Wuxiaworld's Exclusivity - The Contract

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by rwxwuxiaworld, Mar 28, 2018.

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  1. noob_senpai

    noob_senpai Well-Known Member

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    You do know that this drama is not new, right? Even if this would now affect their performance on the stock market, the whole WW vs. QI is like a year old, but they were listed only in November. Obviously, that's not enough time to end the lawsuit (especially if it goes to court), but the attention would have died down by then, so their performance would not be as affected.
    Their core business is still in the Chinese market, compared to that their deals with WW are not a huge deal. Also, one of the main driving factor behind their share prices is Tencent.

    But let's say that this could somehow make a major impact on their share prices: according to them, this is an open and shut case, WW broke the contract, Qidian did nothing wrong, so the winner is a given. In such a case even if the share prices are affected, it only has a positive impact, since it strengthens their position on the international market.
     
  2. GodBrandy

    GodBrandy ❮Evil Shitposter❯

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    The same reason QI didn't DMCAed or sued all those fan translators translating their novels without their permission, they can't be bothered. Moreover, it's written in the contract that they can host those novels once they're finished, they just need to wait it out, or give WW a helping hand if the translator is too slow.:blobthinkingsmirk:
    While you might complain about them hosting ongoing novels, they can rightfully host finished novels such as CD, WMW, ISSTH, and so on. Speaking of which, why was that part conveniently ignored and not posted? :sushi_sigh: I think it might have some relevance since we're talking about licensing issues and I hear people complaining about finished novels being hosted too. Anyway, I could ask you the same question, why isn't WW suing QI? If their case is so strong and QI broke the contract so blatantly they should have no problem in winning. They said they would sue 7-8 months ago and still nothing.

    I don't really care what the Chinese version does, I have no contact with them and no one really cares either. If you want to bring some decent arguments on the plate you might want to rack your brain some more.
    I'll reply to your first issue, it's written in the contract that they can take finished novels and do whatever they want with them. So, they gave QI the right to host them under certain conditions, they're just not telling you. :sushi_bye:
     
  3. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

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    Ah, regarding the novel covers, a Qidian employee made a statement a while back that they bough those covers on a stock package or something (sorry, the name is probably wrong, my memory on it is fuzzy).

    So, those covers should be legallly theirs... Of course they employee could just be making it up, but until I see someone publishing some news about they being sued by it, I'll believe they have permission.
     
  4. aru

    aru Well-Known Member

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    ???

    You do know that most IPOs takes longer than a year, right? China Literature's supposedly started prep since 2015. Having ANY ongoing litigation during an IPO is bad; attention doesn't die down when you're about to do an IPO, but it gets blown up even more as you transition from a private company to a public one.

    It is generally not a good idea to start litigation against small companies over a small amount of profits outside of your core business areas as your stock prices are in a downwards trend less than 6 months after your IPO. Regardless if you can win or not, it has a negative effect on investor confidence. But I guess you are free to your own opinions.
     
  5. Mkill

    Mkill Well-Known Member

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    So we finally have confirmation that the contract stated that qidian could only host the novels after their translations were over. (@AliceShiki)

    As for why no lawsuits, just two words can provide enough clarification as to why it was no filed: China. Copyright.

    If you are not completely alienated, you know what that means.
     
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  6. noob_senpai

    noob_senpai Well-Known Member

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    Why WW isn't suing QI?:facepalm:
    I think I already answered that in my previous post, but then I will repeat it once again: it costs too much money. Need a source? RWX on reddit: "The lawyer is asking for a retainer of $25k and to prepare a warchest of $100k, how's that for a reason? xD"
    If you know a bit about IP-related lawsuits, you have seen that these often end up with a bill that's 2-3 times the initial amount/expected. In this case it is especially true, QI dragging this on and on and on in court would slowly choke WW in a financial sense. As I said: they need money to operate, to buy new licences, etc. QI doesn't only have a much bigger budget and a huge backer, but they also have the novels ready. You really cannot compare the overall size of the two - unfortunately.

    Qidian hosting novels that were also finished by WW is not an issue - based on the information that is out here it might be perfectly fine...except they are like 10 years too early. But hey, it's not a big deal, since the translations are owned by the translators that absolutely didn't agree to Qidian posting them on their own site, so even if everything else is as QI says, they have still no right to publish those translations. Why is THIS conveniently ignored?
    Even if you say that somehow WW signed a contract with QI that says they will get those translations eventually, since WW doesn't own those translations, QI certainly doesn't own it either or can publish it. You can't sell the neighbor's car - and you can't buy the guy's neighbor's car and drive around in it if you know that you paid for it, but for the wrong person.
    BUT if you say that it's all fine, I hope you will translate a lot of stuff that I can then post on a site I create and if anyone asks I will just tell them that I bought the rights to your translation from my dead grandpa. I guess nobody could possibly argue with that.

