Discussion Slavery

You can dislike japan as much as you want; the current japanese generation has pretty much nothing to do with what was done 70-80 years ago.

That being said... Why do you think "women and children" were always way safer in/after a war, than their grownup male counterparts? At least since mankind is able to use ranged weapons (stones, slings, (blow)darts, bows, crossbows, guns etc.) enemy women were just as deadly as men... Women were obviously raped continiously and used to 'repopulate' conquered territory. Often for more than 1 generation. Empty territory is just way less valuable than populated territory that can provide goods and slaves.

Pretty much every war and war end is full of rape and slavery to different degrees.

And to the fantasy... having a 'broken slave' find 'hope' in your basic human decency directed towards them is a pretty easy (and realistic) way to secure absolute loyalty in body and mind... People who are desperate enough don't really give a fuck about getting fucked. There is just so much worse. Those interest groups that propagate "getting raped is worse than death" while silencing (and calling them rapist(supporter)s) the opposition obviously never were in a situation where being a well treated sex slave is something to strive for.

The history of mankind isn't very kind.

 

The real problem with japan is they do not admit to those misdeeds, and their history books ignore or white wash what was done, so plenty of the populaiton doe snot even know it was a thing.
It is one thing to be the person who did the evil, but defending those peoples "honor" is also just as bad.

The british outlawed slavery and admitted it was wrong. Hell they even forced a couple countries to ban it
The americans fought a civil war over it (though the losing side seems to have not fully gotten the point)
Japan as a nation hides their use and pretends it did not happen.

 

In poor countries is not rare for the families sell their daughters to sex traffickers that put them in brothels, where they die in ten years or less.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_China

The theme is part of the wish fulfilment of some otakus. They can't approach a girl in the same standing, they are afraid of rejection, and so on, then they create this ideal woman: a slave (cannot say no), a girl that suffered so much that if you let them sleep in a bed, eat at the same time, the same food that their 'masters' are eating, becames so touched that falls in love with them and offers her body.

My opinion is that sex with slaves count as rape. The girls cannot say "no", and the ones that "asked for it" come from an abuse situation, and have so low expectations that the most basic gentlesness is taken as extraordinary.

Well, a submissive woman is the dream of most MCs and probably part of the male dreams of a lot of beta males/losers out there - a girl that they don't need to conquer/seduce. They do nothing extraordinary and are praised as the saviors of these girls. Pfff.

 

If you have sex with her against her will it is rape, slave or not.

 

I think having sex with a slave is more or less like having sex with a subaltern in the workplace. Rape. She is under your authority, she will say "I like you" even if she don't, because she has no choice...

 

It is rape and a war crime. Whether those will be pursued or not, depends on the government of the day. Japan did that to many of its neighboring Asian countries., They were trying to establish an empire after al;l

 

Yep. Not sure if it was the only country.

 

I guess it was.

 

That being said: suppressed nations that regain a certain degree of sovereignty often use lies, overexaggerations and extremely hard to deny half-truths.

Trying to pressure countries to "admit to their past sins/crimes for certain benefits" is not a way to get the truth, but a diplomatic tool to 'buy' the truth. The winner decides which events that either happen or didn't happen get taught the next generation.

It's incredibly hard to defend yourself from half-truths. Simply because the more you compromise, the more guilty you are.

Confessions and concessions are made to gain certain other benefits. If it isn't for benefits, it most likely happened with an either figurative or literal gun at the head.

 

I don't think so.
Read up on the Carribeans.
Dominican Republic and Dominica

 

It's kinda interesting for the widespread of slavery as an institution in many Japanese stories taking place in the medieval or semi-medieval era. Perhaps since their first contact with the Western countries were with the Portuguese and Spain who were a nation with slavery, the Japanese psyche associated slavery with Western Medieval period. Also perhaps if you think about it Serf is just Slavery Lite. Especially since slavery persisted even through the 21st Century (though it's officially abolished in the majority western countries in the 19th Century).

So even if we, modern people, denounce it, in medieval-like society, slavery will exist to some degree, since the concept of "Liberté, égalité, fraternité" and "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" are relatively modern inventions. After all, in a certain age or culture, being meek, gentle, and kind could be seen as a sign of weakness...

So, if it's a story set in a Pre-Industrial World it would be weird to see the lack of presence of slave (and how the society deals with the need for cheap labor without a form of slavery, etc: Golems, Spirits, or Magic Machines...). Meanwhile, it would be weird to see slavery in modern-like society with Human Rights and whatnot, unless there was a good explanation: postcapitalistic wage slavery, prison labor, cultural forced labor/marriage, human traficking, cheap laboratory rats, conquered population, or they are demihumans/robots so Human Rights not need to apply...

