Discussion Can I just rant here? K-Authors taking down TLs.

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by Toasty_Minzy, Mar 25, 2021.

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  1. Toasty_Minzy

    Toasty_Minzy Well-Known Member

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    I'm tired of Korean authors taking down harmless international translations that have no effect on their Korean revenue. All the best novels keep getting taken down because of the Korean authors. Tbh I don't even understand why they are so offended by the translations when #1 - tl groups are NOT taking credit for their original work. #2 - Korea makes it IMPOSSIBLE to access their original novels without a Korean i.d. and phone number. So the chances of even fullfilling their "well go ahead and read it at the original site to support me" are null and void when you literally can't. And #3 - The chances of having their novels even potentially translated by an official English website are slim to none as well. There are hundreds of Korean novels, and even manhwas, out there and only a very slim percentage get picked up by official translators like wordexcerpt, tapas, or webtoons. I genuinely don't see the harm in these authors just letting these small group international translations go. I don't even think the tl groups even make much, if not any at all, money on doing these translations. And if anything, in my uneducated opinion, having smaller foreign tl groups pick up their novels encourages more media buzz around their original works. That just makes it easier for a paying translator to sign an official contract translation for their novels like they want. Overall my point is I'm annoyed and I don't get it. I feel like this rarely happens with Chinese or Japanese translations so I just don't see why they're so concerned with abolishing foreign translations that don't even effect their intended Korean audience. It literally feels like every time I pickup a new Korean novel, it gets shut down before its even fully translated.
     
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  2. Green Apple

    Green Apple Actually I'm secretly an orange.

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    Well. There probably more reasons to that. First reason is not all authors would be happy when they learn that their work is being translated without their permission (stolen essentially). Second reason is that they not necessarily have the rights for the translation. Third reason even if you ask the author about it, they might feel it is a scam or sth. Fourth reason, korean readers might go and read english version if the original is paywalled and the translation isnt. Which technically does affect their revenue.

    All in all, translators should respect the authors decision even if it is not the best one in the eyes of the translator group. And in the end of the day unauthorised translation of regionally locked material simply doesn't sound legal.

    Also it did happen with chinese translations too, but in a different way. Initially when Qidian entered the market, it would DMCA popular translations and take them over. Basically letting people do the dirty work of growing audience and redirecting it to themselves cause they were legally on a high ground.

    As for japanese works I think they dmca too, and I remember there were threads about how harsh they are about it, but i wasn't reading it in detail so cant give much info. All I can guess is that because they usually have Web version and Light novel version, they are more lax about web version and strict about light novel which is oriented for selling and making profit? But don't quote me on that.
     
  3. kurisomething

    kurisomething Reader

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    Essentially the difference between JP and KR/CN is that KR/CN is heavily pay-walled. As long as you don't touch light novels, JP is fair game. KR/CN’s webnovels have paywalls which means even if it isn’t published as a medium, money will still be lost by online translations.
     
  4. Molen

    Molen Well-Known Member

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    unauthorized translation is another form of piracy, alot of translator never ask the author permission to translate (not only in novels, but in manga too).
    there are even novels that have authorized translation, where the author allowed only until a specific chapter. After the authorized translator stoped translating it, another translator continue to translate.

    there are also "fan fiction" of novels that actually already have official translation, not to mention those bad translation that actually looks like fan fiction instead. bad translation can actually damage the novels reputation too

    i have heard a rumour about a novel that will have official translation / publication, but the publisher cancelled because that novel have been fantranslated, not sure if this is true or not. (maybe this is not a novel but a game instead, i forgot)

    dont forget that alot of people wont buy novels that have official translation because there are fantranslation of it that you can obtain for free

    even if there are only small chance of these things happening, why bother to risk it happen

    remember this, the authors are the one who own the right for their novels (most of the times), if they want to take down translation, it is their right to do so.
     
  5. chencking

    chencking [Daolord Grammar Nazi]

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    The JP LN DMCAs came from Yenpress, not Japan. Likewise, Qidian DMCAs came from webnovel.com. As far as I know, KR novels are the only ones which are regularly DMCAed with no plan to translate them. So these comparisons are a false equivalency in my opinion - particularly since OP addressed how these novels will likely never be translated in their original post.

