WuxiaNation drops The Dark King + Madsnail's commentary

@madsnailwn
I just want to know.all translator on you web not doing patreon or donation right or there some do it

 

For you are all fan translator (even those who earn 5000 $ per month), your point is the love and care for the story. I get it
For me no for me if you earn money you are working (it's not an offence).
argument closed

This line of thought has a problem. And that is exactly what i pointed in my post and you ignored all of the possible repercussion.
Your story the love you share for it exist becouse there's a person who wrote it. The least you can do is respect the author for writing it. If you can't do that you don't deserve to be a fan. That's my bottom line

no problem with this

 

Yeah, it's like stealing a diamond, renting a local, putting the diamond on display on that local, and "humbly asking" people to "give you money so you can continue displaying this stolen diamond on this local". You aren't selling the diamond, but you're still indirectly profiting from it (by displaying it).

"I'm so poor I can't possibly pay for this local myself, BUT if you pay me then you can keep coming here to observe this stolen diamond which took me a BIG effort to get my hands on, AND you'll also be funding my future steals! You win, I win, everyone wins!"

 

What if they're making $5 dollars a month, or just enough to cover their hosting costs?

That's the problem with the money definition. There are almost zero translations that don't attempt to recoup costs in some form, and the majority of them would otherwise be considered to be fan translations.

That's not a problem. That's a personal issue you're taking with people's behavior. "Fan" isn't a status you're granted because you did some great deed. It's simply a denotation of interest, and often a nod to fanaticism. You're trying to put the word on a pedestal like it grants some sort of moral high ground. It doesn't.

Being a good person has no impact on if you're a fan or not.

 

I'm not saying that shields them completely, but it changes how that money is looked at.

Ads are direct revenue that pay out based on traffic. Any suit for infringement is going to see that as quantified damage against the rights holder, as it's the exact method they use to make money off the works.

Donations and patreon are a bit different. They are undeniably linked to the infringement, so it's quite likely that they'll come into the damages in one way or another, but unlike ad revenue it's not a type of income that the publisher would be expected to earn.

This makes it much harder to argue that as a basis for a damage reward, reducing or potentially eliminating that as a source of damages.

Which was my point. Ad revenue is going to be a larger source of damages than donations.

 

Not really at least in this context, I mean the whole point of translating into english is so people who can't read the original language can read it. So if the majority of people who are reading it are people who can't read the original language there is no damaged done. None of the existing customers/readers of the original novel is being taken away. So I can't really agree with them causing more damaged than donation/patreon.

Granted donation/patreon do have much more leeway legally. I know that's how lot of private server for mmorpg get around things lol.

 

what host cost? go and ask around if there aren't any free platform out there
If you start your own site you are basically already cashing or it's your choice
this is what you find on some site of manga at the end of the chapter (a really popular one)

i have really to believe this? I mean if even they have problem chashing with the ad how can GT make 200.000$ (that's what you posted i think) per year?
For me this argument was closed but i don't leave you the last word we can go on forever
my point is clear i don't change my mind on this

this don't answer the problem i mentioned.
Aggregator can use the same logic

 

Previously I'd agree with you, but we now have sites like QI's and several publishers are in ad-sharing agreements with hosting sites.

What would really be different though is if ebooks were being sold unauthorized. That would be all the damages.

 

Ofc if said publisher is in the market as well then yes it is damaging although then it still depends. Because say if the novel doesn't exist on QI than no damage can be done because will they don't have any views to lose. Say if QI has novel X being translated and someone else translate and host novel X as well then yes QI take losses. But if QI don't even have novel X then there is no damage as nothing was lose.

Ofc doesn't make it any more legal but if we go into damage calculation then I don't se e where the damage would come from.

Speaking of ebook being sold with out authorization I found someone decided to copy Warlock of the Magnus World and is selling it as a ebook on amazon -.- Now that's straight up pirating although in a pretty dumb way coz that just leave such big trail with amazon.

