Discussion Do you think this was justified?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Cutter Masterson, Aug 9, 2019.

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Was it justified?

  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    27.3%
  2. No

    3 vote(s)
    13.6%
  3. Only in the beginning

    11 vote(s)
    50.0%
  4. It’s never okay to hurt a living being

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. They got what they deserve

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. She should have just tried to scare them

    2 vote(s)
    9.1%
  1. Cutter Masterson

    Cutter Masterson Well-Known Super-Soldier

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    Ok... Remind me never get you angry.
     
  2. Das

    Das Lazing around Devil's Luck

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    now while I agree with most of this, the second exception I have to pick apart. if the attacker has a gun, it depends on its positioning. if it is currently not pointed at you or anyone else, then tried to dissuade them but be ready to shoot them till they hit the ground if they indicate they are going to harm you or another nearby or raise their weapon, cause a jerky reaction, etc that indicates their intent. now if they have their weapon raised at you? then pray you get the first shot off. dont leave it to chance that you can talk them down. put a bullet in them instead of risking your life and others nearby on a chance. now that being said, if the two opposing sides happen to know each other well, say husband and wife... or good friends, for whatever reason there is for opposition. then it might be possible. but say it is you and a random mugger? not worth the risk
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
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  3. userunfriendly

    userunfriendly A Wild Userunfriendly Appears!

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    Who’s with me to buy a bulletproof vest?:blobhighfive:
     
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  4. Das

    Das Lazing around Devil's Luck

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    you wouldnt like me when I'm angry lol
     
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  5. Das

    Das Lazing around Devil's Luck

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    already have one, but not for the reasons you're thinking of lol
     
  6. asriu

    asriu fu~ fu~ fu~

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    raccoon bread.jpg
    nope
    nay
    it over da top

    as cat from country which gun is illegal for civilians, well technically civilians can have limited gun but very strict requirement and regulations, based just from video it is overboard

    oh well another case to add reason why my country shouldn't let civilians carry gun~
    raccoon bread.jpg
     
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  7. Cutter Masterson

    Cutter Masterson Well-Known Super-Soldier

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    I don’t know. All of a sudden I’m intrigued enough or stupid enough to want to actually see it.
     
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  8. Cutter Masterson

    Cutter Masterson Well-Known Super-Soldier

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    I wouldn’t mind, but their expensive.
     
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  9. KurouDaijuji

    KurouDaijuji Well-Known Member

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    If they faint or fall down when you shoot them, they're no longer a threat, & so from that point shooting them would be a crime, possibly murder.

    However if you draw your weapon without the intent to kill, you have not met the threshold of justification for drawing or firing your weapon in the first place.

    "Self-defense" as a defense is reliant on the belief that you are acting in the belief that your actions are justified by preserving the life of yourself, or someone other than the person whose threat prompted you to draw your weapon, if you threaten someone with your weapon, or if you shoot to wound rather than to kill, the prosecution can claim you were not in fear someone was going to die, & you therefore did not have grounds to shoot (or possibly draw) in the first place.
     
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  10. lnv

    lnv ✪ Well-Known Hypocrite

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    But if the person withdraws, that also means they aren't a threat. And when you have video evidence of them withdrawing but you shoot them anyways? Again, situations changes by the moment.

    Most of the time, you don't have video evidence, so it ends up a he said-she said. So people can make guesses about the situation. But here, there is nothing to guess. The moment the gun was drawn, everyone fled, there was no threat. So shooting in that scenario was already reckless endangerment.
     
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  11. Das

    Das Lazing around Devil's Luck

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    very few people have seen me angry, I tend to blow up and bring out all the shit they've done or fucked up. it ain't pretty
     
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  12. KurouDaijuji

    KurouDaijuji Well-Known Member

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    As I said in my first post, chasing them might be justified if you believe they're an ongoing threat to others.

    So if she believed the one she chased was armed, or likely to attack someone else, she could use "defense of others" as a defense (though not necessarily successfully), the fact that the attempted murder charge was dropped suggests that she might indeed have given just such a reason, but that she is being charged with aggravated assault suggests the police or DA didn't believe she had grounds for that claim (or, perhaps, continued belief) at the time she fired the shots that dealt the wounds.
     
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  13. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    Just watched the video and holy shit! This woman really shouldn't be given a gun license! Her shots go everywhere! She's more of a danger to the other customers than the two women who beat her up.

    I can understand that the court charged her with aggravated assault and not homicide, as homicide is something else. If you go out of your way to plan and execute a murder, then that's homicide. This is just her reacting to a threat of bodily injury. And went overboard with it, someone else could've been shot in the head!

    Remind Ai-chan that next time Ai-chan has to go to the USA, to refuse outright. Bulletproof vests and tactical helmet is just not fashionable. Well, there you go, a business idea! Start a bulletproof vest and tactical helmet line that looks sexy. It'd be an Isacc Asimov tribute!
     
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  14. KurouDaijuji

    KurouDaijuji Well-Known Member

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    Training isn't all it's cracked up to be, there was a case several years ago where (IIRC) 11 trained NYPD officers surrounded, at close range, a target who was on the ground, then unloaded over 100 bullets at him, & only managed to hit 2 of their own number...

    The charge that was dropped was attempted murder, success not required.

