WuxiaNation drops The Dark King + Madsnail's commentary

Here's the thing.. You could have screwed QI over by getting money for all of those.. Then given Gu Xi a fat read packet for it. Instead, you made it so that almost nothing goes to the author since you give them chapters of your translated work for free.

So for the future. Never, ever, give up your work for free and make contracts that protect you from dickheads who pretend to be your friends. Friendship and business don't always go hand in hand.

 

Now I'm really curious on how you were actually back stabbed.

 

A donkey come out nowhere and kick his head and he become muddlehead

 

Ok you still believe in people so i don't <- this way i think you can accept it, right? (For the intent-money part of our argument)
Now for the author part.
Based on what you said i can go translating a novel even if the author reach out to me telling me to stop cause i think is a bad person, right? (nice one on C.Brown man thumbs up) I'm a fan of the novel who cares of the man that wrights it... (that person is a big fan of dogs and i love cats so he deserve it).
How do you know or who gave you the right to judge people?
So i can stole your translation and make an aggregator cause i think you're a bad person and don't deserve my respect?
On your logic there are a lot of plot twist avaible: choose the one you like the most.

ps i think you know this:
almost all book-novel's authors have even the right to translate their work?
So if you translate and share someone's else work you are committing a crime.
If you profit from it that's more serious cause you give a quantification of the possible damage you made.

 

The problem is not 'how' I got back stabbed but 'why'.

I have already stated that I'm not against people who translate for money. I'm not as naive as I've been accused to be otherwise I wouldn't be living the life I do. But I still keep to my last statement that any and every company using the services of the NU and Reddit's (r/noveltranslations) have to be banned.

I would expect someone to translate 2-3 chapters a week as a hobby but it would mean that it would take ages to finish a novel that has more than 1000 chapters (a bit of motivation may increase the speed of translations and make the translator aim to finish the novel). Anyhow, I have read through the comments but most of the readers seem to be in here for the 'drama'. The ones who has taken their time to respond are mainly attacking me as if I've accused of GT, QI or WW something that they haven't done.

Anyway, good news is that we have come with a model (not a business model money in mind but something totally different) that could legitimize the fan-translation without going corporate and at the same time keep our core values together. Hopefully, in few months we can realize it.

 

I mean that's exactly what you did though lol You claimed WW has lied to the community and to the best of my knowledge that hasn't happened so I would love to see some proof and here is your exact quote where you decide group everyone together. "Now, NUF and r/noveltranslations are the community. But the community is being blatantly lied, sweet-talked by these same companies."

Edit: I mean aside from QI which has constantly lied to the community neither GT (well before being brought out by QI)/WW/Volare blatantly lied to the community yet coz QI lied you group them all together.

 

It sure was lively here, sadly I wasn't feeling well yesterday. So, let's do it now.

1. All of this was started by MadSnail rant. Do you know that in English there are words like explicit and implicit. Yes, you're not explicitly said you denied our rights, but implicitly you did. You did named calling and complaining about posts againts MadSnail statements. MadSnail accused WW of harming community and you explicitly agree with him, yet so far, you can't prove your claims and yet you said those people (which are part of your said community BTW) complaining just because they are fans? Novel translation is a very different beast than football or any other sports. The members of novel translation community mostly are fans of novels, not translators or translation groups. You have to be an outstanding translator and consitently translate good novels to have a huge number of fans. Translation group has to consistently have good translators and novels to have a huge number of fans. I believe that human beings are generally good, we like to do the right things, so unless, you've had done something that really crossed their bottom line, then you won't invoke their angers. QI did horrible things consistently, so most community members aren't comfortable (to say it mildly) with QI. GGP blatantly lied and still acted high and mighty, so his fate with the community is almost the same with QI. And you, my friends (MadSnail, you and wuxianation), I'm now thinking that you're on the way to do both. Do you really understand what you're saying? Right now, is there anyone that a fan of both QI and WW? I centainly like WW more than QI, but I hadn't even followed any of WW novels for a long time. All the posts I did, I always did it with proofs to my arguments, yet you're the one that kept avoiding and disregarding those and always stick to your flawed claims. What have I done to get the label of QI's fan? And the reason why I seemed like in WW side, it's not because I'm a fan of WW. it's all because your claims were false, WW is in the right this time. I'm a fan of the truth.