 

I take it you aren't actually familiar with how free hosting functions? They generally have a very limited amount of bandwitdth, and they shutdown access to the site once that's been exceeded, unless you pay for a higher tier of service.

Once a translation gets moderately popular, it'll blow past those limits very quickly. This is why the vast majority of novels site have at least a few ads.

Revenue is not profit. Translator and editor pay, webstaff pay, licensing and related costs(negotiations aren't free, especially when they last months) and hosting costs.

And that's with text. Manga hosts are worse off because they much more bandwidth heavy than translation sites. Take the LMS manhwa for example. It's an average 15 to 20 panels per chatper, at around 1 mb per panel. That's 15 to 20 mb per chapter for just the image content. Content on a novel page is closer to 100k or less.

That means that displaying an entire 50 chapter volume could be done 3 to 4 times over for the bandwidth cost of a single chatper of LMS. And because novels generally release daily, instead of weekly, they maintain a higher average unique IP per day counts, meaning a higher return on traffic via ads.

Making matters worse for manga hosts, aggregation is extremely rampant, meaning they are losing huge chunks of their viewership. Fewer unique IPs means lower paying ads.

You're still not getting the point.

Who cares if aggregators use the same logic? They don't get a magic sticker that makes them okay because they claim they are fan translations. They are aggregators, and that particular behavior taints whatever they do.

Even if they do have their own inhouse translations. They are still aggregators, and that overshadows anything else.

Not to mention that's not even what we where talking about there. This was about how a fan can lack respect for the author while still being a fan of the particular work.


Anyways, my main point is that under your definition, a single ad makes the translation "non-fan", and that's just not a realistic representation.

 

U guys discuss the Dao
I run out thing to read thx u for the read
Meawhile i got my daily nuffie

 

Wow, I never saw a 13 pages thread that took this long to read... You people like to make walls.

Anyway, Madsnail has a point, but is also mistaken about something.

It's true that companies like WW, GT and QI are definitely not fantranslation, and it is true that their actions created a reasonably big change on this community... Which some may argue, was not for the best.

NU isn't a directory of fantranslated asian novels though, it's a directory of translated asian novels. This won't change, and as such... NU will not ban those sites, unless they break NU's policy that is.

 

It'll be weird to screw Qi over. For what? Just because everyone dislikes them, so its "okay" to screw them over? No wonder Qi is so okay with screwing everyone over, if "everyone" already ready to screw Qi just because its Qi. It is a very dangerous mindset, even for business interactions (as in business to business, not customer to business).

Oh boy, I guess I've to run around few quotes since you're using a quote within a quote. Some extra work, but I guess since I'll like to respond, sure.

Here, you're giving too much leeway to the translator. As in you're actually saying its okay for translators to have all that loads of cash, because they're in the position in needing to be thanked. That's what I interpret.

The problem here is that, a lot of these translators using this patreon model, especially to 'encourage' speedier releases, are already bound to corps. Be it those working for wuxiaworld, qi, or gravitytales, and others that haven't revealed themselves to be corporotized. If they're already corporatized, why should readers look at them with rosy tinted glasses and still call them fan translators? They should not be looked as fan translators at all. They're already for profit translators.

What do these translators have in common with corps? Their main objective is to maximise profit. Nothing else. Using your patreon example, if a person re-read the entire thing you type, but in the eyes of a "im a customer paying for value", then that person should have arrived to a realization that what they should have been paying less, would end up paying more because:

a) they're paying for the brand
b) they're paying for so called loyalty (thanks to marketting)
c) they would realize that they've been shortchanged for an illusion of speedier releases, due to promises of more chapters / ahead chapters.

Again, when these people align to corporations, they're NO LONGER fan translators. Its that simple. Snail didn't touch this, but I do.

