Discussion Huh...Piracy fixing anime streaming sites...

Discussion in 'Anime Discussion' started by Twilight Fox, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

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  2. elengee

    elengee Daoist Ninefaps

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    We'd probably both go to jail. :blobwoah:
     
  3. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

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    Speak for yourself. I'll just buy my way out.
     
  4. elengee

    elengee Daoist Ninefaps

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    I have more Nuffies though. So it'd depend on if it's a digital or a physical jail. :blobastonished:
     
  5. Deleted member 37987

    Deleted member 37987 Guest

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    In France the monopoly from one of the publishers is so big that their CEO is literally insulting people online and publicly or even threatening them along his clients, yet he stills makes billions.
     
  6. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

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    I wonder how hard it would be to bribe Tony to let me out of Digital jail with the test answers to his current semester classes? Theres definitely at least a 50% chance of it working.
     
  7. neogamer

    neogamer Cute is justice!「Maxwell 」

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  8. elengee

    elengee Daoist Ninefaps

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    Until he finds out they're incorrect, at which point you're doomed.
     
  9. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

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    The point of selling something is not to sell something that works, the point is to sell something.


    I mean look at Apple, they made it work.
     
  10. UsernameJ

    UsernameJ Well-Known Member

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    That's different. What you're talking about here is how it's not morally wrong to make safeguards to restrict data from being shared.

    Notice how this makes two truths that interact with each in an interesting way:
    -Data cannot be pirated
    -Data can be isolated

    What this means, is that for data that is available, it is not morally evil to access it. It also makes things interesting because much like how a vault is used to keep gold hidden, software needs to be written to keep data hidden. Like bank information, and personal information, et cetera.

    But this is a good example of the fact that the nature of data is to be shared because it is much harder to make a secure program than it is to build a steel vault.

    It is morally Good to create a program that stores data safely (encryption and whatnot) as well as it is morally Good to take advantage of data that is offered freely. These do not contradict each other. You cannot pirate data.

    And of course, it is an imperative to keep in mind that this is, for lack of a better term, the "theoretical" truth about these things. Putting theory into practice always faces some restrictions because theory is abstract and doesn't cover all the edge cases. For example revenge porn. Technically speaking there's nothing wrong with revenge porn. If you create private data and then share it with the world in such a way that it can be shared freely forever afterwards that's your fault. But making things secure is incredibly difficult when it comes to personal data, this becomes a logistical challenge of putting things into practice. That's why laws against revenge porn while "theoretically bullshit" are valid in practice.
     
  11. Fluffums

    Fluffums 【R-18 Researcher】【Seeker of Moe】

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    ... No, that's not actually what I'm saying at all. In fact, I would argue it is morally wrong to make safeguards against data sharing in a lot of cases - censoring inconvenient news and information is the trademark of a tyrant, after all. Not all cases, mind you, but many.
    You're completely ignoring the middleman, the person or group that makes things "freely available". By your argument, buying what you know are stolen goods is 100% morally correct even though it encourages morally reprehensible behavior. Your argument of "morality" is more along the lines of self-interest. It's in my self-interest to hide my bank account data. If you have my bank account data, it's in your self-interest to use it. Doing what's morally good is not the same as doing what's logically right for yourself.

    And this is as far as I care to discuss the subject with someone who uses the term "technically" when describing whether things are moral or not.
     
  12. Nimroth

    Nimroth Someone

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    I don't really buy the arguement that streaming services would improve as a result of people switching to illegal sites, they could be just as likely to just cut their losses and lower their investments instead.
    Also most videos that I've seen bring up the arguement tend to ignore the option to watch crunchyroll with ads without a subscription, as if waiting 1-2 weeks to watch an episode is "always" out of the question.
     
  13. asriu

    asriu fu~ fu~ fu~

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    maybe cuz most people are impatient like those who wanna read Qidian add block~ or there possibility it will never free or simple ignore it for da sake of argument~
     
  14. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    No.

