Discussion Literal vs Liberal Translations

Recently, I feel like I'm been seeing a lot of complaints about translations that are "too literal", but also people who aren't fond of localization. I decided to make this post when I see privileged f**ks who don't even sponsor or donate always find something to complain about when it's free for them, so I decided to make a post to help them understand on this topic. Of course, considering they even make comments like that, I don't know if they will even bother reading this post or just post something bad in the comments without reading and without any logic. Alright, my flaming is over for now.

First, let's start off with the basics. What does a translator do?

This may seem like a very basic question, but this question in fact defines the translation style of the translator (assuming they aren't MTL). FYI, this entire article is based on the fact that they don't copy and paste Google Translate, cause if they are, I don't even understand why you're calling yourself a translator instead of an editor.

In my opinion, there are basically three groups of translators: conservatives, moderates, and liberals. Hmm;.. why do they sound like political parties? Well cause they are cause every problem are basically split into these three factions. I personally belong in the conservative party mostly, but there are times where I am a moderate, translation-wise not politics lol.

I will now (attempt) to go over every group as unbiased as possible and support their reasoning as why they translate as such.

First, let me start with conservatives aka literal translations. These people always translate stuff like XXX-san, XXX-sensei, XXX-kun, etc. Yup, I'm one of them. There is a reason why we do that and it's not because we're lazy. Holy c**p, I get that so much and I'm super pissed sometimes cause of that. We put "-san", "-chan", "-kun", etc. because there are NO ENGLISH EQUIVALENTS to them. No, "Mr." and "Mrs." is not a proper translation for it. "Mr." and the likes are more formal, while anyone on the street you meet is a "-san". People who translate more literally believe that because there are no good English equivalents, so that we don't "localize" Japanese puns or change them, but make footnotes for them instead or other methods of explaining the joke. We never ADD material nor CHANGE material, thus most of the time, literal translators tend to keep the paragraph format and sentence structure so it leaves the same impact as it would to you as it would to Japanese readers.

Second, let's continue to liberals aka liberal translators/translations as it becomes easier to explain moderates later. They believe that the content should be "Westernized" or at least fit so that the person reading the material can be a complete newbie and still enjoy reading it. What do I mean by newbie? I meant someone who had never in their life consumed any type of Japanese media aka manga, anime (dubs don't fking count), light novels, visual novels, etc. They also believe that translating is about interpreting the author's work and conveying it over in their native language or language they're translating to. This also includes verbal ticks such as how some characters end their sentences with "nyaa". A literal translation would just add "nyaa" literally at the end of the sentence while a liberal translator would change it up to an English equivalent or even take it out as they believe it has no purpose in the actual content other than fan service and appealing to fetishes. Often, they'll edit entire sentences into something that conveys the same meaning overall, but changes entire sentence in terms of translation wording.

Finally, let's touch on moderates. Moderates in politics are people who swing neither way and usually accept ideas from both sides. In this context, they are people who believe things from both sides and add it to their own translation styles. For example, they believe in adding stuff like "-san" and verbal ticks such as "nyaa", but they would translation a pun into an English joke and add a footnote at the end explaining the joke. Once in a while, they will add lines or change up sentences they believe that will improve the understanding what's happening of the plot that would be otherwise lost in translation.

Here are differences in translation styles regarding a pun:

A moderate/liberal translator would do something like this:
Husband: I want to eat salmon roe!
Wife: But how much will it cost…?
(TL note: salmon roe and how much are both pronounced ikura)

While a literal translator (like me) would do something like this:
Husband: I want to eat ikura (salmon roe)!
Wife: But ikura (how much) will it cost…?

Overall, I do believe that all three positions have their own merits and every reader do have their own reading preference in terms of reading. I hope that the readers can just be thankful that they aren't paying to read the translations and not be so picky about how a translator translate as they can't your personal servant catered to your preferences. It sounds cheesy, but translation in an art. How someone translates depends on their style and beliefs.