    But yeah, let's just conveniently ignore the ongoing novels - most of which is doing perfectly fine on it's own and does not need Qidian's helping hand or any other helping body part sticking out of Qidian.

    Also, it is cute that you think that QI just can't be bothered to sue WW if they think they will surely win - this is the Qidian that jumped at the first opportunity to grab a novel that was translated slowly, just to get a few more clicks. Sure, it's not like they have thousands of untranslated novels or tens of other popular novels they forced to stop being translated...
    This brings us to the DMCA case: they sent out warnings to a lot of translators, forcing them to stop translating Qidian novels or to join them. You say they didn't DMCAd or sued them, but it's just technically correct (stop, or I will DMCA the ** out of you is still not DMCAing) - not to mention that none of them had the size and traffic of WW.


    I will rather not start arguing, because I don't think it will be a pretty sight (i.e.: I can be pretty rude and I don't always want to be an a-hole to others just because we disagree) and today I would rather avoid getting pissed off.
    So yeah, let's just say that I have a very different opinion and I doubt I am the only one. "Generally" is not "always" - treating the two as one and the same is a sure recipe for mistakes.
     
  7. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

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    Godbrandy said more than once, on this very thread, that he doesn't represent Qidian? I don't see how this serves as confirmation.

    Like... The only thing I know about this user is that they are a translator, I don't even know of what. Is he Qidian's translator of HJC?
     
  8. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    Several questions:

    1. How do you know the content of the contract between WW and QI? There is NDA clause between WW and QI which prevent both side to show the contract to 3rd party. AFAIK, the NDA include employee that is not related to the contract

    2. Let assume the contract have the clause that you mention, when QI stole those translation only CD is finished (ISSTH are still ongoing, don't read TMW). They even doing it now for title like HJC and AWE. It still breaking the contract in my eyes

    3. Per contract that shown by RWX (and confirmed by several TL in WW), WW doesn't own the translation chapter, so like @noob_senpai said, QI doesn't have the right no matter what the contract between WW and QI. In fact this case already discussed before where the representative from QI claim that they already contact the TL but failed to give prove when demanded.

    4. The image is still used as novel cover in Qidian International, so it not only the chinese version.

    5. I didn't read a lot novel from QI, but there are novel that stealing character, storyline, etc from other source (warcraft in The Great Thief for example). It maybe only that one novel or there are other novel that doing the same thing.
     
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  9. noob_senpai

    noob_senpai Well-Known Member

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    The Warcraft thing is apparently in the category of "yeah, yeah, we know it, it's kinda okay... I guess *looks at the people sitting on the money and slowly counting it over and over again, menacingly - but then they stare back* - yeah, sure, it's fine"
    So Qidian, China Literature, etc., through Tencent owns a part of Blizzard (at one point 25% or so based on some reports, but don't quote me on that and most likely it's not even the latest info). So at the end of the day it's the exaggerated question of: "do I want to shoot myself in the foot/dick, or not?"
    It's definitely a strange situation, but in a way it makes sense... it just might not be the best example to follow in future IP right issues (or at least that's what I think for a lot, but not all cases - btw cheers "generally" guy). Maybe it's that the quality of the work isn't so bad that Blizzard would have to do something about it - or that other than the Chinese market, so far it barely made an impact internationally. Something like this isn't unheard of, but I would expect the parties to be much closer than they seem to be.
    The rest of the dodgy stuff QI does and gets away with is something I cannot easily explain or guess easily. I can imagine having one of the top 10 biggest companies in the world as a backer a pretty good way to scare off others - so that might be something.

    I can only give some background info and a few guesses along with those - but since I wasn't even the one who had to answer, I suppose it's fine. Others will probably know much more about this anyway and they might not try to answer this at ~2:30 :blobdizzy:
     
  10. alamptr

    alamptr What should i put here

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    Just sue it!!

