Spoiler The Founder of Diabolism

Discussion in 'Spoilers' started by kiara8, Mar 29, 2017.

  1. readerz

    readerz Madam Jin

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    Yeah.

    I'm surprised that people are saying JC didn't speak up for WWX. I mean, he apologized for the entire thing which was humiliating for him. I'm damned sure a big part of the reason why the Jin clan staged that whole farce was to humiliate JC and drive a wedge between the Jiang clan and WWX.

    Give the guy a break. He's 17 years old, his whole clan was wiped out and he has to rebuild it from the ground up. He's barely had any sleep and no he gets humiliated in front of the other sect leaders because of WWX... it's good enough that he apologizes for his foster brother and promises to take care of things personally.

    “… I apologize to all of the Sect Leaders. Everyone, I’m afraid you don’t know that the Wen cultivator whom Wei WuXian wanted to save was called Wen Ning. We owe him and his sister Wen Qing gratitude for what happened during the Sunshot Campaign.”​

    That's totally defending WWX, you know. Don't look only on the bad parts.
     
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  2. TiramiQ

    TiramiQ Well-Known Member

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    in the anime time line, WWX stayed 3 years in the burial mound
    in the novel's time line, a couple of years passed since the sunshot campaign. either way, JC should be 20 now but that's beside the point.
    the point is, by apologizing JC was basically admitting that WWX was wrong even though he did not believe so. he didn't particularly hate WWX's use of demonic cultivation, he didn't particularly oppose of WWX's protecting the Wen survivors. what i call defending WWX is what Minamian did in chapter 73 and what WangJi did in chapter 72 and 73. JC probably didn't want to have to explain how Wen Ning and Wen Qing helped them so he chose to accept protecting them as a wrong doing and apologize for it. besides, instead of hating WWX for the things JGS said (how the campaign's victory was all thanks to WWX) he could have defended WWX's honor and pointed out that he indeed was responsible for a big part of the victory. what JGS said didn't only aim to humiliate JC but also to undermine WWX's contributions and JC let him do just that. all of this only made it ok for JGS and other cultivators to further condemn WWX and will later on lead to the siege.
    there is a passage in the chapter that clearly describes the feelings of hatred JC felt for WWX and like what someone pointed here earlier, he obviously didn't go to the burial mound for a peaceful talk and that's why he took a group of disciples with him. it's not even a matter of speculation any more, the author is basically confirming JC's less than friendly feelings toward WWX.
     
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  3. readerz

    readerz Madam Jin

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    WWX was wrong for stealing the Wens and killing the Jin disciples. JC apologized for that. Do you really think that WWX could grab and kill people whenever he wants without other people objecting to it?

    He did explain. No one cared. No one argued that point that they helped. What the others pointed out is that the remaining Wens are legit captives of war. Just because they helped the Jiang clan doesn't mean they automatically get a free "get out of jail" pass.

    Everyone already knows that. JC didn't bother to waste his spit on fruitless protests. JC understands that when WWX turns against the clans, they will turn against him, too. JC clearly spelled out it later to WWX. He told WWX that when it was convenient, everyone called him a genius but the moment it's not, he's an abomination. JC knows. He's not dumb, he can see what's going on.

    There is no such passage. JC doesn't hate WWX, lol.

    Nonsense. JC is a sect leader. He doesn't go anywhere alone. Why the fuck would you expect him to go to the Burial Gounds, which is full of undead, alone? That would be stupid. Look what happened to JXZ!

    He did go there for a peaceful talk. Tell me, did they fight? Did JC bring the disciples to attack WWX? No to both. He just went there to warn WWX that the clans will all be after his ass and that JC can't protect him.

    Well, whatever. You guys can hate JC and NMJ if you want. I prefer a more nuanced, balance reading of characters rather than the whole "OMG, he didn't stand up and scream 'WWX did nothing wrong!' what a douchebag!"
     
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  4. Aeli

    Aeli Well-Known Member

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    I would say that both sides of this discussion (forum) are somehow right. But both are a little extreme, too... :sweating_profusely:
     
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  5. readerz

    readerz Madam Jin

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    LOL well, if you had a troublesome little brother irl, you would know how JC feels. :D

    "Oh FFS, yet another mess." *facepalm* "I always have to be the responsible one and clean after him after every one of his antics..."

    :blobhero: WWX always comes out ahead. He invades the Jin clan territory, carries away prisoners, kills off Jin clan members, and emerges as the hero of the story to all the readers.

    Meanwhile, JC is the horrible one because he's not cheering on WWX as WWX walks down the path of being hated by everyone. :facepalm:

    Don't forget, down this path is the place where WWX loses his mind and is torn apart by his own undead minions.

    JC is simply trying to save WWX by making him turn away from being everyone's enemy but WWX is determined to do the impossible. JC reluctantly lets him do as he wishes... but this is clearly a path of self-destruction.

