Spoiler Latest Chapter Discussion Thread for Death Mage Raws

I came back guys, I still have 20 pages of comments from you to read, but I see that there are a lot of people thinking that Botin is going to try to make Van not kill Heinz, but if you remember why Botin does not want to talk to Alda at least for me it seems unlikely that Botin has anything against Van's revenge, Botin is the goddess of the mothers and she is angry at Alda because he is killing Vida's children so I do not see how Botin would find it wrong for a son to want revenge against the man he led his mother's death and in the chapters with Botin was well evident that she is a very direct and sincere person with her feelings, so Botin would not have the cold blood to say that Van has to swallow all the hatred and sadness that Heinz made Van go. .. I can not see Van giving up killing Heinz but he does not break his soul it seems like a possible and acceptable mentality change for Van ...

 

I wonder if this means some new jobs related to those divinities will show up in near future.

Another thing that makes me wonder is what exactly would happen if van got divinity directly tied to different element attribute., I know that people here mentioned that van cant get any other attribute but to be honest I dont get it. I know that researchers on origin believed that you can create death attribute by removing existing attribute from magic but we know non-attribute magic exist and it has nothing to do with death attribute, the fact that van can use both death and non-attribute magic mean that other atttributes should be possible for van since non-attribute magic use mana that wasnt converted into any attribute so van does have mana that can be converted to any other attribute(death attribute doesnt automatically convert all his mana into death attribute magic like some could think).

Yes I do know that there was talk about this before in this thread but I am still very confused about this, I see no resonable explanation why other elemental attributes should be impossible for van other then the fact that he currently doesnt have them but we do know its possible to gain element attribute and not just van means(soul/god devour) but we even saw alda take vida life attribute.

 

I mean Van's already gotten [Spirit Form: Lightning], so I think Densuke has already made it pretty clear it's not impossible for Van to make use of other attributes.

Honestly, I think this is less an issue of if he can do it, and more an issue of it not being a particularly good use of his time. Van has the "can't gain experience on your own" curse, which means he has a clear incentive to just make use of [Divine Spirit Magic], which lets him pour his mana into a ghost of various attributes and have them kill an enemy, than casting magic himself and getting no experience at all. At this point he's got ghosts of nearly every attribute (more than most actual mages, like Zandiris Zadiris for instance, ever specialize in), so it's not like using that type of magic is particularly limiting to him either.

Van has no incentive to learn to use different attributes himself, because he already functionally can with his ghost friends like Levia and Orbia. And indeed, we see most of Van's training focusing on unique skills like his death magic, the soul destroying combat technique, demon king fragment usage, and now muscle control techniques.

 

Just to be clear, not that I'm suggesting you're saying otherwise, the argument is not "regardless of the situation Botin will encourage Van to reconcile with Heinz". It's "if Heinz (and Bellwood) show clear and concreate indications that they want to make amends for past mistakes then Botin may decide to intervene". As you say, Botin doesn't even want to talk to Alda so her feelings towards Bellwood shouldn't be much different.

Putting it another way, the author is clearly setting up something here so we're speculating what that might turn out to be based on previous events and logical analysis of what makes a good story. It would be a waste of time for the author to do all this setup for Heinz (and Bellwood) only for it to be simply tossed to the side and the situation turn into a battle to the death. So what things could happen and why? I think you could read chapter 180 as a bit of foreshadowing of all this:
https://lightnovelbastion.com/release.php?p=1292

Consider Van's feelings towards Asagi and Asagi's general attitude. Van doesn't like the guy at all and if he acted purely on his feelings then he'd have killed him. Instead, Van rationalised that it would be better not to kill him. With Van and Heinz though, Van's feelings will be far stronger and the situation will be far more dangerous. In Asagi's case, Van didn't need someone to give him advise on how to achieve the optimal result. But in Heinz's case, I doubt that'd be possible - in other words, outside intervention would almost certainly be required. Nobody from Vida's side is going to speak up for Heinz and Bellwood, therefore it'll take third party, such as Botin.

But there's no way Botin would immediately know and understand the current situation with Heinz and Bellwood (that the readers can see). In other words, it's absolutely up to Heinz to make the first move. I'm not sure the guy quite understands the difficulty of the situation though. It's also not the sort of situation where swinging around a sword is going to solve things. He seems aware enough that Van hates him and is unlikely to listen to reason if he turns up randomly but I'm not sure he properly understands the breadth and depth of Alda and Bellwood's mistakes, or his own. Putting it another way, if he approaches Van in a similar way to Asagi it's not going to work. On the other hand, if we assume that Heinz will not rush to meet with Van and given the stakes of the situation then it's possible for various things to happen.