2. Somehow, I got the impression that you said about WW was the 1st (changing donation to patreon), again that's the impicit message I got. However, let's use your word, popularised for now. I think you got the wrong words here. WW implemented Patreon way long after Patreon become popular. WW was the 1st (novel translation group) to successfully integrating Patreon into the mechanics of novel translations and got outstanding results with their Patreons, so others copy their formula. Like others have said in this thread, Patreon is better than donation. WW found a way to make Patreon works for them. In the ideal WW world, there is a number of free chapters a week, when certain amount is reached in Patreon, the number of free chapters increased as well. I think, this way Patreon is much better than sponsored chapters system (donation), it has the effect of the donation system, but for much stable period of time, so the free readers (leechers/lurkers) got more chapters, and the patrons got the reward of reading chapters in advance.

3. Again, MadSnail accused WW of doing things that harmed the community (and you're agree with him) and your so called monetization of novel translation along with translation rights are among your claims. I've told you that before CN WN, these things happened to JP mangas and novels translation and animes fan-subbing. So Qidian would do what Qidian always do, they will play their IP's and they will monetized it to the fullest. And here you're claiming it doesn't matter what Qidian did or didn't do. Are you that desperate to bring WW down regardless that WW never do whatever things you claimed WW did? Now, let's talk about doing it all for the community. Guys, please correct me if I'm wrong here. I centainly felt that WW do acted in the best interest of the readers (community) as far as possible. On the other hand, I read in NUF (so the proofs are there), QI claimed that aniything they did is for the good of the community (not the exact words, but something along those lines), then GGP also said he won't do something that will harm the community (again not the exact words, but something along those lines). Of course there was a post on NUF that claim that a certain translation group was the only translation group that cares about the readers/community (again not the exact words). What is the name of the group again? Oh, yes, if I remember correctly it's your group wuxianation that makes those claims.

4. Now, MadSnail said that he didn't do it for money and you again endorsed that he didn't do it for money. Why I mention OwlHoot? Because he did what MadSnail claimed. Although my facts about OwlHoot weren't exactly correct (I didn't check the facts before), but OwlHoot still valid as an example of a translator that doing it for love. Since January 2016, OwlHoot had his own site, a free blogspot website. Since Google owns blogspot, his website displays ads from Google (alexa rank is 17M something). He only posted his translated chapters in his website. Now, I will ask you another question. Do you know foxs? He is the translator of Da Tang Shuang Long Zhuan. He posts his translation in spcnet, he translate at his own pace, he doesn't ask for donation, he doesn't set up patreon and he certainly not recruiting translators. He is someone that from what MadSnail and your claims about translating for love should be. Here, I will say that MADSNAIL AND WUXIANATION ARE IN IT FOR THE MONEY. As my proofs, here I will post my previous questions again. So tell me, what is the purpose of wuxianation again? You have your own website (maybe even with your own VPS/Server), you had ads on your website, you received donations, you set up patreons, and you're actively recruiting translators (don't tell me it's for free without potential monetary gains). MadSnail painted corporation as evil and monetization is bad, yet you said he considering to go the corporate road. Do you understand that a corporation has one purpose and one purpose only? MAKING MONEY. You said Patreon is bad, yet wuxianation uses Patreon (even before going the corporate road). OwlHoot and foxs who were really doing for love.didn't accept donation, yet MadSnail did. I DARE YOU to proofs your claims about not doing it for money and that all you do is for the good of the community. I gave you example of 2 people doing translation not for money. NOW I DARE YOU TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS AND PROVE YOUR CLAIMS.

5. Seriously? I can't remember the exact words, but there is a saying like "WHEN ELITES COLLIDE, PEASANTS SUFFERED". When giants went to wars, the shrimps would be the first to suffer. Why can't the shrimps benefit from QI? Just do a modified version of what MadSnail did and the shrimps would hugely rewarded. Select a not so popular novel (in China) from Qidian, but has potential to be a huge success in international market, translate it like crazy and pile up chapters (500+ would be ideal), post it at around 12-14 chapters a week, promote it until it become popular and keep up the translation speed., then wait for QI to call yoou. Just sell your translated chapters to them if QI's contract is not to your liking. And if you're doing it for money, please don't give the money away to someone else.