I hope you all can at least read it and them make your own judgments about translations. Still, a machine translation will always just be a machine (for the next decade or so at least), so don't use them as an example if you're going to argue anything. They shouldn't even be called machine translators, but machine editors.

P.S. If anyone says my English is crap, it is. That's why I have editors. I am very thankful for them for editing my translations and I believe editors should also receive a lot of credit when releasing novels! Shout out to Arocks141 and Sage Yomeiri for editing my shit.

 

I'm a liberal, I guess.

I consider being able to read the text as proper English the highest virtue.

 

I don't think there is an issue with having -san, -kun and etc added. Even if someone doesn't understand what they mean it doesn't really take anything away. Though I do think -san and mister are equivalent, yes you call a random person on the street mister. The difference is that english as a language has become less formal over the years, especially american english. But that doesn't mean mister doesn't match.

But it isn't a problem really.

That said, anyone who adds "ne" to end of sentences should burn for all eternity

PS this applies to japanese, for chinese, things get more complicated as no one uses the hyphens on letters for proper pin-yin so literal translations end up sometimes annoying and confusing.

 

I'm more prefer there's a translation than no translation. So who care

 

"Liberal Translation"

 

i think most people here translate without the author's input, so it's not like you can ask how they want it conveyed. so really just translate however you want to. if someone else wants to do it differently, then let them. but you should take critiques with a grain of salt especially from those who are vicious about it.

 

That made me a Moderate I guess... (though I see myself as a Literal one)...

EDIT: Also, since I am not originally an anglophone speaker, I am lenient towards grammar incorrect English since it didn't seem that weird to me (and I might not detect it anyway)......

 

If it's free and the person is doing their best, get on board and help or cheer them along, especially if they are inexperienced. Everyone starts somewhere.

Also, I have little time for whiners.

 

Audience is important.

If I were a Japanese translator translating for this community, I think it's perfectly acceptable to leave in the -san or other suffixes because I'd assume that my audience are familiar and comfortable with those terms. I think it's safe to say that most of us know the underlying connotations of -chan or -san or -sama.

If I were a Japanese translator translating for a normal English audience (i.e. one that is not familiar with manga/light novels/anime), I would leave out the suffixes because my audience is not familiar with them. I think it would add more confusion and possibly just go right over their heads. Read professional translations of literary Japanese novels like The Wind-up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami or A Personal Matter by Kenzaburo Oe and you'll see that the suffixes are dropped.

Because the translators' audience is largely for this community, I believe most literal translations are acceptable. If you want to keep a tilde (~) in the translation, go ahead since we all know what it means. If you want to keep the "nyaa", go ahead.

However, I do think there are limits to how literal you can go, even in this community.

In historical Chinese novels, you'll see things like benwang, bengong, zhen, and nucai and a whole plethora of other self-referential addresses. They can be overwhelming to readers if left untranslated. Also, if there's an English equivalent for the word, there's no reason not to use it.

In general, I'd err on the side of a more liberal translation purely because in the end, reading is about the experience, not the words.

There's this quote by Maya Angelous that goes: "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." Similarly, people will forget what they read, people will forget what happened in the book, but people will never forget how the book made them feel.

Translation should ultimately be about translating that feeling.

 

I think those liberal translation have an edge when the novel is still in writing or the TL haven't have time to read it till the end.

I forgot which novel it is, but I remember that there is a char that keep calling the MC with -san (the MC is an heir of a kingdom (?) that try to reclaim it). Once he almost win, the char are heavily wounded and before she died, she call the MC with -sama. This little scene combined with previous event about how the MC and the char debate about the suffix are able to deliver a lot of meaning. Now the TL can drop those suffix and probably will be able to deliver the same feeling, but it will be hard especially if the TL didn't know that this scene will happen.