    Also as a counterpoint to your theory about lost revenue - I have been hearing a lot about Korean translation hunters. Basically bored internet trolls try to hunt down small private translations which are not available to the general public. And from my understanding authors encourage this. So it's not necessarily about revenue.
     
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  6. IceLight303

    IceLight303 Well-Known Member

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    Well it's their right. Though I do wish it was easier to get the novels. I can't register for a lot of the stuff I read. Honestly anything not on jjwxc, I can't buy it more so for manga or web novels. Though more and more Japanese manga and novels are going online so I can buy them. Also I hate how little authors get from the money paid to read their work. If an author setup a Patreon I would be even happier to give them my money.
     
  7. chencking

    chencking [Daolord Grammar Nazi]

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    Rumors are not credible. Especially without any supporting evidence. There are plenty of examples to the contrary, where fan translations seem to have made series more appealing to publishers.
     
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  8. PotatoZero

    PotatoZero Well-known Potato

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    If I've spent a single cent to read the translations I might be qualified to comment on this, but otherwise, meh
     
  9. Ddraig

    Ddraig Frostfire Dragon|Retired lurker|FFF|Loved by RNG

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    Did people really forget Baka tsuki dmca situation? Has it been too long that it just history now?

    JP translations regularly get "asked" to be stopped - yes, even wn due to novels/ln getting licensed.
    On top of that authors do request translators to stop on rare occasions. Half of the time you have no idea as the translations take so long that it can be anything from author's request, translator mia etc.
     
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  10. Molen

    Molen Well-Known Member

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    even if there are alot of things that become more appealing to publisher because of fantranslation, there reverse is also true.
    We might never heard about it, but i am pretty sure that there are some novels/manga/game that will never have official translation (published in the west) because it has been fantranslated before.

    lets say a manga that has never been translated before is actually pretty popular in japan, then it is adapted into anime. at the time the anime air, a translator started to fantranslate that manga into english until it reach a point where the fantranslated manga story are further than the anime. There is a chance that the manga wont have official translation, because why bother? a free fan translation are already floating around, not many people will buy the official translation. there is also a chance that the manga will have official translation, but it will still wont sell that many copies (at the very least until it reach the same arc story as the fantranslation manga, that is if the fantranslation stoped, i doubt it). This will reduce the publisher profit (and the author too if the author has a percentage of sale agreement), thus the publisher might decide to stop tthe translation, which will hurt the author financially too. this is an if scenario, it might not happen, but there is a chance for it to happen. I am pretty sure that some author consider this, thus make them take down fan translation
     
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  11. ATrueStory

    ATrueStory Villainesses, Historical Shit, Noble Circuses

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    You don't see the harm because it is not your work, not your copyright, and not your intellectual property.
    You are a reader. You are the end-user. You are the end of the process. By your rant, you don't even understand how the industry works.
    The only thing that concerns you is whether you can read the panel or page or not.
    You don't even see nor understand why these authors take down your new favorite. Yet, you feel so confident in dismissing their concerns that lead to the takedown.
    If you don't care or realized that they are being harmed, I don't see why they should care if you read their latest release. If you're annoyed, so what? The authors are the ones losing business and their IP, not you.


    Money isn't the only factor in this.
    And don't @ me when it comes to media buzz. it's saying that 'buzz' makes people open up their wallets. Professional experience says it doesn't. People will want free stuff and if they can't have it., they will pirate it anyway.

    FYI, South Korea has higher and stricter copyright laws compared to China. So don't even compare the regulation between manhua and mahwha. This gives them a better and airtight legal right to takedown Korena mahwha coz you know these materials were made and published by an SK company/publisher.


    I know three or four translators that don't give a shit and they got the novel they are translating shut down. They think just because they can translate they are holier than thou.

    Really? Where's the proof? Is there a financial report or a spreadsheet supporting that? Like actual figures, not just downloads from a torrent site or likes from a social media account of a fan translator?
    So what if its appealing? is it gonna put money to the creators rather than the translators?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
  12. asriu

    asriu fu~ fu~ fu~

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    baka host some ln which have or on progress of official translation that legally can be shot down, sure they also have wn such as konjiki word master, shield hero, mushoku tensei also temporarily coiling dragon and desolate era before split cuz non agreement? over donation stuff
    ask hell_ping that kyubei was on baka tsuki high up for better info

    the poster you quote may refer to wn that posted on syosetu which have free access
    as for wn asked to stop translation on novel legal serialization is there any wrong with that? the translation may have no legal standing on it, enforcement is different matter tho~


    as poor cat who only read free stuff if this cat think not worth cent on it just roll away~

    lol yeah
    similarly reader who give "critic"
     
  13. Green Apple

    Green Apple Actually I'm secretly an orange.