What Snail touched was (for whatever time to repeat), is that when these titans earmark territories, (which you can see for yourself) , other translators also feel the pressure that they also have to join a side. If they like a story, they can't translate the story anymore for the sake of being perceived that they're sure to join this / that side. We've seen a lot of these threads in NUF. We've seen a lot of comments where "so this group picked it? I'm sure they're aiming to work for Qi / Wuxiaworld / Gravity". The scene and the choice of novels is large enough for every players (big and small), but now its being artificially squeezed down. And who exactly are squeezing it? These corps with their monetization practices (whether directly, or indirectly).


On your second quote

This is really funny. Especially when somebody kindly pm-ed me and ask me to read your other messages, then it dawned upon me that you're just digging this for the drama it can create, not because of the discussion value it generates. Especially when you insist on knowing "how" even when Snail personally said "why".

I'm just going to repeat that i'm not comfortable revealing certain interactions that I've had with Snail. Because it concerns about inner workings of the group, and it concerns about personalities and what they've done. There are no positive nor negative repercussions from revealing that. All it'll create is more drama, in the most unnecessary sense since its something you've been trying to goad. I know the how, its nasty enough to really encourage me to look at corporatizations and their money making schemes in this translation scene all with masquarading with the facades of "its for the benefit of the community" as complete bollocks.

Again, i'm not sure why you're dragging Volare into this. Have they announce themselves corporatized? Because if they did, then its fair game, to a certain extent (save naming them directly for whatever reasons apart from dragging them in, LULZ). You even said Snail said that, when I checked again the announcement, oh hey, Volare ain't in the shoutout. Let's say for a fact that Volare is already corporatized (but not a public knowledge. Again, fair game, but until they're proven as such, I'm curious why your insistence on dragging Volare. To create more drama? ) Funny, I didn't know that they've gone corporate. Do you know something that a lot of people don't know? Again, corporates with their money making schemes are the ones that hurt a lot of small timers who want to try their hand.

Its funny that there are translators who are unable to produce more chapters with a donation queue, but when suddenly changed to a patreon model, they're pumping more chapters consistently. Why? Money is a motivation. And that money is not guaranteed, if they don't perform. So why is money a prime motivator? Because these translators look at paid compensation as a profit, no longer as a form of thank you. Some of them are with corps too. Yet to have the gall to say "hey, i'm for the fans!" Those who took the entire thing hook, line, and sinker.... Oh god.... I don't know where to laugh. Sure, you have a positive image of the translator. You have a positive image of the corp. But to buy the entire lie hook, line, and sinker.... its hillarious.


As for the other stuffs that you disagree, its a matter of perspectives. Unless you're insisting that the perspective of yours is accurate and others are not the truth, then I'll challenge that.

 

Brasca, thank you for saying something.

Well, at least if Snail reads this, at least he'll understand. I'm sure of it *chuckles*

Because I share the same views with Snail (in a lot of ways), if any of my assumptions about NUF / NU are wrong, I apologize, do point it out. At least I've got word on how certain things are interpreted (such as the question I posed way earlier about why certain sites have not been banned, and why certain sites have been allowed continued presence in NU / NUF, but that was already directly replied to.)

Many thanks again.

 

I never said don't be unreasonable.. But seriously.. Don't give them things for free when they have been paying money to others and you say that you want to help the author. Do something like each chapter 30-40 or so then stipulate that it must be paid to x party instead. Win-win for everyone.

 

Ah, I see where you're coming from.
About this, I'm just going to share with you that Snail was more than happy to have Gu Xi had that "USD A x B amount of chapters". Even if it if sounded weird to a lot of people. The original terms wasn't like that (as in Yuwen would pay Snail, but Snail changed it and say "take it (The Dark King). Just pay Gu Xi, can you do that?"

 

Personally speaking, I have for a long time shared the view that transforming fantranslation into business wasn't a "good" thing... And well, I'm still of that ideology somewhat...

However, I kinda found myself in need of money, and I have no experience on working, so... The first things I did were to apply for work as an editor, and to start doing MTL... Well, I guess necessities sometimes overcome our ideologies.