 

I beg to differ, there are equivalents. You are simply not skilled enough to provide equivalents.
And that is not being disparaging or dissing you, since last I checked the average fan translator is not a certified translator or has studied linguistics.
Using kun, san etc is bad, you just need to look at it from another perspective instead thinking that just because something is the culture then it is correct.
Imagine if phrases like Keikaku being left in so that there is According to Keikaku every few chapters.
Needing to use a language dictionary defeats the point of translating.
Adding sir, makes a conversation formal or polite in English. It is much easier than you think.
This practice is simply promoted by those who play eroge or visual novels.
It stems from fetish.
You say it loses formality but your average reader doesn't understand what san, kun mean, so it defeats your purpose at the end of the day.
I have had people ask me to keep honorifics and not because the translator is bad( native in both Japanese and English)
It is simply a crutch now

Crap I wrote too much again.
In summary, honorifics have equivalents, the myth stemmed from those who are fetishes and/or play eroge.
Peace!

Beautiful! I got man diamonds manly tears in my eyes

 

Haha thank you, I'm honoured.

 

You are welcome. I probably should have stricken out tears lol

 

Looking back at my work, I'd fall under the liberal side, but that's because the setting of my works are Isekai. Therefore I'm under the belief that the honorific system needs modification. You are in a different world, with a multitude of cultures.

English is like the borg (from Star Trek), it assimilates all kinds of languages and stuff. So localization is mainly for a broad community. Sure I can keep my work for a small niche group by staying conservative, but I'd rather look towards a broader audience. I've also found other people translating my work into their own language, because its easier to take from English than it is from Japanese.

In my understanding there are several types of English, you have European English, American English and English Slang. European English tends to have honorifics & titles, American English & English slang is the ragtag of various localized cultures. It's why you'll hear various accents all over America, even though they all speak English.

But someone speaking English in the south Bayou, like Mississippi and someone from the Bronx in New York may have a hard time keeping a straight conversation. Its the same with English in Hawaii, the locals speak pidgin or converse in an English slang which incorporates Asian words (Chinese, Japanese, Vietmanese, Korean, etc).

 

Don't stress too much, you'll lose hair. You have a great team which backs you up. Keep doing what you do and move forward, don't let the bad actors take over your desires.

Yup, I'm in agreement with you there, thinking about your audience is a key thing to take into account.

Pretty much agree with the perspective of finding equivalents for honorifics. You can convey formal & informal speech from Japanese to English.


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On a personal level, even when I'll receive a language certification/degree (someday). I'll never consider myself an expert/professional, because language is like a growing entity. Words, phrases & sayings change with every Era. What's more, this wont be my profession. It'll remain my hobby & past-time.

 

I’m not saying it can’t be done but you need to adjust your translation to make sure you convey the meaning behind the changing of suffix. If you know about the event before hand then you can be prepared but if not then you need to do the changes on the fly and that hard.

 

I dont think that is really necessary since the authors' themselves sometimes do not know how the story will end.

 

Thats why I’m saying keeping the suffix may have benefit on handling plot twist as the TL can put a notes explaining what happen during the event while removing (and localized) the suffix may create difficulty.

Its not a good reason to keep the suffix (or other native word), I just share an experience where it happen to me and make me think what will I do if that happen to me

 

Ok, this is what makes sense to me as native English Speaker.
Character is a noble and I am their servant: Sir or Master John
Character becomes King or Prince : Your Highness/ Your Majesty
I do not think it is that difficult

 

The story doesn’t goes like that.

If I remember correctly the char didn’t know the MC is a noble. He just said that he should be respected and keep joking by introducing multiple suffix for her to call him. One time he said that she should call him Sensei, other time he said bucho, dono, heika(?) etc and yet she insist call him -san and only changed once to
-sama before she died.

Now this can still be done without having the suffix, but its not easy. Dono, heika(?) and a bunch of honorific that displayed before can be translated as your majesty, yet sama display a higher level of respect.

If the TL know about it before, they can play around saying my prince, your excelency, etc and keep your majesty/your highness/my king for that scene but if they don’t know, then they probably already use that before and the impact is not that great.

Damn, now I miss the story and I don’t even remember the novel (or it is a fanfic... I don’t remember)