For example:
1) Heinz eventually returns to society and repeatedly makes it clear that he wants those on Alda's side (including the "harmony faction") to be nicer to the Vida races.
2) Noticing this through her followers, Botin decides to test Heinz by offering him a trial of some kind.
3) Heinz accepts the trial and eventually clears it, allowing him to meet Botin (obviously in a divine area).
4) Pretty much the first thing Botin does is to beat up Bellwood. She goes on to make it clear that the anger/resentment of those on Vida's side is much much greater. She then checks with Heinz to see if he is resolved. Assuming that Botin is satisfied with Heinz's response then she'd probably agree to do various things.

The above is a fairly optimistic scenario but something like this is possible. Heinz will have to clear various hurdles simply for Botin to consider doing anything at all. After all, consider that Heinz himself is guilty of killing mothers and children - Botin won't be happy about that. However, Botin has shown signs of being willing to forgive those who realise that they've made mistakes. She might hope that Alda can be reformed via Heinz/Bellwood - if she simply wanted Alda to die and be destroyed she'd be taking a different approach.

To be blunt, I don't like Heinz. I wouldn't morn his death at all. He doesn't seem to properly understand his situation. If he makes an approach towards Van like what Asagi did then that's definitely not going to work. If he's that shallow then he'll deserve to be destroyed and I'll watch it happen while eating popcorn.

On the other hand, while gaining vengeance has been a constant theme in this story, people forgiving others has also happened plenty of times, including with Van. Because of all this, there is the potential for an interesting story here.

 

You do make a really good point, and I agree that most elements wouldnt really bring anything new to the table, but I think something interesting could happen if van gained access to life attribute, it may sound like bad choice since in some aspects death and life attributes overlap, like in keeping stuff alive but if van got life attribute then he would represent both life and death(or death and life in his case ;p), the whole cycle and also spiritual and physical(in "fleshy" sense), another interesting combination with death attribute would be holy attribute since its anti undead. I am not saying I want to see magic synthesis of oposite attributes but I do want to see magic synthesis of oposite attributes, not sure if its even possible in this story unvierse but doing impossible is kind of van thing

I will be honest I am huge fan of character holding contradicting powers concept in stories, the so called "Yin-Yang Bomb" trope

 

It does make you appreciate just how amazing the brain is. And how complex communication is - there's a lot of subtle things included within the overall context of the conversation.

I wonder how things work in an army context. I don't think the commander automatically gets exp from all the soldiers on the field.

AFAIK all "production" type jobs can be levelled by relevant work (as well as killing monsters). After all, Van awakened cooking outside of combat. However, if he'd had a cooking related job he'd probably achieved this long ago. And yeah, next time we see him take a proper "god" job we should see him level it due to prayer/worship from others.

 

To me the best thing Bellwood and Heinz could do would be go straight to a temple of the other great gods (Botin,Peria/etc) and try to consult with them. Basically go to the temple saying "I F-ed up and would like your god's advice on how to fix it".

Heinz needs to admit he his made mistakes, and be proactive in trying to fix them, and it needs to be an attempt with substance behind it as opposed to just a superficial attempt to ease his conscience.

If Bellwood was seen publicly consulting with the other gods and taking their advice over Alda's that might be able to help with one of the biggest problems in the setting, Alda's teachings include that they need to listen to him above all others with him acting as the ruler of the gods. There was some justification while he was the only greater god active, except for how he became the last active greater god by criminal acts that discredit him from ruling, but with the others active again the world needs to treat them as equals. As opposed to Alda's "me only kill anyone who says otherwise".

 

Magic synthesis is the bomb, like in "Tsuki ga Michibiku Isekai Douchuu" when myriad dragon harmonized all the attributes it could into a single attack that grew off of itself so he could launch a spell worth much more mana than he could ever use normally.

 

I'm sure there will be. Speaking of which, what are the newest job options right now?

The rule seems to be that a single individual being using the death attribute can't use any other attribute.

• Individuals with death attribute mana can't use magic of other attributes. This includes Van and anyone carrying Demon King fragments.
  • However, other attributes can still be used through a different medium, such as dead spirits.
  • Aspects of other attributes can be used through death attribute magic, as long as they are tangentially related to the death attribute somehow. This is due to conceptual overlap between attributes. Van has so far used death attribute magic to generate fire and create life forms.
  • Souls with death attribute mana can be imbibed with properties of other attributes without issue. This may be because souls are within the death attribute's domain.