So... I think the view of not calling themselves "fantranslators" anymore, but at the same time not being against it is closer to what is best... At the same time, considering how all this whole Qidian drama affected the Novel General and how some people seem completely desperate to defend WW in any possible occasion, and to attack Qidian in any possible occasion as well... I guess their influence wasn't much of a good thing on the community... Definitely good for the translators, and for the readers as well, but bad for the people more involved on the community as a whole.

At least it's how I'm viewing it rn.

 

So when Snail or you shoot then you're fine, but if I respond then I'm not fine? What's wrong with my responds? Or do you think that only you and Snail have the right to respond and I'm not? So far you're the one that make claims and when I responded to that and confront you, you always turn around and refused to give a straight answer. And now you didi it again, you're not answering my questions and you are starting to put words that I didn't say in my mouth.

When you made claims, especialy ones that tarnished others then you should give proofs, but in your case I don't really know, I called you out, give proofs, but you don't give a single respond. However, most of us in the community want the proofs of your claims.

I'll let you in on a secret, ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE ARE BUSINESSES, OH NO, I FORGOT SOMETHING, EVEN THE AFTER LIFE IS A BUSINESS, FOR SOME PEOPLE AFTER LIFE IS EVEN PRICIER THAN LIFE. Whether you like it or not the world is run by money, unless you can persuate the whole world to go back in time, get rid of all standard of payments and do barter instead. For someone that hate corporations so much, I think you should do what you preached (in line with Snail's rally), ban all corporations and their products from your life. How about starting with your internet, phone, and bank accounts? It's just a suggestion, because I think ones always have to do what ones preaches. Please guide us, lead us and be the living example that what you preached can be done (in case you don't know, that's sarcasm).

Why can't one be a fan of the novel, but not a fan of the author? I'll give you one example, an ironic one at that. I'm a fan of TDG (at least until around chapter 400), but I swear I'm not a fan of MadSnail (to be clear I'm talking about the author, not your Snail). So what's wrong about being called a leecher? I'm a leecher. It may be degrading for you, but I'll tell you another secret. FOR ONLINE TRANSLATION COPORATIONS LEECHERS ARE THEIR GREATEST ASSETS. Only online translation corporations that don't intend to survive ignore leechers. ALL PREVILEGES IN LIFES COST MORE. SO IF YOU WANT ONE YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. Welcome to the real world. You know that I really want to own severals castles and mansions, sadly the total amount of money I have can't even pay the monthly cost of even 1 of those castles/mansions. Can you please make a campaign to the all governments in the world to at least build and give away one mansion for one family for all their citizens? In case you don't know, that is another sarcasm. Before the invention of printing machine, books were handcrafted, so books used to be privileges of the rich people. Since the very beginning of its existence, books were priveleges, even today, for people living in poverty a meal is a luxury, let alone a book. While in USA, Europe and maybe Australia, you can read books in public libraries for free, sadly most countries in Asia and Afrika don't have public libraries. Books still are privileges of people that can buy it.

Unlike you (I assumed you're a paying customer that felt cheated), I think the other paying customers make their donations and/or become a patron happily. They did it to suppoet the translators or mostly to quench their thirst. They did it willingly and they like doing it. What they did make it possible for translators to go full time and translate more which increase the free chapter for the leechers like me, which in turn will make the community grow even more. The more leechers there are the more the online translation corporations earn from ads, so in the future for popular novels translators may not need patreon. So, translators translate novels legally and earn money from it (be it as employee or self employee), patrons get their perks, and leechers can read more chapters for free, they IP's holders get their cut. The industry grows and there will be more translators and more novels translated, the numbers of readers also growing. Which part of those is bad? If you insist that an illegal translator (which likely stop after few months) that translate 1-4 chapters a month in the past is better for everyone than a legal translator that translate 3-35 chapters a week at present, then please live your own life in the past don't drag us with you.

You argued that users, customers and the community pay the corporations. I have a question, are you also included in at least one of those? Are you a user? Are you a customer? Are you community member? My second question is how much have you paid to those translation corps that make you so angry? To be honest with you, I'm a user of those translation corps and I'm a NUF community member, I'm also a non paying customer of those translation corps, and frankly I'm ashamed (blushed) to say that I have not send them even a single penny.