 

Willy Brandt, German's Chancellor, kneels in front of the monument for the Polland's jews killed by germans in WWII. Warsaw, December 7, 1970.


Japan´s former Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama bows in front of a memorial stone during his visit to the Seodaemun Prison History Hall in Seoul, South Korea. [Photo/IC]

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2015xivisitus/2015-08/14/content_21595221.htm

The problem is that the japanese used dubious terms when stating their apology. The same way the emperor used dubious terms when saying he wasn't a divine being to the japanese people, one of the surreender conditions imposed by the americans.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

The dubious terms used makes you wonder, did they really accepted their derrocade? Did they admited that it was wrong to force the chinese and corean women to be "confort women" for their troops? Did they admited that the treatment they gave to prisioners and civil population was inhumane, and a criminal offense against humanity (e.g., they had the worst survival rates for prisoners)? Aren't they apologising for not being victorious?

https://www.historyonthenet.com/world-war-two-japanese-pow-camps

 

Brazil has the dubious honor of being the last country to end slavery (officially, at least).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism

Well, at least we didn't made a war to preserve the "right to own slaves".

 

The idea that slavery in isekai novels has anything to do with the real world or history is nonsense. Just look at how the concept is applied and it becomes instantly clear that it exists for fetishism, and fetishism is the very embodiment of fantasy. Of course it's not impossible to examine historical or modern slavery through the lens of isekai but that's just not happening right now, and the stories don't care about anything other than cute slave girls.

 

Someone living with a nagging Flat-Earth mother-in-law (not me) might feel like a slave!

 

Exactly, human history is full of slavery even in modern and developed countries you could even say that some people are "corporate slaves", like how the japanese common worker is so dedicated to his work it's a detriment to the rest of his life.

Stories without slavery or pseudo-slavery (a slave in all but name) need a good reason why, humans are simply rapey and human rights are a modern thing. If your novel is set on a less developed society and there's no rape or slavery you need a good reason why, otherwise it's just naive and unrealistic.

Unquestioning loyalty and absolute servitude, these are the 2 main points why slavery is a common trope in novels. Why develop a romantic interest? Buy a slave and fuck her! Why develop loyalty with your subordinates? Buy a slave and send him to the front lines! Why hire workers and give them proper rights? Buy a slave!

It is a fetish, a power fantasy, having absolute control, loyalty and adoration from a woman, this is the dream of men, even those who say it isn't are simply lying.

Japanese simply have less qualms with writing a story with slavery than western writers. We are made to see slavery as "yucky" so we avoid it like the plague or it stands out like a sore thumb on the novels we read.

Don't touch women. Even if she's screaming "FUCK ME" all you do is talk to them and they will see the errors of their ways and become ladies.

 

Imo, using slavery to get companion in a story is a lazy way for author to add a character. I always compare jp novel with war and peace in character introduction and slavery is one of laziest way, only second to summoned girl to add to mc companion.

 

Slavery can be done well in a story. JP novel slaves are normally very shallow. Full of torture and mistreatment then the point of slavery was pushed away as soon as the MC get the slave girl harem. Slaves suffer in the scarcity of food and goods, hard work, the cold uncaring treatment, and unjust punishment. But they were valued as workers and merchandise. A skilled slave can be treated reasonably well.

Rarely would we see any slave working in JP novel (even though that was kinda the point of slavery). Hell, the slaves were often treated so badly they cannot work. Normally we only see someone treated slave badly, MC save the slave, and that's it.

We don't get to see farms or mines worked by slaves that often. Even domestic slaves are rare. We often only get to see some slave master/merchant who doesn't know how to maintain their slaves.

 

Rape is all about forcing yourself against an unwilling person... If the slave is fine with it, or even willing to do it, it's not rape. Otherwise, it's rape.

 

It can be rape even if the slave was consenting. If you have power over someone, a la Harvey Weinstein, even if you have sex with that person consensually, it's still considered a form of coercion.

The slave party might view it as a transaction(for better treatment..etc) or be doing the deed because the master literally holds his or her life/existence in their hands. They don't have the power(even will) nor the right to say no. Even if treated better or cajoled into it, there's still that power play hanging in the background.

So it is rape or coerced sexual assault, due to the overwhelming owner-slave dynamic.