    I'll stop discussing now since this looks like an unpopular opinion and probably no one wants to hear it anyway, lol.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  6. TiramiQ

    TiramiQ Well-Known Member

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    i guess it is a matter of perspective. take Wen Ning for example. Wen Ning did nothing wrong and he had no blood in his hands and yet he was killed just because of his surname. that's called senseless murder and what WWX did was exacting justice. these cultivators thought they could treat the Wen survivors as sub-humans, abuse them and kill them whenever they felt like it. well, they thought wrong.

    he did not explain. he said something along the lines of "WWX helped Wen Ning and Wen Qing because we feel gratitude for them for what they did in the sunshot campaign"

    and then NMJ asked "you feel gratitude toward them? didn't the Wens destroy Lotus Pier?"
    and the "explanation" ended there. he didn't tell them that the siblings saved his life and got his parents' remains from under Wen Chao's nose, risking their own lives. that would have probably gained them a few points of sympathy because that's obviously not something an accomplice of the Wen sect would do.

    besides, just because the Wen survivors are war prisoners, it doesn't meant other cultivators can dehumanize them. Jin ZiXun literally used some Wen people as human baits in a night-hunt and they were being abused and killed by other Jin cultivators. they have been war prisoners for years and yet it was only now that WWX rescued them, why is that? because the treatment they were getting wasn't something even a war prisoner should be subjected too, especially ones that had no blood in their hands.




    it doesn't matter whether he knows or not, what matters is he just rolled with it. JGS was trying to undermine, erase even, WWX's massive contributions to the sunshot campaign. if that gets erased, only his wrong doings -or what the other sects consider as wrong doings- will remain and then it will become easier to paint him as an evil being and persecute him. Jiang Cheng as the Jiang sect leader and as WWX's friend shouldn't have let them walk all over WWX's achievements and erase his legacy. are we going to act like all those sect members and especially JGS were enraged at WWX because of righteousness and morals? lol JGS for one only wanted the tiger seal and what he is doing now is nothing but lashing out after he realized WWX would never hand it over to him. the other sect members are just following like sheep because his sect was the strongest.



    after JC said they felt gratitude toward the Wen siblings and NMJ asked how could he feel gratitude toward the people that destroyed his sect, the novel talks about how JC has been working non stop for the past few years to built his sect back, how he was exhausted and suppressing some anger, how he felt agitated because he had to apologize and how he felt hatred sprout within him when NMJ mentioned what happened to Lotus Pier. and then it goes to say "The hatred was directed at not only everyone who was seated in this room, but also Wei WuXian"



    because he wasn't going to an official mission or a diplomatic meeting. he was going to see his then right hand man and, look, he left the disciples at the root of the mountain and went inside alone and nothing happened to him lol. he wasn't even afraid that something might happen to him because he knew WWX wouldn't harm him.

    1st of all Jiang Cheng tried to behead Wen Ning right after Wei WuXian told him he was trying to awaken his consciousness. how is that peaceful? second, Wei WuXian himself said that he knew Jiang Cheng didn't come to have a nice talk so why should we pretend otherwise?

    well, i am sorry we are not smart enough for you but as far as i can recall, no one here called either of those 2 a douchebag. we're just trying to express different opinions in a civilized way.
     
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  7. Fiorisi

    Fiorisi [WenNing's Waifu] [Chongy's Mum] ଘ(੭ˊᵕˋ)੭

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    Jiang Cheng, his a complicated character, I can't deny a part of me feels slightly sad at some aspects of his personality, but at the same time, this is what makes him relatable. My first read through of Cheng, my first impression of him, obviously, wasn't good. I didn't understand at all where he was coming from, why he was always angry, why he held on to the hate for years, why he couldn't he understand all the fault didn't lie on his brother's shoulders alone. Why didn't he speak the truth? Told them exactly, what the Wen siblings did, why couldn't he believe in Wei more? Why did he let those peoples baseless rumours, and propaganda, cloud his judgment of the brother he grew up with? A brother which he should know of by heart, just as how Wei knows him off by heart.

    I didn't like Cheng at all, at first, then I came across I think @winter-t 's analysis/discussion of Cheng & Wei's fall out, I got a better understanding of Cheng's point of view. Cheng's loyalty lies in his family/loved ones and his sect, Wei's loyalty lies in people's kindness, his gratitude towards them, his promises. Rethinking about it now, I feel, from my perspective of his character, Cheng never truly hated Wei from the bottom his heart. Was he jealous of him? Yes, Wei was talented, genius received his dad's affection, got constantly compared to him, by his own mother even, developing the inferiority complex. And, now as a grown-up, people around still compare him to Wei.