    #insertshialaboufmeme
     
  11. GodBrandy

    GodBrandy ❮Evil Shitposter❯

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    Except I didn't say that? I said that they can host them once they're finished, not only once they're finished. According to QI, they can take them earlier too under certain conditions.
    That only applies to DMCA, I'm pretty sure Chinese companies can sue each other if they wish.
    I'm sure he can make that much money in 1-2 months from Patreon alone, and don't they have investors and stuff? If they are so sure to win, they might give it a try. His investors would be happy if they could deal a blow to Qidian's international branch, more opportunities for them :sushi_sigh:
    Anyway, everyone here was under the impression that there was some case going on, me included before I was told of the opposite. One shouldn't boast about kicking QI's ass, and spread misinformation, if they aren't capable of doing so.
    10 years too early? That's why QI is giving them a helping hand :blobowoevil_horns:
    Anyway, the thing about the hosting of finished novels was confirmed by deathblade in one of his videos, and I don't think he has any reason to lie. Now then, how can QI host those novels once finished, and do whatever they want with them, if the translators retain their rights? They clearly gave them up under certain conditions. If they got their rights sold without them even knowing, it's not really QI's fault and neither their problem. If anything, QI also got scammed in the process.
    You can take my translations if you wish, it's not like aggregators aren't stealing them already, I don't really care. ╮(╯▽╰)╭
    It's clear why they took HJC: decent fan base, slow release rate, waste WW's manpower at no cost if they decide to keep or take all their potential views if they don't, cheaper than a lawsuit and quicker as well. Why would they take another untranslated novel that no one cares about? They aren't going to recover their reputation on NUF, so they don't need to keep up appearances and worry that a bunch of users will get butthurt over this. These users are just a minority and if they had any relevance QI would have already crashed and burned, but they seem pretty fine to me.
    Also, those TLs dropped the novels on their own, the only DMCA QI ever sent was against WW. Even if those translators refused to join they didn't get DMCAed. In fact, there are plenty of TLs that don't care at all and keep translating. QI is quite tame compared to Japanese publishers.
    1) I could also ask you why there is a piece of the contract in the very first page if there is a NDA.
    2) Deathblade mentioned that clause (about the completed novel that can be hosted) which was conveniently left out in this part of the contract that was posted. Maybe there were some others details about the contracts that QI claims to be there.
    3) So, are you saying that RWX scammed QI and sold the rights of WW's translators without them knowing? Well, this is WW's internal problem, not sure why QI should even care, the TLs can sue WW if they got screwed.
    4) I don't know about that, but most images are stock images. Anyway, you can report it to them if you wish, they might change it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
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  12. Rethorian

    Rethorian Well-Known Member

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    You can't sell something you don't own. WW contracts don't sell their translation rights. If I 'sold' you the Eiffel Tower, and you later found out I never owned it, you don't just say 'Well it's mine now, if France isn't happy then they can just sue Rethorian'.
     
  13. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    1. Not answering my questions. I just want to know if you actually see the clause that you mention before with your own eyes or you was told by QI. If you get the info second hand, then I won't continue discuss further about this. From what the QI PR did in this forum, their opinion/info/"fact" mean nothing to me on basis they keep lying or avoiding fact

    2. Is this assumption on your part? The fact that I know is:
    - WW and QI have contract about several title that in WW
    - the contract give WW exclusive right (as shown in the first page, I took what RWX and several other people here translate since I can't read chinese)
    - No mention of other clause (not even by QI PR when the issue was discussed here)
    - translation is owned by Translator and not WW and QI haven't got the permission from translator (pretty sure RWX don't give permission for CD)

    Using the fact that I know, QI is breaking the law. Unless there are other fact that I don't know about.

    3. RWX never claim that he give the translation right to QI; QI is the one that claim the clause exist and when people try to tell them about it, they ignore or can't comperhand the law. In fact, my argument is exactly what RWX said to the QI PR.
    Several people raise the questions though on why QI try to contact the translator if they already have the right, which (you guess it) ignored by the PR Team

    BTW, it QI that supposed to sue WW about breach in contract, meanwhile the translation chapter should be pull down. Until they get permission from each translator.

    4. It already raised and read by QI and the QI PR only give vague answer, and when pointed to other example that doesn't match with his answer, he ignore it again.
     
  14. Kweent

    Kweent Active Member

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    Interesting thread to read :blobpopcorn_cool::blobpopcorn_cool::blobpopcorn_cool: WW vs QI fight has always been interesting .
     