6. When is this so called backstabbing happened? Before or after the agreement? Please, be very careful with your answer. If it's before then what's the matter? It shouldn't affect the negotiation, right? If it's after, then what's the matter? It's done anyway
Again, here I will post my previous questions with some additions. You said MadSnail is the translator of TDK and also a co-founder of wunxianation, so logic dictate that to reach a deal then MadSnail had to sign the documents of the deal before he signed it. HOW ON EARTH can your coworkers and QI's person stab you on the back? Don't tell me you don't put every letter on the agreement documents under a magnifying glass? Or worse don't tell me you give POWER OF ATTOURNEY to your coworkers? Are you NUTS? Didn't you learn from WW experince dealing with QI? If that really the case then are you sure the author got the money?
If MadSnail didn't completely read and understand the docements of the deal and signed it anyway, then I would say that it's not backstabbing, it's frontstabbing in broad daylight. Has this so called backstabbing really happened or is it just a fabricated events to justify MadSnail's rants?

 

Then what was that supposedly "backstabbing" story about? Unless you @madsnailwn explain more on this part, so far your rant and demands makes you look like a whiner.

 

Oh, man. Now it's getting more and more interesting.

So, you said you don't sell it, but you give them away, but you make sure that Gu Xi got all the money.
If you don't sell it then where is this money that Gu Xi is supposed to get come from? WTH is going on? Were you trade them for money that mostly would go to Gu Xi? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if Gu Xi is a beneficiary of this agreement, then the agreement should be at least a three parties agreement, right? Yet, you said you don't know whether Gu Xi got the money and that it's not something on your conscience. AHA! IS THIS THE REAL YOU? Jeez, you said you're not doing it for money, you said you gave all the money to Gu Xi, but it's not in your conscience whether Gu Xi got the money or not. INTERESTING! REALLY INTERESTING INDEED!

P.S.: Please, don't tell me that this madsnailwn account isn't legit.

 

1. If i'm a paying customer, I would look at the donations and the patreon curve, irregardless whether how fast the translator (or slow) can translate, its already a "transaction". A business. If i'm looking it purely as a fan, I'm going to look at myself and ask "do I want to support a translator", or not. But the moment the intent of the translator is about money, then its also noteworthy to judge by the value of the buck, no?

2. On your number 2, please do provide insights as what I may have misunderstood you. Like, really. Still, I don't speak for Snail, but I would speak what I think that we both (me and Snail, at least to whichever extent I know we agreed to) agreed about.

3. It does sound ridiculous to you. To me, it doesn't. I've said it again. To agree to disagree, its fine. I still think that the territorial marking that these corps are doing in both direct and indirect manner are squeezing the small timers.

4. If he wants to talk about it further, he would. But I'm personally, on emotional level, invested? I think that's the word. Yeah. So I'm talking because I want to. It doesn't make him any worse. Polarizing? Maybe, yes, to my understanding signs point to such. That whatever i'm saying is spitting Snail with mud? Nah.

I'm not sure why you're dragging Volare into this. This is going to be full of giggles. No disrespect for Volare, though. The point I've made is that I see Snail's post as something that I personally share a similar view. Certain groups have already "backers" (not licensing agreements, that's a different thing) and they're already sending indirect signals "you cross this line, you don't go over that, because of this that this that". Snail identified these corps, but he hasn't mentioned Volare. So, I'm not sure why you're digging Volare.

However, you're probably underestimating how groups have influences, especially if the series that they translate have a good following. Some readers read, and don't care about the groups. Some people have vested interests in the groups. Either way, when these groups made certain things popular, they're also influencing the scene. I don't see the transition from a donation model to paywall model as 'inevitable'. Again, its a question of intent. The minute, the moment you have an inkling of idea "I can make money of out this", that's it. The intent changes, no longer "this is a good story that we can enjoy together".

On the other hand, I think somebody raised this example:
"But what if the translator said something like "i've taken my effort to get legit". So, erm, if you feel like making my financial burden a bit lighter for this legitimization, please consider to donate"? How does that fall?" Again, its intent. Personally, its a bit of a grey area to me, but it'll be fine in time, because time tells, and time never lies if the said translator was doing it for the sake of it, or for profit.