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    I dont see how it is different given that the legal owners of translation rights are sending DMCA.

    Also. OP is actually contradicting himself. He stated i quote "All the best novels keep getting taken down because of the Korean authors.".
    Tell me, how come best content doesn't have a chance to be translated officially? As I see it - the stuff which is popular has more chance to get an official translation.

    I'm convinced that with the increase of demand for korean novels on the interntational market, the korean publishers would be more open to authorizing legal translations (for a profit of course). WW is an example that it is possible to get legal rights for the translation of korean novels.

    Revenue is only a part. I can totally understand authors supporting "trolls" that hunt down people that take their stuff without permission.
     
  14. chencking

    chencking [Daolord Grammar Nazi]

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    Again, if scenarios are disingenuous and not conducive to anything. You can make anything remotely sane seem reasonable in a what if. You need some sources to provide any kind of credibility.

    Your opinion that the best novels will be officially translated is irrelevant to your initial response. And quite pointedly, OP is complaining because they claim a lot of novels they read are DMCAed and left untranslated. Presumably that includes official translations, since they go on to name translation sites.

    Also, as a direct contradiction to your claim that publishers would translate the novels if there were not fan-translations, many KR novels have been removed from WW. Those novels will presumably never be officially translated since WW.

    And as another counterpoint to your implication that fan-translations deter official publishers, I pointed out multiple examples of such groups using DMCAs to take over popular fan-translations. Furthermore, WW has been known to absorb fan-translators of popular projects and make it official. I also posit that aggregators are likely to be much more harmful for their business model than fan-translations.
     
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  15. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

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    Tbh, the translators don't really need to stop translating if they don't want to.

    Like... Did you ever see the number of aggregator sites out there? It's by no means small... And they all live through decades without anything happening to them even though they host all those novels that were "forcibly" taken down.

    If the translator wants, they can easily ignore any take down requests from the author and continue translating just fine. Worst comes to worst they'd just need to anonymously publish their translation at an aggregator site and they'd never get caught from doing that.

    At the end of the day, I just think the positioning of the translators that stop their translations because of take down requests is kinda silly tbh. They know the author is against it, and they know that they will receive a takedown request if the author finds out about them... And they know that this request is in itself meaningless because they won't be in legal trouble if they choose to continue translating even after receiving the takedown request.

    ... And yet, if they do receive the request, they stop the translation and move on to another project. To "respect the author's wishes" or something... Like... Okay? You weren't respecting them until now, but now that you received an official notification to stop, you decided to respect it? I just don't get it.
     
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  16. flowingcloud

    flowingcloud Well-Known Member

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    You do make some valid points, except you are only thinking on the consumer side. If you put yourself in the shoes of the author, you might think differently. First, you need to understand that in Asian culture, someone translating your work might not be something necessarily positive. Also, a translator translating your novel (assuming without your permission) is technically illegal, as you are stealing their intellectual property. You make the same argument that many manga readers make:

    Why can't you let them translate it if it's not going to get an official release?

    While it is true that fan translations have led to the popularity of manga/novel media, fan translations also discourage official companies from purchasing copyrights to the overseas (English translation) version. What fan translators do is in a very gray zone, thus when an author asks you to stop, I believe you should respect the author's wishes as long as they are very polite about it. In fact, if you discuss with them, they might let you translate it. Fan translations discourage companies to license series as some fan translations might be constantly caught up and thus no reader will read the official.

    Another reason why authors do not like foreign translations is that they do not know how well your translation skills are. You may be a MTLer for all they know and there is no way for the author to find out as they are not capable of reading the foreign language it is being translated into. No matter how many credentials you claim you have, there is no effective way to proving that to an author without an official contract of some sort. Then at that point, you're basically purchasing the license yourself as a translator.