First @jemini, now you?!

She might understand if Vida tells Botin everything that happened to her in the past 100000 years. They are best pals, right?

To be fair, Heinz has done more than just swing a sword around, even though swinging a sword is what he does best. And he at least recognizes that killing Van is a last resort, not the best solution available.

Either that or he believes Alda and Bellwood are worthy of forgiveness if they undo those mistakes as best they can, which is rather sensible of him.

This might not go as smoothly as it did before, now that Van is there to spread Vida fundamentalism.

A trial that demands more than pure combat ability, I assume.

That would be an amazing bait-and-switch. Besides, Botin being sassy and beating sense into everyone is really amusing in any situation.

This would confirm what Heinz and Bellwood already know, but really puts it into perspective. It would also help Heinz understand why Bellwood was totally okay with sleeping his sins away in chains for 50000 years.

She would probably send Heinz off on a quest to talk sense into Alda and help fix the world's problems, and keep Van from killing Heinz if they have to work together to achieve this. She might also give Heinz her divine protection, if she believes Heinz deserves an extra boost or incentive.

I think it's actually fairly likely if Botin decides she wants to get involved with Heinz at all.

Well, Heinz has only killed mothers and children because Alda said so, so it mostly boils down to Alda and Bellwood being guilty of making sinners of their worshippers. Not to say that Heinz is completely off the hook, though.

I would mourn Heinz's death because he doesn't seem to properly understand his situation. He's not a bad person, but he's currently too flawed to be a great hero, and I see that as something to be pitied.

Brutal! But I doubt Heinz would catch Van by surprise in the middle of the woods, where Van would have no reason to hold back against him. Perhaps Heinz will decide to meet Van in Talosheim or the Orbaume Kingdom, both heavily populated areas.

Heinz's willingness to forgive may eventually trigger Van's final character development. Heinz just needs to make up for his mistakes so Van no longer has any reason to kill him, then force Van to acknowledge this fact so he realizes that revenge is not necessary.

IIRC, Van nabbed Life Distortion, a life attribute skill, from the Evil God of Joyful Life, and then again from the Demon King job. Not only was it integrated into existing skills, but Van had already used this ability to mutate normal organisms into monsters and create new, superior races.

Incidentally, Life Distortion is a power Guduranis is famous for, and one that the Demon King is expected to have. The Evil God of Joyful Life is a jealous Demon King wannabe, apparently.

My favorite examples are the Demon King and Great Demon King jobs, which accept Demon King-ness as experience. So Van completed the jobs instantly.

TL;DR: Heinz and Bellwood need to fix their mistakes and let the great gods know that yes, they know they fucked up. They also should be proactive about it. In addition, Bellwood actually taking orders and advice would help restore the power balance that Alda upset.

 

Yup. Something like that would be optimal, though I'd be surprised if this occurs to him, for multiple reasons.

Yup. He's going to have to push over the objections of many, I'm sure. There'll probably be quite a few people alarmed about what's going on in the Alcheim duchy, for example. If Heinz panders to these fears then he's not going to get anywhere with Van.

Well, the tendency for the last 100,000 years is for the divine realm and the mortal world to be rather isolated in terms of direct communication. Putting it another way, whatever Bellwood does it won't be automatically public and the mortals won't find out about it unless some gods use oracles to spread the word.

 

At this point some of the gods likely need to descend in some way, if only for a short while, and actually speak to the masses.
They need to create a better line of communication then Divine Messages.

 

That's not what I was getting at: pretty much nobody in-world currently knows that Bellwood has had a change of heart. Vida certainly wouldn't be aware of this, which is precisely why she sent an emergency message to Darcia about Heinz reviving Bellwood. If Bellwood makes no attempt to contact anyone except Alda then it might be months before Vida or Botin find out about Bellwood's change of heart.

Yes, he has at least been able to get some minor reforms enacted.

Kinda stinks of being convenient for himself though. "Yes they committed genocide for thousands of years but they're really sorry now, honest. PS I was just following their orders. So we're all friends now, right?"

Yes. And unlike Alda, Botin would be able to get help for Ricklent so should be able to do something pretty interesting for a trial. For example, make Heinz experience what it's like (at least mentally) to be a Vida race member when people treat you like a monster.

 

I think something like Jane Doe's introduction recently makes it clear that Van is not beyond forgiving even one of the Five Colored Blades if they do something tangible to make amends. Martina's "death and reincarnation" into Jane Doe was enough for him to let her soul keep living.