You see, the "website that cares" incident, was never mentioned. You're using that as an excuse that because Snail's made a move earlier, and compounding with this, he has to be the bad guy. I feel that it's hillarious. The way I see it, the monetization methods by corps are worse, especially when it was masked behind "we're doing this for the benefit of the community", which I personally see to it as pure bollocks.

You know, let's get some things straight.

1. Snail wrote something. You don't like it, so you shoot him. Its fine.
2. I shoot you because I don't like what you shoot Snail. That should be fine. But in your case, it ain't fine.
3. You shoot me for shooting you, that's fine.
4. But I shoot you, for shooting me, that's also not fine?

What kind of 'regulated free speech' is this? LEWLZ

Let's just agree to disagree, and the more you want to argue, I'm fine. Am I standing up for him? Oh yeah I want to shoot at people who mouth off bad words at Snail. But does that make me his spokesperson? No. In fact I've repetitively mentioned that I speak for myself, but I'm going to add what I feel comfortable based on what I've known with my interactions with him.

The problem with you claiming I haven't proven my claims is that, are there any claims to prove other than me saying "I'm speaking up for Snail just because I like to?" There is a difference when I'm making a statement, and I'm making an accusation. Just to be very clear,

1) I made a statement (or probably in your words, accusation) that Wuxiaworld, QI and others who are now monetizing aggresively is bad for the community.
2) I made a statement (or probably in your words, accusation) that the monetization whilst claiming "its for the benefit of the community" is bollocks, oh wait, doesn't bid well for the small timers.
3) I made a statement (or probably in your words, accusation) that Snail is hurt from the backstabbing that QI had a hand.


Let's go through this one by one? I've made posts before detailing about intent from a reader, and the possibility of intent of malicious intent of monetization. Now let me ask you a question. What is the prime purpose / goal of a corporation? My opinion is profit first above everything. Whether its long term or short term profit, that is the primary purpose / goal of a corporation. How many of these corporations are there in the translation scene? At least we know those who have declared themselves to be corporatized. This is not even including those who have not announced yet.

What have these corporations done? A tit for tat move that endangers, polarizes the community. You have groups, zombie-like hordes, ready to pounce the moment a word like Qi, WW, or GT, or whatever corps name is mentioned. Its well documented, even if the rose tinted glasses of people say "omaigawd but these ebil corp did this first, they're just retaliating!". That's all fine and dandy, after all if you are a corp, you have to protect your ricebowl.

When you're selectively picking a side, you're already in their game. Qi's side? WW's side? Some unknown side? Its still a side. I think on a personal note its really fine to pick a side. That is part of human nature, to align to something, or some entity. Its in the DNA, I suppose. However, just because one corp does it 'better' than the other, doesn't remove the fact that these corps have always been looking at one thing: profit. How does them looking at monetary profit would 'profit / benefit' the good of the entire community? It is near damn imppossible. But one thing is certain, the moment money is touched, you're looking at the thing as a product, not as a process of sharing, a process of learning. Because you're now consuming a product, or producing one. To expect customers who are on the receiving end to behave like "omaigawd, this isn't a product. This is a process, a fan share bla bla bla!" is insulting, and downright humiliating. It is also funny that in that midst of this thread somewhere I forgot somebody wrote "you can be a fan of the story but not a fan of the author". Then the same thing is quite apt here. Do you read the story because its a good story, or because you like the author / translator? Change story into products, and there you have it. The continuation of this thread proves that people have selected sides, even if they claim that they're "true fans, true readers". Worse still, when you have readers who are not willing to purchase privileges (as in non paying customers) get degraded with terms like leecher and lurkers. Since when the act of reading has been attributed to who pays and who doesn't?

And let me ask, who has done well in ingrating such a mindset? Corporations and their monetization practices. You can speak because you pay. You can have a say because you're part of the privileged. You can flout things around because you're special because you offered moolah. IT is funny. It is hillarious.

The same thing when we ask translators, why do you seek legalization on your translation status? Because so that only you can translate it? For what? Because you want to translate it? Or, do you want to make money off that translations? If a translator only wants himself / herself to translate it, going to as far seeking legitimization for it, go ahead. I think that's a great move. I sincerely wish all the best. In the process of doing that, a lot of money will be spent. A tremendous amount of time would be consumed. However, the moment the mind says "let's make money out of this", then the said person is no longer doing a translation for the sake of translating to share. It becomes a business.