    I am not saying that fan translators should stop, but you must understand that what they are doing is not morally correct either. Authors do own all the rights to their series (until they sell them off), and they themselves dream of being popular overseas as well. Thus, fan translations sometimes might kill their dream of making bank overseas, so of course, they would stop fan translations to keep their dreams alive. Even if you make a lot of clout through fan translations, there's no point if no one buys them. Mushoku Tensei would be a relatively good example. No one really buys the LN because the entire series is translated on Baka-Tsuki (now DMCAed). The novel is insanely popular, yet does not earn much because the content is already available for free. The same can be said for Spice and Wolf and many other big-name series. Instead, they rely on other gimmicks such as goods to promote their series. Therefore, I can not really agree with your rant. While readers think in their best interest, they never think about the author's interests as it is not as convenient for them.
    Not rumors, it is true. It is not a deciding factor, but it is a huge factor whether something gets licensed or not in English. Fan translations do not actually make it "more appealing" to a publisher. The current licensing industry just looks at whatever is popular in Japan and brings it over, as overseas readers' tastes have assimilated with the current Japanese market. There are very few times where they hire the fan translator to do the official translations, however, never does a fan translation look "positive" in a publishing companies eyes. With enough marketing, it would do a way better job than a fan translator's FREE translation.
     
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  17. Saorihirai

    Saorihirai Well-Known Member

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    again with this topic...:blobconfused:
    I swear this comes up every time, literally the same things being repeated over and over again. copy paste format:facepalm:
     
  18. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

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    This, there to many leachers who will not read the commercial release if free is available. Even if the published version is far superior.

    Plus they even have to consider what if someone picks it up as a "free" translation after they license the series. The Fall I noticed a series J-novel.club had licensed had someone start a WN translation just days AFTER they started working on the LN and had released the first chapters/part, when all that had been there before was half of the first WN chapter from a year before. Though amusingly J-Novel.club was progressing much faster, and had Vol 2 completed long before the WN translator finished Vol 1, when the LN's had extra information and scenes.

    Translators, legitimate ones, need to pay money to license series. So to them why would they invest when someone is going to undermine them translate it for free to get add revenue and likely a patreon/some other form paywall to get money for themselves sending none of it to the actual author or rights holders.

    On Mangadex a couple times I saw a group drop a series because it had become licensed, only for the people to complain about no longer getting it for free and then cheer on the group who immediately picked it up. Things can be popular, but that does not matter if most of the people who want to consume it will not pay to consume it, and will cheer on groups circumventing the licenses.
     
  19. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

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    Tbf, sometimes the release isn't available on the person's country, or sometimes the reader themselves simply has no money to pay for official releases, so it's understandable that they'd be happy to get new pirated releases.

    Like, I get happy whenever something I like gets licensed and receives an official translation... But you know what frustrates me? That Mirumo De Pon wasn't fully fantranslated and there is no Digital Release of the official translation by VIZ, so I can't read it because it's not available in my country.

    Or like... Sure, I'm really happy that Spice&Wolf has an official translation, I have 14 volumes of it at home... Because I'm a working adult and can pay for books.
    High School students OTOH have at most their allowance which is often times pitifully small, so... Their choice is to either buy like... 1 book per month when they wanna read 50 books per month, and to spend the rest of their free time doing something else... Or to pirate it. It's completely understandable that they'd much rather pirate it at that point.
    Ah, and let's not forget not everyone lives in a country with a strong currency. When a 10 USD book costs 50 of your currency, it becomes a lot harder for you to consider buying books with an official English release, but not an official release for your home language.

    Oh, and let's not talk about those garbage companies that license mangas and that you can only read it by paying directly at their phone app... As in, I can't read on PC.
    Sorry, but I won't download your shitty app to read anything. If you can't make a release I can read on my computer, then I won't read it and I'll praise anyone that pirates your release in order to allow me to read on the PC. I honestly hope those types of licensing companies go bankrupt because I hate them.

    So uhn... Yeah, I can understand getting angry that people picked up a licensed release and were cheered for it, but I think it's important to also realize that many readers simply can't afford to buy the official releases, so they just have to resort to piracy if they wanna read.
     
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  20. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

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    I keep seeing people make this excuse, but outside content regionally locked by billing information, and import restrictions, nothing is really limited by country any more.
    If you want something physically, there is almost always a way to get a physical copy.
    Digitally there are VPN's.
    Many highschool students have part time jobs, that is a large part of Fast Food.
    There are ways to load phone apps on computers though, like by emulating the phone software in a virtual machine.
    That is not really an excuse, especially for a luxury good. It is just someone trying to rationalize their entitlement.
     
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