magus Towers, Pocket Dimension, Other Clans. The increased scale makes in no more or less evil.
    Scale doesn't affect Morality or Motivation to do Good or Evil.
    Kaylin is not motivated by a need to do good or evil. He is motivated by self interest only. Be it for benefit or a whim.

    That is why he isnt Evil but Chaotic Neutral.
     
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  3. Gin_Hindew

    Gin_Hindew Well-Known Member

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    I always considered Leylin to be Lawful Neutral because he follows his own code of self interest, his code was:

    1 Get benefits
    2 Eliminate risks as much as possible
    3 Help allies as much as the price is affordable/have a good time

    And every law can only exists in the space left by the previous ones, i never saw him straying from those laws, a chaotic neutral would change his own laws to go after a new benefit, i think regular plot armored MCs are the true chaotic neutral because the plot protects them from the consequences so they can go and do stuff on the heat of the moment

    BTW, by the synopsis Devourer Of Destiny looks like the time Leylin killed Baelin to harvest his fate as the regular concept of the story

    https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/18730/devourer-of-destiny
     
  4. mrttao

    mrttao Well-Known Member

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    Whim + Self Interest are NOT the same thing.

    Chaotic neutral is motivated by their whim and sometimes said whims will make them act the hero for no benefit of their own.

    Self interest is always acting in your own benefits. The concept of enlightened self interest (the idea that it is in our self interest to create a stable society which is not a jungle, thus sometimes act contrary to your benefits for the sake of maintaining the social order that protects us from the jungle) doesn't apply in the world of cultivators, only in the real world.

    Self interest tempered by compassion, empathy, cammardrie, or other such things would be normal and healthy behavior. Self interest to the exclusion of all other things, could potentially lead to enlightened self interest IRL... but in xianxia world, self interest to the exclusion of all other things is basically Leylin. Where every single action of his considers only his benefits.
     
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  5. Viola

    Viola Studio Ghibli Fanboy Mother of Learning Fanboy

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    Law vs. Chaos
    Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

    Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

    "Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

    "Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

    Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.

    Devotion to law or chaos may be a conscious choice, but more often it is a personality trait that is recognized rather than being chosen. Neutrality on the lawful-chaotic axis is usually simply a middle state, a state of not feeling compelled toward one side or the other. Some few such neutrals, however, espouse neutrality as superior to law or chaos, regarding each as an extreme with its own blind spots and drawbacks.

    Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral. Dogs may be obedient and cats free-spirited, but they do not have the moral capacity to be truly lawful or chaotic.

    Lawful Neutral "Judge"
    A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.

    Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.

    Lawful neutral can be a dangerous alignment when it seeks to eliminate all freedom, choice, and diversity in society.

    Chaotic Neutral "Free Spirit"
    A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.

    Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal.

    Chaotic neutral can be a dangerous alignment when it seeks to eliminate all authority, harmony, and order in society.


    So I got this from http://easydamus.com/alignment.html

    I feel they explain they alignment system very well.
    Given these explanations i think Leylin falls into Chaotic Neutral Far more then he does Lawful Neutral.

    Plus I think Lawful Neutral more implies a lawful nature towards a higher authority than it does towards the rules you choose to live your own life by.
    Leylin is pretty much the embodiment of a free spirit which falls under Chaotic Neutral.

    As a side note Leylin has discarded Laws for greater Benefit in a sense. He severed the laws that tainted the path he wanted to create and dumped them in his Overgod weapon.
    Though I dont make my point on this I just wanted to add it on the side.

    Side: Was Devour of Destiny perhaps made in response to this aspect of WMW?
    I dont know when it was started or conceived.

    @mrttao I added in whims primarily because of one instance I remember. When he was in the Sky Library and gave his extra Knowledge Points to that random girl he had no interaction with but was in the library with him. He had no connection to her and gave her something of such high personal value to her on a total Whim. Wasn't planned or anything. That's why I added in Whim.
    But I do see how I accidentally conflated the two. Poor wording on my part I didnt mean to do that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  6. mrttao

    mrttao Well-Known Member

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    first chapter of devourer of destiny was released 2018-07-27
    wmw was released 2015

    so unless the author of devour sat on it for more than 3 years before writing the first chapter then wmw came first
     
  7. mrttao

    mrttao Well-Known Member

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    Being less wrong doesn't make you right. Lawful neutral might be a worse description of leylin, but this doesn't make your claim he is chaotic neutral correct. Also some rando website is not an authority. Crack open the player handbook and read the actual official description yourself.

    Anyways, lawful and chaotic are both stupidly defined alignment. Anything can be lawful or chaotic with how stupidly they are defined. Lawful character adhere to pilosophy or code... so an anarchist is lawful because he believes in the philosophy of anarchy. It is just plain stupid. Not to mention all the official examples of chaotic is literally insane lolrandumb people who do things like wear mismatched clothing at random.