    That being said I understand it's a fairly common charge if you shoot someone without sufficient provocation, especially if you live somewhere that requires you to pass a course on the legalities of using your concealed weapon before you can get the permit (the whole "you don't shoot at something you don't intend to kill" rule).
     
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  15. Lithit

    Lithit Desu~'s Little Griffin

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    Like I said, the Jury is very much out on what to do if you draw on someone and they also draw on you. While there is value to what you've said, it should be noted that when things like self-defense and guns are involved, it can be hard to make calm rational decisions and what you thought might have been someone about to shoot you may have just been someone acting nervously. It is very common for people with guns to think they are being threatened and shoot when really they weren't in much danger. Should you find yourself in this situation, you will most likely be sentenced, unless you have a damn good lawyer or are very lucky.

    And while I can't speak definitively, as I don't have the stats on this and a cursory google search turned up nothing, I would bet money that more often than not, the situation ends up with no gunshots being fired if the victim chooses to remain calm and expresses their unwillingness to fire.

    Now I will tell you, that depending on where you are in the world and who has you in a stand-off, that this could backfire spectacularly. Some criminals will end up in this situation and just immediately shoot you, in which case you would have been best off getting a shot off as quickly as possible.

    I will say that if you drew first though, and shot the second they drew (or reached to draw rather), there would be a worryingly large (though probably still less than 50%) chance that you might lose your 'self-defense' defense and still get charged with 3rd or 2nd-degree murder.

    I feel like a bit of an ass pointing out this technicality, but I've already made two walls of text in this thread, so I feel like there's no point stopping now.

    Homicide refers simply to the act of a person killing another person. It extends to all contexts such a blanket definition would imply; euthanasia, killing during a war, capital punishment, Justified self-defense, etc.

    Homicide is, however commonly used when referring to its legal (criminal) context, in which case, there are 2 broad categories of homicide; murder and manslaughter.
    Murder: is the intentional and unlawful killing of a person. 1st degree when it was premeditated and 2nd degree when it was in the heat of the moment, but still very intentional.

    Manslaughter (sometimes known as 3rd-degree murder): is the unintentional killing of someone due to recklessness or negligence. There is voluntary manslaughter, where you meant to do something non-lethal to someone that unwittingly ends up killing them (Punch your friend and he ends up dying from a head injury), and involuntary manslaughter when your reckless or negligent action unwittingly causes the death of someone (A carnival worker not properly securing the seatbelt of a roller coaster rider) Involuntary manslaughter also falls under the umbrella term of criminal negligence*.

    It's kind of hard to express the difference between voluntary manslaughter and 2nd-degree murder (and generally even harder to prove it), but it all boils down to this:
    In that moment when you committed the act that killed the person, did you knowingly act in such a way where their death would be likely outcome of your action? If yes, 2nd- degree murder, if no, voluntary manslaughter

    *This is only kinda true, as criminal negligence is not an offense in the same way that involuntary manslaughter is. The former is the action, the latter is the outcome.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
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  16. Ushiyama Tatsuma

    Ushiyama Tatsuma Devilish Judoka • Big Breeder ☆

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    What comes first is learning how to actually point or direct a gun at your target, notice how she shot after pulling out the gat? She's lucky those shots didn't kill her intended targets and other Unintended ones.

    If that was me with the strap i would've aimed for non-lethal positions on the body—Scratch that i would've chased since I've two working legs and pummeled them, instead of using a firearm when it isn't needed,its best to use the roscoe only when you're assaulted with a weapon yourself.
     
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  17. Ushiyama Tatsuma

    Ushiyama Tatsuma Devilish Judoka • Big Breeder ☆

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    This is America~!



    Don't catch you slippin' up.:p
     
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  18. Das

    Das Lazing around Devil's Luck

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    as for the first paragraph, that depends on the location and the local da, chances are as long as you arent in a liberal area(dont mean that in a bad way) then the da wont even press charges, depending on the circumstances of course. When adrenaline pumps through you tho it is hard to make a rational decision, full agreement there, guns only complicate that further. which is why if you dont train with a gun on a regular basis then you shouldnt have one in the first place as situations can spiral out of control. now that's not the case everytime, it has happened enough to at least warrant being said. case in point, the ady in the video should never have had that gun imo.

    as for the statistics? unless you wanna dig through the UCR(uniform crime reporting statistics) or the other two reporting statistic programs whose names escape me atm, then those will be hard to find. though it should be said, that all three have authorities input the statistics in different ways that cause them not to be 100% accurate.

    and as for the last paragraph? in the case of self defense, even if you are the one being, let's say mugged. say he doesnt have anything to threaten you with but his hands, if you pull out a gun first, then you are the one escalating the situation, tho it is often not looked at like that when the circumstances are factored in. also, depending on the state, self defense laws change. you cant kill someone over property in the case of being mugged, but say a life is at risk you can. Only gonna be talking about tennessee law here as that is the one I'm most familiar with. though with property, we have the castle law. we have the right to defend out homes from intruders. someone illegally enters my house? he's gonna get a few new holes plain and simple and it is self defense.

    I think I got side tracked there, either way, it all boils down to the circumstances and the location as state laws will play a big factor in whether it will be considered self defense or not
     
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  19. Lithit

    Lithit Desu~'s Little Griffin

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    Yeah, sounds about right.
     
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  20. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    So in other words, they suck ass and giving guns to these people can be considered criminal negligence?
     
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