If corporations have been upfront, then customers would be more honest in their judgement. Instead, we get corporations spewing "its for the good of community, no matter what has been done", and what do you get? A community that is shaped by the corporations, laughing as they go to the bank, while the paying customers still think "oh i'm doing great service to the community look at me I pay top dollar to somebody I like". Its a transaction, but the corps want customers to think that its a 'good old days service' while selling them, and making them count the money that they've been sold off to. Its funny.

The way I see it, you're defending an entity without looking truly at the big picture of the effects these corporations have done to the scene. That is fine. That is your view. You asked me to explain where I'm coming from, and I believe I've done so. Have I ever once said you're wrong on this, wrong on that? No. All I've been saying is that you have the rights / privilege to criticize. So as I. In fact, I believe there are multiple posters claiming i'm wrong. So what even if I'm wrong? At least I've exercised the privilege of responding to a statement, an accusation, or responses. Or whatever it is called. The funny thing about free speeches is that even if you think the idea is wrong, you can call that person out. But the weirder thing is that, it is implied to me that when (let's assume you're right, and say that taking Snail's side is wrong), then therefore pointing a rebuttal is wrong, in a society that supposes practices regulated free speeches? That is why free speech isn't truly free (in essense, and in pun). There is a price to pay for it.

Your statement about the 'shrimps', has always been consistent that all shrimps want to be a part of Qi. I doubt that is entirely correct. A lof of shrimps may want to join Qi. Some may want to join Qi. But all? No. Quantitative wise, all 'shrimps' want to join Qi is far from the truth. You're seriously lumping those who are translating stories from 17k or Zongheng, or other (not so known to me, at least since I don't know) into that one pool and say "they want to join QI"? I'm questioning the authenticity of such audacious, bold claim. Those working for Qi would clap merrily to your statement.

On TDK's agreement, I don't have the rights to speak on behalf of Wuxianation. But i'll share what is probably public knowlege by now
1. Snail didn't sign up to be a subcontractor for Qi. Or third party contractor.
2. Qi offered to pay Snail for all the chapters WuxiaNation has done. Snail said give that money to Gu Xi instead. Whether Qi honours this, or not, nobody is sure except Qi and Gu Xi alone. Even Snail is not privy.
3. Snail can translate at his leisure, if he so chooses to translate further chapters of TDK. (at the point when Qi brought TDK to a certain retarded novel site)

Qi agreed that if there are further chapters, the arrangement above will be repeated.
As far as I understood back then, Qi had no qualms if WuxiaNation wanted to pick up any Qi novels. I haven't got a chance to look at the entire wording, but that is the gist of what I understood.

On the backstabbing, I think you're misundestanding some things.
1. Somebody/Somebodies backstabbed Snail.
2. Qi had a hand in it (not as in first party, LOL)
3. Snail found out that Qi had a hand in it, but you can't get backstabbed by an external force. You can only be backstabbed by an internal force, hence... backstab.

What will those backstabbers do? I don't know. But i'm sure in time, their intentions would be leaked out anyway. Is it worth a drama to watch? I don't know. All I know is that Snail was hurt, he contemplated if going corporate would have done it (like if you can't beat them, join them kind of the thing) and follow the flow. He contemplated. I don't know what's his actions.


The funny thing is, TDK wasn't at any point licensed by Qidian. So from my understanding, Snail can't possibly have any form of copyrights to the translation. They came asking him if he wanted to join Qi. Snail refused. He likes the story, but to the point he's going to slave at Qi.

However, any furthermore, and I can't because i'm not part of the WuxiaNation administration. That'll be putting mouths into their own words (but they haven't spoke anything about it other than the announcement, yeah). So I don't see what's the point of lawyers, etc. Qi came for something that is theirs, and Snail said "yeah you can have it. but since you're so nice, can you be nice to Gu Xi?"

Its funny that even that is perceived to be profit-making. I've known a thread that people called him stupid for not pocketting the money. 500 x a theorical sum? That's still quite a sum. But Snail walked away, and I think today showed it was a good decision in light of whatever happened with QI having a hand in it.