  15. GodBrandy

    GodBrandy ❮Evil Shitposter❯

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    Unless you sold the rights to Hitler, and QI is worse than Hitler according to the users here :sushi_cool:
    1) I was already screenshotted once, I don't want to help people further in their imaginary cases.
    Anyway, QI's NUF account is a shared one. If they ignored some parts is because the PR at the time had probably no idea what was happening. And with how things were, I don't think the mob would have believed them, regardless of what they said or the truth was.
    2) No? DB said in his video that QI could host ISSTH because it was finished. Now, why don't I see that part in the first post? It seems it was conveniently left out.
    People already debated about the exclusivity thing, from what I heard it can be interpreted in different ways. But again, that's not the complete contract, there are missing parts.
    Moreover, about this part:
    I don't see any mention of Patreon. Why are they putting chapters there if they're not authorized to do so? WW broke the contract as well according to this part.
    They have permission for CD, like all others finished novels. This was confirmed by a WW TL, not sure why you find it so difficult to believe.
    If QI is breaking the law, so is WW. Look at the patreon thing for example. You don't even need to know extra facts to reach the conclusion.
    3) Please, QI's PR at the time was a joke. Stop using his/her arguments like they even matter :sushi_sigh:
    Additionally, why would RWX tell you that he sold the rights to QI? He has like every reason not to do it, his whole argument is based on it.
    4) I'm not sure then. The owner of the picture can send DMCA if they took it without permission.
     
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  16. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    1. Once again, not answering. If you don't see the clause by your self then I assume all your info is second hand, which put it on the same level as what RWX claim. You claim there is such clause, RWX claim there is no such clause.

    2. Even if DB said that QI can host ISSTH once it completed, not removing the fact that QI post the novel before it complete. Not to mention that QI only get DB permission for ISSTH, not for other novel.

    3. QI place then self as professional company, if I can't ask their PR team then who else? Of course I'll use their post to represent QI. If their post is a joke then it show the level that QI want to represent

    About the patreon, since I never participate in patreon then I can't comment, but you maybe true.

    @rwxwuxiaworld could you clarify this part?
     
  17. GodBrandy

    GodBrandy ❮Evil Shitposter❯

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    1) The source is reliable, but since I can't provide further proof on this point, you can temporarily ignore it. But it should be clear by now that important parts of the contract are missing, or rather, were conveniently left out.
    2) It's not only for ISSTH, but for all novels. Anyway, what QI is doing isn't baseless, depending on how you interpret things, they can take ongoing novels as well. Of course, this part of the contract was 'forgotten'. It would be interesting if RWX could post it. After all, QI already lifted that NDA, right? According to him anyway.
    Another thing, QI isn't blindly taking novels. For example, they didn't touch novels like Emperor Domination, Martial World (these are still Qidian novels), and the like since there is no contract for them. They took only those 20 novels that were part of the deal, 'dual hosting' them according to their interpretation of the contract.
    3) The PR doesn't have to be QI's CEO. He/she might not know about the content of the contract at all. And the way they handled things was bad, I'm not denying this. Even by spamming sushi and blobs I could have done a better job than the PR back then :sushi_sigh:
    I don't think he'll clarify anything. He already ignored a similar question a few pages back. Not only Patreon is an external site, chapters are paywalled and that's totally not a 'free reading service'. Still, I fail to see what was the point of this thread, arouse the fighting spirit of QI haters? He should know that it doesn't matter and won't change things. The masses don't care about this drama, they only want releases, even with average quality.

    Anyway, all of this was to say that while QI's behavior might be morally wrong in your eyes, it doesn't mean that it is also legally wrong.
     
  18. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

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    Uhn... Why not contact the translator would be a better question.

    Why translate a novel from the start with a new translator that the current readers may not like, if you can get the original translator to come over with all the translated chapters and their readerbase?

    I mean, seems like it is a lot easier for Qidian if they can get the translator to come over than to hire someone to start from scratch.
     
  19. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    1. Won't discuss this again since you can't confirm if this a first hand or second hand info

    2. As mention before, WW don't have the right for the translation, so no matter the clause between WW & QI, QI don't have the right to stole and post the chapter. I agree with your point on ISSTH since @deathbladesjz himself give the permission to QI (according to you since I don't watch the video myself)

    anyway this is my last reply on this topic, thanks for being civil and at least give a good background and reasoning.


    Agree with your point, but QI insist that they already have the right with their deal with WW. If they already have the right, why did they need to ask permission from the translator?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
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  20. GodBrandy

    GodBrandy ❮Evil Shitposter❯

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    1) Sure, but the point I raised is still valid. Even without the additional information, you can infer that WW also broke the contract (Patreon thing) and important parts were left out in the contract posted here (the whole thing about hosting novels after they're completed).
    2) Here is the video if you're interested (12:40 the interesting part):

    From the wording, it seems to me that all novels can be hosted there after they're completed. Moreover, he says 'we would allow' instead of 'I would allow'. So, it's not only him that knows about it. All the other translators should know about it too.
    Well, what if someone sold rights they didn't have? :blobpeek: *conspiracy intensifies*
     
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