    How I wish Cheng had a strong mentality to block those people off, to push their words aside, to tell them they no know better about Wei, they didn't know him, they didn't grow up with him. But, against millions of unending whispers or loud voices, ganging up as they did in that discussion room? It's incredibly hard, to block them off, to hear your own voice, your own mind. Cheng already had his hands full of sect leader duties, he had obligations to his sect, and now he has to face this? I feel disheartened at both these stupid broken little boys, whose circumstances were just not going right for them.

    Cheng truly did try lessening the damage, to bring Wei back, in his own harsh & stubborn way. Cheng apologised to everyone in the room, although frankly, those people are undeserving of it, he went and negotiated with Wei. Though stabbing Weny bear was too mean of a solution, but in Cheng's eyes, getting rid of the innocent Wens would mean getting Wei back. It's a harsh solution, a terrible one, these people are innocent, but when people are desperate, there's no room for being selfless, unless your Wei, but Cheng isn't Wei, Cheng is Cheng, and Jiang Cheng was desperate.

    As of now, to me, these two are both wrong & right. Wei repaying the gratitude he owed to the Wen siblings + protecting innocent survivors + humiliating those brainless cultivators with the truth. But, he should've not killed those guards, Wei could've just as easily held those guards down & made his escape with the survivor's, it would've saved some trouble. Cheng did his best, in his own way, to defend Wei, despite the position he was in. He could've said more to defend him true, such as telling them the Wen siblings act of kindness or telling those people off for saying baseless stuff against Wei.
     
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  8. Fiorisi

    Fiorisi [WenNing's Waifu] [Chongy's Mum] ଘ(੭ˊᵕˋ)੭

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    Everyone certainly is split, after chapter 73 :sweating_profusely: But, this is also kind of amazing in its own way? MXTX sure knows how to rile her readers up. I wanna hear Madam Jiang's thoughts on this @Cypress but then again she'd be heartbroken to read through all this sad stuff about her hubby :blobsob::blobsob:
     
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  9. TiramiQ

    TiramiQ Well-Known Member

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    btw didn't the Wen sect literally kill everyone in Lotus Pier except for Jiang Chen, Jiang Yanli and Wei WuXian? who in the world does then new sect even consist of? :hmm:

    anyway, just to clarify, i've never denied that Wei WuXian was wrong in certain things. just today i said in one of my posts that he turned to the worse after he started cultivating the demonic way and a few days ago i said i don't like this new version of Wei WuXian. his arrogance was childish in the past but now it became repulsive.
    this is not about painting Wei WuXian and Jiang Cheng in white and black colors. it's just that despite all his wrongdoings, WWX was consistent with his principles and morals while Jiang Cheng let himself be affected by the greed and jealousy others felt toward WWX and let his own jealousy of him fester beyond redemption.
     
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  10. chiino

    chiino Lady Nie [scheming with my hubby, Huaisang]

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    I definitely think you explained things way better than I could. I tend to run myself in circles and end up confused. There is a lot of unnecessary hate flying around. Most likely, because from the beginning of the story we are told in rumours Wei Ying is killed by his Shidi - Jiang Cheng. Things are slowly coming to light, but its not yet shown how Jiang Cheng brings Wei Yings downfall yet... (unless of course this it is :blobsob:).

    I prefer to keep a neutral tone towards all the characters as well. I find it more interesting to try and relate to them all vs hating them all.
     
  11. mican07ali

    mican07ali Active Member

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    Hi., amh i justvwanted to ask if there was already a translation on the whole thing when wei ying was captured by the bad guy(i always forgot his name) with lanji’s brother?
    They were talking about what lanji did for wei ying on the cave..there was already a translation up to the part where lanji’s brother is telling wei ying all about it and it ends there...it was really a cliffhanger.. WHAT WERE WEI YING REACTION AFTER THAT???? WHAT DID HE REPLY????
    DID LANZAN COME RIGHT AFTER THAT????
    WHAT HAPPENED AFTERWARDS???

    I decided to wait for the official translation but i guess it could yake a few months to get there....the curiosity is killing me,,.im dying to know what happened next...
    Many thanks in advance...please save this poor one’s life....
     
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  12. salbireo

    salbireo RanWan ❤

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  13. nezushion

    nezushion Active Member

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    AHH this chapter! stir up my emotion! this is a good story ahhh poor JC getting gang at the discussion and nobody to back him o<-< the conflict in his mind. I like how mian mian stand up for him ahhh u go gurl!!
    JC noe that wen ning and wen qing save them but he cant protect them and WWX. Becuz defending WWX is like standing with the wen side is like going against everyone. Everyone hatred for wen is too deep! until a tooth for a tooth kind of hatred. but the hatred can be understand. He noe if he does then Jin, Nie will definitely have a reason to destroy jiang(him,wwx and her sisters life) and he doesnt want to see something he rebuild that is left by his family. JC always have a bad mouth saying LWJ and JZX should have died and not having WWX save them or breaking Jinling legs,asking Jin ling not to see him anymore if he doesn't get a hunt. Just like his mother saying how she hate wei ying. She could do all the torture like a step mother in dramas but she never hurt WWX intentionally. all charas are not black n white. thou everyone have the right to hate n love any chara. if the story don have any chara tat doesnt stir ur emotion than its not a good story lol the author is really good ^q^
     
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  14. Rufi-sidd

    Rufi-sidd When the wolves come out to play!