 

Its interesting that you're suddenly changing your tune from "protecting the investment" to "omaigawd you're not doing the right thing".

 

Two different interpretations, which I think you've realized by now. However, if you change the term author to translator, its the same thing, no? Then the money question again, and that throws thing into a connodrum.

 

A simple solution to this seemingly unending argument. How much would you pay the translator or author as a wage? If they are making less than that currently then there is no overpaying or anything to complain about.

 

That is a rather difficult question, because that question assumes that translators and authors must not earn above a certain amount to be called as an author or translator. Isn't that in itself a weird question? If an author writes, if a translator translates, does money qualify them into "more author than author / more translator than a translator" ?

That would be very demeaning to them.

 

No i'm not complaining. I pointed out that i have no issues with translators who take money. But that's a job not "fan translating". And i got tired of the "for the community" slogan so maybe i have exageretad in my posts.
The things i need to point out is that if you start take money even just a little (to run site for example) there's no way to say where you stop taking in.
For the records what people do with their money is not my concern. They are free to spend it wherever and whwnever they like. So if someone wants to donate all of his possession to a translator i'm ok with that.

 

I am guessing you are alluding to more fan translator than the other lol. It's pointless in my opinion. Labels are just to satisfy ego.

You make a good point, personally, I would have taken the 500 x X amount. I don't treat money from companies as dirty or whatever but even if I did not want the money, taking it and donating to charity is what I would have done. Big companies like Qidian don't need a few thousand dollars of charity.

I really wish this thread can be put to bed. You guys seem to have such wonderful ideas, maybe you can share some with me and help me run a better website.

 

finance adviser is pricey
it impressive how this prolonged~

 

Stubborn, proud and love to have the last word, with this army of defects who brings more troubles than benefits what you'll expect? but that's me, i confess. If i'm in the right mood, i can engage in pointless and endless argument without care, so bring it on

 

Not what I'm saying at all.

To me, a fan translation is a translation done by a fan, and any translation done by such is one up to the point it's an officially licensed one. While a fan could certainly be doing the translation, official is official.

I just think that money is a poor judge here because its needed even for fan works. Translation takes huge amounts of time, and hosting isn't free. This is why that virtually all translators have some sort of revenue from them.

You've completely missed the point.

Every single things you've listed in the above quote has literally nothing to do with "fan translation". My point was that "fans" are not inherently altruistic and it does't equate respect to the author or even the work.

All a fan is, is someone that really likes a certain thing, and wants to experience and share it with others. Fans regularly commit crimes and pay zero attention to the wishes of the works creator or rights holder in the process of doing so.

Yep, all the translators, fan or otherwise are breaking the law, unless they are some of the few whom are licensed.

And actually, that's not really how it works as far as damages go.
1) Translators are being paid for their time, they aren't selling the works. This makes a difference, it's ad revenue that's actually worse as that's direct income from infringement and the translation itself is technically legal.

2) The big kicker on damages is willfulness. Willful infringement is a 3x damage multiplier, and infringement is calculated at a flat cost per instance.

 

It's both.

The why may be important to you, but the how is important for the context, argulably more important.

Personally, I'm at a loss as to how you were "backedstabbed" at this point.

Did a team member leave for another group?
Did QI decide to pull you off TDK?
Was the agreement breached or somehow misrepresented?

That's about all the scenarios I can think of, and only one of them could really be considered a backstab.

A member leaving because they want to get more tangible out of their work isn't a backstab, and you've essentially told us that you willingly signed all rights over to QI for nothing. They have the right to assign whomever to the work, especially in a case like this.

Only the third option seems like it'd really be one, only I can't think of what either party doing the stabbing would get out of it... because as you said you gifted all the work. There was nothing to gain.

This is insanely naive. NU was created for the sole purpose of tracking a novel made by the exact company you're trying to get banned from it.

You literally attacked WW. That's why you're getting drama. You made an insane, ignorant declaration that goes against the very thing those communities where created for. While at the same time saying you might do the exact things you're asking them to be banned for.

Ironically, if this is what I think it is, not only is it completely corporate, but it's literally them taking advantage of you.

While if you do it fully understanding what it entails, that's up to you, but calling for it as good for the community will see you a huge amount of backlash.