    Competition and customer pressure aside, piracy is almost always a bad idea. There was a time when anime and mangas were entirely legal. Then fansubbers and fan scanlators translated and shared it within a closed loop through iRC. Then some profiteering individuals made websites, taking the hard work of the fansubbers/fan scanlators and the mangakas and anime companies, making huge profit with the only expense being the webhosting they use.

    Sure, pirating makes the stuff more accessible to everyone, but the producers of the mangas and animes can't benefit from it. The producers are not getting any income from pirated stuff. Whatever you do, if you don't give money through legal channels, they're not making any money. Exposure means shit when all it gives you are rants and hate reviews from westerners who can't understand your culture.

    Case in point, someone before me said this:
    Assume that only 1/5th people think like this and each of them pirated exactly 20 animes, then 19 animes will never receive enough income and will work at a loss. You can say a lot of things about authors and producers, but thinking up stories, drawing the stories and selling it to the public requires time, money and effort. If they're not making any income from it, then why would they bother? They'd just close their company and do something else more profitable, like farming salmon or eel.

    Sure, some would say that they should 'get good', but seriously, think about it, everything is a copy of something these days. Every ideas have been thought up in the past and what creators can do now is just giving their own twist to it. Telling them to 'get good' or "I won't pay for it" is like telling starving peasants to build the Notre Dame without being given money, food or rest. This is the kind of mentality that widespread piracy nurtures. There was a time when we go to a bookstore, got interested in a movie and buy it, only to find out that it's total shit, but we keep it anyway because somebody once created that. Sometimes you create masterpieces, sometimes you make shitty product, that's unavoidable in the creative industry.

    If a legal site sucks, then it simply means more people will move to their competitors. To avoid running out of subscribers, that site will eventually have to innovate for fear of going in the red. That's what capitalism is about, competition (ideally). Piracy will not solve the problem, it just creates a new one.
     
  15. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

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    Well its not like there a perfect solution! Giving money to websites like crunchyroll who just pay the author money for the right to host the anime isn't great either because then you have everyone trying to buy up all the exclusive rights to anime they can get. I am wondering how much money the rights to the anime even are...I would rather buy the anime from the author and give funds directly to him, but it doesn't work like that. Every company between when the author writes the script, to the TV station that airs the final product, wants a cut of the cash.

    And the argument wasn't to Pirate because we want the authors to go out of buisness, the argument was to pirate to see if we could orce anime streaming sites to add features to their platform to actually make it work spending money to get a subscription every season.
     
  16. Sabruness

    Sabruness Cultured Yuri Connoisseur

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    In this case, i think you're putting the cart before the horse. actually, the cart isnt even attached to the horse yet.

    I havent read through this whole thread but i dont think anyone's yet mentioned (if you have, sorry) that do or not do, we consumers (as in outside Japan) have jack squat all effect on the general anime industry. Sure, we might have a bit of an effect en masse on the licensing companies in the 'west' but they're always hit and miss and dont have an that well fitting of a business model in the first place. They also tend to get a little boned by the origin industry.

    tl;dr: Depending on the aspect of the topic, this thread is either over thought or rendered mostly moot.
     
  17. Randomreader123

    Randomreader123 Well-Known Member

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    Talking about the second part of your post arguing about my statement:
    "Assume that only 1/5th people think like this and each of them pirated exactly 20 animes, then 19 animes will never receive enough income and will work at a loss." -> There are really to much variables we don't know here to really discuss that point (1/5 of x where x is unknown and 1/5 might be false and we don't know how much those anime get from which kind of sources....).

    "You can say a lot of things about authors and producers, but thinking up stories, drawing the stories and selling it to the public requires time, money and effort. If they're not making any income from it, then why would they bother?"
    I don't get your argument. You might still be young but if you start working you realize that time, effort and money doesn't matter if the endproduct is bad,too late or not wanted. If your anime is considered fantastic in the eye of some group of people they might buy it and the larger of a group you reach the more money you make. Should those people feel bad for not buying an anime they like or think it's okay just because the producer invested money and effort into it?