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    The only thing that pissed me off like really in chapter 73 was Jiang Cheng repeating his mother's words I was like 'you effing asshole (don't actually mean it in a severe way) who was the one who kept it together when your senses flew to heaven after the downfall of your sect if Wei ying didn't make the decisions he did back then would you be even alive' I was actually fine the whole chapter considering both sides at all times ....... I understood Jiang Cheng's standing and all that he has to consider his position as sect leader can't jeopardize the whole sect for one person who is showing little to no interest in agreeing to terms with him but then it also makes me question something lets consider (just consider nothing too serious) if this was his real brother not an adopted one who was in the heat like this or if it were jin ling would he back away like this?? if even talking to them prove to be futile and they make themselves clear they won't back down from their stance.... Would he still say to his own real brother or his nephew let's have a duel to make it clear we have nothing to do with one another??? Or would he whip the whole effing world with Zidian till they forget about prosecuting his family member.......... Just saying....... His character is something that you can't completely blame and neither forgive....... And his being a tsun makes it even harder....
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  15. kitkat2010

    kitkat2010 Well-Known Member

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  16. Rufi-sidd

    Rufi-sidd When the wolves come out to play!

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  17. salbireo

    salbireo RanWan ❤

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  18. Rufi-sidd

    Rufi-sidd When the wolves come out to play!

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    And also Jiang Cheng's behaviour with wen yuan kinda pissed me off and irked me a little too it's just that I DO NOT at all without any exception like men who aren't nice to children..... I love children so even reading about it had me irked and the first thought that formed in my head was the one that Wei ying voiced......
    Jiang Cheng!!! Why why why!!?
     
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  19. setsuna3025

    setsuna3025 cheif protecter of WWX and LWJ love relationship

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    lol didnt JC oso stab wwx in the stomach?
    wat to do he has inferior complex to WWX and has a weak mind due to his dad favouring wwx more den him and his mom always comparin him if others
    hmmm seems like NMJ and LXC wanted to see hw JC will act as a sect leader? and maybe NMJ and LXC oso didnt realli like hw WWX became so powerful suddenly? just guessing
    half fake half real i think.
    when WWX was alone he was probably so sad and alone and somewhat screamin out loud on the inside to hav soemone beside him and lessen the burden. ya LWJ will always protect him no matter wat LWJ faster go and save ur wife ahhahha. he needs love
    ahhhhhhhh damn they must do tat i wan to see thier reactions oso ahhahahah
    Jins sects ppl bunch of fked up ppl to the core just cause they r nw the most powerful clan they start becomin like the Wen clan alreadi. humans greed knows no bounds.
    hmmmmmm i feel like NMJ doesnt wan to get involved and just observe onli and not help at all -.-
    well JC has a hell lot of jealously issuse wif everyone and mostly WWX. but i do agree on the "if you harbour deep feelings of jealousy toward your best friend then you are not a good friend at all" and tats is mostly y they ended up goin thier separate ways at the end cause right till the end JC is still as jealous (and not being able to understand y WWX did wat he did) as ever.
    lollollol same here ahhahahha
    agreed when wei ying needed his fren/ brother he was no where to be found but instead being thron away just cause of other comparin WWX to JC, and JC cannot stand being compared since young so wat to do?? haizzzzzzzzzzz
    he just didnt wan to be said by the Jins as to y is JC coverin for them when the wen dogs burns down his sect and killed his parents and he should be hatin them (which is true cause JC still hates every wen name ppl) and not coverin for them, and sayin tat he has no skills as a leader and blah blah blah wat these kind of ppl will say to bring u down. and JC just didnt wan to hear all these since he had alot to do since nw he is the head. and oso mostly he cant deal wif WWX anymore i think. just for wantin the tiger seal from WWX they go to such lengths to destroy thier relationship -.- these Jin ppl can go and die man seriously.
    agreed JC needs to fix his damn inferior complex and stop blamin everything on others and he oso need to let go of his hatered he has for WWX when his sister died.
    hahah yup and i hav not even read chapter 73 i still waitin for a few more chapter to be out den i read from 68 onwards hahahahhha.
     
  20. Cypress

    Cypress Eh, what's "outside"? /sinks into bed

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