Here we go again about the so called pure translator not tainted by money. You said that Snail is one. So far there are no proofs of that. I gave you 2 translators that are not tainted by money and your Snail is way off the marks compare to them.

Now, let's talk about doing it all for the good of community. Somewhere in NUF (so the proofs are there), QI claimed that aniything they did is for the good of the community (not the exact words, but something along those lines), then GGP also said he won't do something that will harm the community (again not the exact words, but something along those lines). Of course there was a post on NUF that claim that a certain translation group was the only translation group that cares about the readers/community (again not the exact words). What is the name of the group again? Oh, yes, if I remember correctly it's your group wuxianation that makes those claims.

MadSnail painted corporation as evil and monetization is bad.
- you (wuxianation.com) have your own website (maybe even with your own VPS/Server which isn't cheap)
- you had ads on your website, ads is one form of monetization you know.
- you said translating for money is bad, yet you received donations
- you said patreon is bad, yet you have patreon
- you're actively recruiting translators (don't tell me it's for free without potential monetary gains).
You said bad things about corporations and monetizations, yet all the things you claimed as bad that those corporations did, wuxianation also does. why don't you include wuxianation along with those bad entities?

Again you put words in my mouth that I hadn't said. You claimed the small shrimps were the ones suffered the most while they shouldn't be. I told you that small shrimps will always be the 1st ones to suffer, but on this particular case, the shrimps were the biggest beneficiaies assuming they were in it for the money. And the money now is with QI. Just do a modified version of what Snail did and the shrimps would hugely rewarded. Select a not so popular novel (in China) from Qidian, but has potential to be a huge success in international market, translate it like crazy and pile up chapters (500+ would be ideal), post it at around 12-14 chapters a week, promote it until it become popular and keep up the translation speed., then wait for QI to call yoou. Just sell your translated chapters to them if QI's contract is not to your liking. If you think that most these small shrimps do it not for money, and your they are the idieal translators then I think the only place suitable for them is only wuxianation. So for you translators that felt you don't do it for money and felt you're comfortable with wuxianation then join them. Here I will say that wuxianation do it for money, if you still want to join them then do so at your own risk.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if Gu Xi is a beneficiary of this agreement, then the agreement should be at least a three parties agreement, right? So thiis so called agreement will have at least 3 parties, QI's side, Snail's side and Gu Xi's side. Yet, you said you don't know whether Gu Xi got the money or not. If this so called agreement really exist and Gu Xi isn't one of the parties in it then either QI fooled Snail or Snail didn't really care about Gu Xi (assuming madsnailwn is Snail then he did say it's not in his coscience so this maybe the case). However I'm certain that Gu Xi has to sign this agreement if he is a beneficiary.

You said there was backstabbing done by wuxianation members and 1 QI's employee, and this backstabbing is related to this so called agreement. What we want to know are:
1. When did this backstabbing happen? Before or after the agreement? But whatever your answer is, it doesn't make sense. If it happened before the deal then it shouldn't affect the deal. It it happened after, then the deal has been done.
2. How did the backstabbing related with the deal? Logically, this backstabbing (if it really happened) should not be related with the deal, unless Snail did something that outside common sense.

I can't help but to imagine what it was like in early 1900s, when car began its existence. Maybe there were people that excited by it and supported it. Maybe a lot of wealthy people couldn't wait to have a piece of the pie. Maybe there were people that complaining a lot, calling the car manufacturers as greedy corporations, saying that it's all good with horse-carriage, but they were early buyers of the car and planning to open their own factory.

 

When had I ever said about "protecting the investment"? How many times had it been that you put words I didn't say in my mouth?

No, I don't understand at all about your so called two different interpretations. There were no "author" and/or "translator" words in my post. If this is you excuse then it only proved that you're replying (at least this time) nonsense without reading the content.