    "Sure, some would say that they should 'get good', but seriously, think about it, everything is a copy of something these days. Every ideas have been thought up in the past and what creators can do now is just giving their own twist to it."
    You are arguing like it's their right to expect money from everyone not even considering the quality of their work. If their twists to the story are good they are selling, if not you can't blame the audience.
    (Don't narrow your mind with statements like every idea was already thought. Would a person in 1700 think about playing a game of LOL with his friends? No. Are we able to think about the newest shit of 2500 we can't even imagine existing? No. Yeah i know it's a strange example but it obviously shows that there is advance and i get what you mean.)

    "Telling them to 'get good' or "I won't pay for it" is like telling starving peasants to build the Notre Dame without being given money, food or rest."
    No, it's "do your job well and you get payed like it works for every other worker around the world".

    "There was a time when we go to a bookstore, got interested in a movie and buy it, only to find out that it's total shit, but we keep it anyway because somebody once created that. Sometimes you create masterpieces, sometimes you make shitty product, that's unavoidable in the creative industry."
    When i go to a bookstore in my country we can read the books there until we leave the shop. We aren't commiting to a gamble where we have to judge a book just by its cover. It's common to read the first 30 pages or so to decide if the book is written good enough to buy it. Do you expect a burned bread to sell as well as a perfectly baked one?
     
  18. readerz

    readerz Madam Jin

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    I no longer pirate video games. Steam is easy and good to use these days. However, I only use Gog.com because of their "no DRM" policy. I'm voting with my wallet for no DRM. (y)

    Manga, yes I buy that. :love:

    As for anime, I have never in my entire felt that it was worth buying except for some excellent movies. I just buy those the same rate as I buy non-anime movies, no diff. These days anime just can't capture my attention or admiration enough for me to buy it. I mean, sometimes I kinda like it but not in a "I'd pay $60 for this" way. :blobwoah: If there were no pirate sites I would just stop watching anime. And that's even though I spend money online shopping books, manga, graphic novels, video games, etc.

    So I guess what I'm saying is, there are people who just won't buy 99.99% of anime.

    TL;DR I'm one of those whose piracy use won't affect buying.
     
  19. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    Of course this is an assumption, but if a lot of people think like you do. Creators will disappear because they can't feed themselves. Art is not free. Even bad artists need to eat. These bad artists eventually grow and become good artists, but until that time, they need to survive. By your sentiments, beginner artists will never survive long enough to become good.

    Oh, I'm young, huh? I suppose you can say that if you're like late 30s, but tell me. Have you ever been told, "Sorry, we're going to have to let you go. Our last gamble failed."? I have and it was heartbreaking. Over 30 people lost their jobs that month. People who have spent days and nights toiling to make something, even to the point of not going home to their families for weeks at a time just so that their product could be delivered on time and within specification.

    Animes, mangas, movies and the like are creative products. They are not tangible products like cars, microwave or chairs where if you overproduce, you can just recycle them and make new bestselling products. Creative products are a hit or miss. Even the award-winning Studio Ghibli products have its fair share of detractors, to the point where Hayao Miyazaki retired once (but he's back).

    Unlike microwaves, you can't mass-produce animes, mangas or movies by making slight changes to the fabrication machines. Someone needs to write the script, someone needs to illustrate it, someone needs to spellcheck it, someone needs to cut it, someone needs to read it and if it's not good enough, it has to be redone. None of these can be recycled. All of these require actual human beings to handle it.

    Even a bimonthly manga series require two helpers to get it done on time. A popular monthly manga require even more helpers. How many people do you think work on a single anime title? How many people do you think work on an anime series?

    No, I'm not saying it's their right to expect money from everyone.

    I'm saying it's their right to expect money from everyone who USE their product. If you are not planning to pay for their product, don't use it. Similarly, if you don't plan on buying food, then don't eat. Ever since piracy became widespread following the easy access of internet, everyone's been saying, "Hey, we're consumers, we're entitled to free stuff." Well, you are not entitled to free stuff. Creators need to eat too, unless we go the communism route and creators can just pick up a loaf of bread without paying for it.

    Don't misunderstand, I pirate stuff too, but only because I can't pay for it. I don't justify my piracy by saying they're not worthy of me paying for their products. I justify my piracy by saying I can't pay for it, not that I don't want to pay for it, I just can't pay for it for one reason or another. If I try something and I really don't like it, I can return it. But I have paid for it, and if I somewhat liked it, the company would've made a sale. Someone somewhere gets to eat for that day.