    Anyways, leylin doesn't care about law or chaos, he will respect tradition when it benefits him and fight it when it doesn't. He even discusses how only an insane person will try to overthrow a system that benefits them when discussing his position as a noble lord.
    The notions of lawful and chaotic are distractions to him towards the true path of personal benefits.

    Leylin is Neutral Evil, concerned only with personal benefits to the exclusion of all else. Willing to go to any length and cause unlimited harm to gain personal benefits.
    Also leylin's path of laws is literally the laws of "Prime Evil". He is the Prime Evil and will exist so long as evil exists in people's hearts, and have power on everyone who has evil in their heart

    Also, I am reminded of the fact that MC intentionally removed the "chaotic will" infecting his bloodline to make himself and his bloodline more emotionless and cold and calculating. So, he can't be chaotic as he literally used magic to remove chaos from himself.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
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  8. Lokumi

    Lokumi 『The second greatest trash of society』

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    Yeah, I didn't the point of the discussion, leylin is evil, I mean a guy who train another guy just to eat him later ? (Ansel & Gretel anyone ?) This is totally evil, not chaotic or lawful (lol on lawful), he was maybe at the beginning neutral, but the more he advanced the more he became evil...
     
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  9. Alone Hades

    Alone Hades Active Member

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    Leylin is pure Neutral Evil. He is an egoist. Every thing and action is calculated by benefits/consequences ratio. He is always planning something(only for his own profit of course) and he will never lose his mind over his own or others whims/wishes like some Chaotic. Leylin can torture and inflict uncountable amount of mental pain on others for lulz, if problems won't await for him after the deed. He can do some good deeds too, if there are benefits in it or because of his blood realtives who were good to NE guy. There are no moral and restictions for Leylin etc. But any of his actions will be quite bland, because they were calculated from the start, this is NE nature, such chars are always unemotinal like robots, as an example you can take: liches, assassins, spies, dark mages(over 150 years old), elders and methuselahs(from World of Darkness) etc. They have no emotions or whims of the weak flesh, only lust for power and knowledge.
    In conlusion: Leylin is pure Neutral Evil guy, bland and unemotional as he is, because autor took the concept from the D&D and created MC by a rulebook and didn't even try to make some adjustments.
     
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  10. TheDeadApostle

    TheDeadApostle Well-Known Member

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    I would disagree with this, and even go as far as saying that it almost sounds contradictory. We say a person is selfish when he/she disregards others' well-being and operates solely with the aim of self gratification in mind. The key word here is self and so long as the main and intended beneficiary of an action isn't the self, then an action cannot be regarded as selfish. Affection, then, can't be selfish because the person holding it prioritizes, to an extent, the well-being of another human being over himself/herself.

    Of course, this is unless you want to go down the road that reduces the end of all human action to selfish motives. In that case, I'll end my argument here.

    But it shouldn't be so small that it barely matters. No matter how lofty a goal, if nothing else really matters to you other than reaching it, you're defunct as a human being. Assuming Leylin's family/clan was slaughtered by a being that would always be more powerful than him, he wouldn't do anything. Now, this in itself isn't a problem, and going up against said being would be suicide, but Leylin wouldn't feel bad about the matter for more than five minutes before moving on to his next scheme.


    It's not that he does nothing, it's that he never makes any significant sacrifice for them. I agree that he showed some affection for his second wife, but this affection was always secondary to him. It was never really important per se and the author never fails to make this painfully clear. This goes back to my prior example of giving a dog left-over bones. That isn't really kindness. If you'll instantly and without conscience sell the bones and leave the dog to starve if necessary, that isn't kindness.


    I would disagree with this. I haven't read too many wuxia/xianxia but I believe I know my way around a fair bit. In ISSTH Meng Hao wants to control his own destiny, much the same way Leylin wants to arrive at the truth. But attaining his dao isn't all that matters to him i.e. whenever any of his friends is in trouble, he doesn't feel like it's stupid to risk or even sacrifice his life for them. In Martial World, Lin Ming wants to reach the peak of martial arts, and that is essentially what the story is about, but he recognizes how pointless that would be if everyone else he knew was killed. Even in Desolate Era, where Ji Ning wants to resurrect someone, that isn't the only thing that matters in the story he doesn't hesitate to put his life on the line for his friends. These aren't stupid choices. They're human ones. Now if Leylin was a coward this would be more bearable, but he isn't. In fact he seems to actively scorn such a way of thinking. To him, any form of idealism is hot garbage.


    I read A Will Eternal and I half-agree with you. Bai Xiaochun gets a lot of lucky breaks. Leylin does as well, however. It just isn't as apparent. While Bai would pull a Chekhov's gun to just barely beat someone he ordinarily shouldn't be able to. Leylin would fight comfortably with the same. He has a lot of lucky breaks. It just so happens that his fights aren't as dramatic because his lucky breaks often put him clearly over the opposition. From his obtaining of the warlock bloodline to getting the control of numerous weaves, all of those wouldn't be possible without prior, minor lucky chances. As a matter of fact, I'd put his AI chip's existence as one of the most massive lucky breaks I've seen in wuxia. So despite him being pathologically focused and all, luck still plays a key role in everything he does. He doesn't have plot armour per se, but his luck (despite what he claims) is far from average with all the fortunes he "stumbles" across.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  11. TheDeadApostle

    TheDeadApostle Well-Known Member

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    But there are also good MCs that don't fall into those categories.