The problem with Van forgiving Heinz is, again, that Heinz hasn't really done anything tangible for Van, he hasn't done anything tangible to make amends to his actual victims. He just seems to care about being "moral", of soothing his own conscience. An example of this is his latest chapter, where he responds to Bellwood's killing of Vida races with "but you're sorry." Another example is Van asking if he could treat undead as people, Heinz responds with the standard morals of Alda's teachings, rather than something like querying Van "is there a way undead can be people?"

Van doesn't care Heinz lodged a complaint with a guild for him, or saved a stranger like Selen. What Van wants is to be assured that Heinz can't hurt his mother again, to hurt his loved ones again. And yet, in their last encounter, Heinz and co were training to kill his friends, they dismissed Van's viewpoints outright, and they made use of his feelings for his mother to try and kill him. Van thus understandably has seen no real reason he should forgive Heinz at the moment.

That's not to say Heinz can't give Van reasons to forgive him going forward. This could be something like giving a speech where he admits what he did to Van and Darcia to the public and basically cedes political power in Orbaume to Van's faction. Or having Bellwood try to send divine messages that he and Alda were wrong even if they don't think it'll work. Or turning himself into a member of Vida's Races so he's stuck in the same boat as Darcia was. Or let's say if Heinz and Van have to team up to beat Edgar/Guduranis, Heinz lets Van devour that part of Guduranis afterwards. Heinz has never given up part of his power, his control, to Van. Instead, he's just done things to allow him to have more control over Van, like becoming a noble in another kingdom, or training to kill Van's friends or reviving Bellwood. There are situations where Van could forgive Heinz, but Heinz has to actually prove he wants to make things right to Van, instead of right for himself, first.

 

Certainly better communication methods are needed though descending is probably overkill (or rather, poor in terms of costs/benefits). I previously suggested that perhaps Botin and Peria will attempt to get their head priests to visit them at the bottom of a dungeon (being a pseudo divine area) like Van and co have done in the past. Sending messages via demi-gods should also be an option.

 

Ricklent, Gufadgarn and Van.
Between those 3 building a dungeon should be a snap.

 

they could probably create another monster that makes you look into yourself (like the one in zakkarts dungeon) but it creates a simulated reality that turns you into one of the first vida races about 1/2 a year before bellwoods attack until they die by bellwoods hands, so bellwood can see both sides of that fight after building relationships with the residents and heinz can truly feel what its like to lose people he has come to care about due to aldas attack.

 

"I'm Heinz and I'm a murderer. I killed innocent members of the Vida races. I've sinned and want to make amends. I also want to stop others from making the same mistake. I have changed. Now, you must change. The law must change."

It wouldn't be easy to say that in public. Or follow through on that commitment. If Heinz has the resolve to do that then he'll get my respect. If he leaves the heavy lifting and difficult decisions to others, then not.

 

Well, for the specific case of Botin making a trial for Heinz, I don't think she'd involve Van.

Though if the goal was to make Heinz suffer as much as possible for Van's enjoyment, then go right ahead! (Might be one way to get Van to forgive Heinz...)

 

That is only if they tell Van the truth of what it is for.
Really Alda's building a dungeon just for Heinz was a bit of a waste, She should go for one with more usability that can help level her clergy anf faithful while testing them.

If it just happens to test Heinz more then others so be it.

 

i really like the dungeon idea that places him as a member of vidas races during to vida/alda war, maybe if ricklent has recovered some of his powers he can make heinz and co perceive 20 years or so as a week!

a dungeon that places them into a simulation where they are born in a vida city, pre vida/alda war so that he can grow into an S class identical in skills to his current self and then fight to try and defend the city when alda launches his surprise attack on them.

i really like using lists at the moment so...

1. heinz goes into dungeon
2. heinz goes into trippy dream sequence (start of simulation)
3. heinz wakes up as human baby (in pre alda/vida war vida city)
4. heinz gains a deep connection over what he perceives as a couple years (including a lover)
5. heinz becomes a S rank equivalent
6. a couple vida gods spot the alda army coming towards them and sends out warning messages
7. the city is panicking as a response force is formed with heinz orders to be rear guard
8. heinz tries to defend against the alda gods but as he's struck down he falls into the sea of corpses, next to his is his lover who didn't escape in time
9. heinz wakes up in front of the great gods
10. turns out he was asleep for a couple days/weeks (he perceived it as years)