    You have no idea how a creative products work, huh?

    They did their job well, the animes came out exactly as it was in the storyboard. Did you see missing frames? Were there glitches while you're watching? Were the voice actors not doing their jobs? Was the subtitle appearing all over the place instead of at the bottom? Was the translation not accurate? Did the gundam anime you watched actually filled with little elementary school kids playing by the beach for its entire length instead of awesome giant robot battles? Were you not able to watch the anime in the first place?

    The quality control of creative products is not the same as the quality control of microwaves. They're not so objective.

    While extensive research can reduce the risk of releasing badly performing anime, research itself cost money and time. The people doing the research still need to be paid and it will still require time before the research results can be made use of. Research also has an expiry time. The research you did last year will be useless this year. The more research you do, the more money and time you spend, making production cost higher. It still doesn't negate the risks of releasing an anime.

    Humans do not have a hive mind, everyone thinks differently. One person's trash may be another person's treasure. One person's trash anime may be what another person is looking for. Can't say the same about microwaves. Once a microwave don't work, they're trash to everyone, even those who recycle them.

    Kimi no Na wa, a lot of people praise this anime, but there are also people who don't like it. Those who don't like it said the story was nothing special, only the visual effects were good.

    Sometimes, the anime can flop simply for external reasons such as national conflict or boycotts, among others. One may say that it has nothing to do with how good the anime is, but people nowadays are so easily influenced by their surrounding. For example, if there is tension between Japan and China, the Japanese would hate China and the Chinese would hate Japan, even if they have no reason to hate each other. So if an anime comes out at this time, implying that the other side is good, it will flop. Later, they'd come back to the anime and wondered why they thought it was a terrible anime when it's actually not bad.

    Then do the same with anime. Don't watch the entire series for free. Watch the first episode or the first 30 minutes (that's what trailers are for) and decide if you like it enough to pay for it. If you watched the entire series or the entire movie and then said, "Meh, I'm not gonna pay for this shit." then you're just a freeloader who has no respect for the creators who toiled sweat and blood. You've watched the entire thing. You've eaten the entire burned bread, only to tell the baker, "This tastes like coal, I'm not gonna pay you" but you've already eaten the whole thing! You've already used the microwave for a year before you say, "This is a bad product, I want to return it."

    Now with that being said, do I like all animes? No, like you said, a lot of animes aren't worth paying. That's cool. I agree. So I simply don't watch them beyond the first episode. There are plenty of animes that people said were good, but when I watched it, I either didn't like or I fell asleep while watching it. This doesn't mean the animes were bad, it's simply that I just don't like it, so I won't continue watching it or pay for it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
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  20. Randomreader123

    Randomreader123 Well-Known Member

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    You are assuming that every beginner starts at the same level.

    I'm sorry for you. Know something similar, hope you found a new job.


    Thought it was pretty obvious that my "do your job well" had the meaning of "hit a large group of people" given the other statements i wrote.

    Okay I didn't answer the other quotes to much because I would repeat myself otherwise. I think all your points are either emotionally or morally arguments. And you are totally right morale-wise and I wouldn't even want to argue otherwise, I just look at it from a realistic angle and tell you straight away that if the content was locked behind a paywall most would just watch the free episodes (trailer) and would drop the anime for something more worth the money. Yeah everything is subjective but that's not only for animes. Take Pc systems as example, some were released but didn't sell not because they were objectly bad but they subjectly didn't feel as good to use as windows for the most.
    And there is a big difference between using a product like bread which you eat and it disappears and watching an anime which you wouldn't buy anyway(after watching the demo) on a free site because you are not taking anything away in the anime example. It doesn't make a difference moneywise if you watched it on the free-site or didn't watch it at all. It would only make a difference if you would've payed for it if there was no free site avaiable and do not pay after you watched it on the freesite... and yeah I have bought some series.
    TlDr: You are morally right but realistic there is no change if the product isn't buyworthy.
     
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