    Near the end his AI chip produces stats that peg his alignment as True Neutral and Lawful Evil. Now I don't inherently have a problem with evil protagonists (so long as they're sufficiently human or entertaining), but I'd say he's pretty evil. He's motivated by his own desires and doesn't care much for what gets in his way so long as he can eradicate it. That's not much different from a standard evil villain. I suppose D&D alignment classifications can peg him (as you say) as chaotic neutral, though. Still, in real life, I wouldn't peg a mob leader without moral restraint and who can apathetically torture/kill/maim other human beings as just a "neutral" human being.

    I do think he has the most important traits of psychopathy, but I'm no psychologist.
     
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  12. Viola

    Viola Studio Ghibli Fanboy Mother of Learning Fanboy

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    So by that logic unless he is an absolute perfect match for something then he is actually nothing.

    That spoiler blurb is a really good example for a Neutral Evil argument but he doesn't fit the mold perfectly so.... he can't be that.

    Sass aside I'd be open to changing him to Neutral Evil as to me it is the closest to Chaotic Neutral.
    But first let's address something. You brought up not reading the random website and to crack open the Players Handbook. Well to make that sure of a comment you must have read it or have it memorized before definitively using it as your point... so why not share it to back yourself up instead of telling me to read it myself. That way you can give your reasoning alongside it. Just what I would do but that is just me. If the goal is to actually convince the person you are making points to that is.
     
  13. TheZephyrStorm

    TheZephyrStorm Rock God

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    Maybe lawful evil, just not the laws everyone else follows. He has rules that he follows and he’s quite orderful, despite being the greatest asshole in history.
     
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  14. mrttao

    mrttao Well-Known Member

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    It is worth noting that that is explicitly by the world of gods system, and he seems to be going more by ADD rules on that 3+ editions.

    For example, he specifically notes that it measures magical energies. He took a devil made magic sacrificial dagger that drank the life force and souls of people to slowly transform them into half devils and he modified it to ONLY feed on life force, remove the devilification, and not taint the body with "evil energies" (significantly removing its efficiency, but also removing the tithe to the original devil lord who invented it).

    He then hypnotized minions to use this dagger on other humans to example and ensure that the process goes correctly.

    He explicitly noted that unless they are exposed to certain magics, all humans and animals innately "true neutral" in magical alignment. Priests for example will be normally baptised by their gods which transforms their alignment which in turns transforms their mind

    This was all done to allow him to murder innocents to feed on their lifeforce to advance his cultivation without being detected as "evil" by the system of the world of gods. All the while he was aiming at cultivating the sins as laws and merging them into the law of Prime Evil.
    Of course once he was strong enough he dropped the pretense.
     
  15. userunfriendly

    userunfriendly A Wild Userunfriendly Appears!

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    its important to remember the whole concept of Law and Chaos per the modern D&D system can be traced to Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone series.:blobtongue:
     
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  16. Viola

    Viola Studio Ghibli Fanboy Mother of Learning Fanboy

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    They a good series of books?
     
  17. userunfriendly

    userunfriendly A Wild Userunfriendly Appears!

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    basically, Moorcock INVENTED the modern fantasy genre. At least the doom filled, morally ambiguous anti-hero genre.

    The Champion Eternal cycle by Moorcock are considered classics, and while at times hard to read, due to the violence and slaughter, (Elric is called Kinslayer, for killing his cousin and sister/girlfriend) you will see so much that influenced modern fantasy.

    And YES, its frikking good books.:aww::aww::aww::aww:
     
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  18. willenstrauss

    willenstrauss New Member

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    isnthe selfish? he dvoured two great worlds and more, possibly even whole universe or will do when hes strong enough

    no lawfull at all, but not depising rules, as long as he is the ruler. he is neutral

    evil ofc, he can torture others at will to nurture himself, thats obvz evil. neutral would be the case that he accept others casulties as a behavior of his actions, but to torture and extract resentment and refine it to expand his own soul is evil. if he enjoyed doing so he would be chaotic evil, but its only a matter efficient usage of resources most like his old teacher of alchemy would do if he had the wits

    as per violate morals it doesnt apply to anything, even lawful good goods do that all the time by enslaving everyone on the realms for faith energy, morals are the weakling job
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
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  19. Bachingchung

    Bachingchung Well-Known Member

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    This popped up after ages, which is really funny considering I'm reading omniscoent reader right now.
     
  20. TheZephyrStorm

    TheZephyrStorm Rock God

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    Just finished rereading this again. Still great. The author note at the end mentions his next book, Semi Martial Artist Hero and I hope it gets translated. Hell, I hope all his books get translated.
     
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