Spoiler Latest Chapter Discussion Thread for Death Mage Raws

Discussion in 'Spoilers' started by FussyBadger, Nov 25, 2017.

  1. xacual

    xacual Well-Known Member

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    The only thing Alda can do is if he gives up maintaining the world to strike back, but that's a "If I'm going down, I'm taking all of you with me." end.
     
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  2. LordZero25

    LordZero25 Active Member

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    Do you really need to die to ascend? What's stopping him to at least have 2 active forms the spirit (divine) and his physical form.

    Just like you said i'm not updated with the raws. The most i did was to read the spoilers from reddit. But i do believe that there is no way that Rodcorte will come out unscathed at the end of this story.
     
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  3. Eddy andres

    Eddy andres Well-Known Member

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    if vandeliu reaches a high enough level, could he see the memories of the souls he devours? If so, that would facilitate many things such as the handling of reincarnation circles and elements and thanks to root it will be difficult to make the same mistakes as them.
     
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  4. ssj4maiko

    ssj4maiko Welcome Back Sadpanda!

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    [​IMG]
    I wonder, was it not expressed so many times? Do I have this impression only because I read the impressions page so many times and instead of reporting everything, I just select was is new, not realizing that what I considered so obvious is actually never expressed in the story?

    I know this sort of "ignoring the MC's own psychology" has been running astray on the non-spoiler channel on discord, with people now saying that Van will finally be able to kill Amemiya and have his "revenge", or that he could kill gods and allies to raise more power to so be more powerful (for absolutely no reason). It's tiring...

    So let me remind you guys...

    Van doesn`t want to be a God.

    No, seriously, he doesn`t want to be a god, he still even considers himself to be human to the point that Darock laughs thinking Van is seriously joking. This is also repeated many times in Densuke's answers where he speaks like Van: Van is human, even the fact that he should be able to Nyoronyoro for Mei is conflicting, because on one side she likes it, on another side, "humans can't nyoronyoro, you know?".

    So, if you can't see it in the story, I can only rely on my own word here, but I can assure you:

    Van doesn't want to be a God

    This is not to say he wouldn`t turn into one if he was FORCED into it, but is he aiming for that? I can assure you: No

    Van is NOT the reincarnation of Zakkart.
    This is something that has been expressed many times by himself too.

    He is a completely different entity whose soul is made of the 4 creation heroes broken souls (+some DK Death Magic that was around) patched in an unprofessional way and reincarnated thousands of times since then on Earth.

    Van is more of a reincarnation of a random tree on Earth than the reincarnation of Zakkart himself.
    Although one could argue that his obsession for muscles comes from Solder, and so on and so fort, the story, up until now, has not been treating him as their reincarnation, but as their successor, not the one that inherited their genes or powers, but the ones who inherited their will, this could be anyone, it's just that due to circumstances, it was just Van who reached such level and had such support from the gods, but for all we know, Veld himself could have been a successor of their will in the past too.
    - "Veld was not the successor of the creation heroes will, duh, isn't that obvious?"
    Yes, that was just an analogy, but sometimes you need to repeat the obvious to make people realize. To inherit ones will, you don't need to be a descendant. direct or not, neither it needs to be by genetics, family or "related soul", you just need to follow similar ideas, just like Schneider who took the initiative to save Vida's races.

    As such, there is no need for Van to take over Vida's feats for himself, besides, that should also be a source of power to her, should Van rip all of her work for himself? Is that it?
    A God is someone with no Physical Body, while a Demi-God is a God with a Physical Body.
    Yes, that's the sole difference.

    This means that to ascend to Godhood you need to die. I'm not talking about dying in battle, but dying in a ritual, committing suicide, all of these also work.

    And then he will turn into a God! Isn`t that AMAZINGLY GOOD!? What extra things would he be able to do if he were a full fledged God!? Let`s count it:
    • Because it's an existence that is not as stable as one with a physical body, Van would lose all the benefits and freedom of having one!
    • He would require prayers to recover himself!
    • He wouldn't be able to directly visit anywhere, because God's can't descend anywhere in the planet without a physical body!
    • He would have a boring job!
    • Van may even get an Authority, limiting his actions EVEN MORE!
    • He would stay away from best Mom who is immortal! Unless he kills her too! GREAT IDEA!
    • Because being a God is certainly better than just being a noble (Don't ask me why, you are implying it)
    • Because although Vida is a friend that already does this job, she should just give up as the incompetent goddess she is and give Van full authority and load him with the boring job!
    Wait... It feels worse than it should be...

    Can any of you please find a reason why Van would betray his character trait for the sake of your generic expectations?
     
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  5. jemini

    jemini Well-Known Member

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    Here are some other things Van didn't want to be.

    Engaged, King, Emperor, A teacher, A hero, A saint, A demon king, A revolutionary leader. Yet, despite that, somehow he winds up not only being those things, but doing a FAR far better job than anyone who has ever sought out the position, and once he winds up somehow stumbling into the position he goes on to proactively help the people he's suddenly responsible for.

    Also, he's got a gigantic god statue that was constructed against his will, and he IS the god of Origin and is now doing a better job for Origin as its god than that combined mess ever did. Van doesn't have to want to be a god, he's going to stumble into it in the same way he has stumbled into all those previous things I've listed off, and he's going to be the best at it as well just like he's the best at all those things I listed off.

    Really, Van not wanting to be these things is more of a running gag at this point. Part of the point of this whole thing is 1. the comedy of it, and 2. more practically, an illustration of the axiom that those most suited to hold power are the ones who absolutely do not want to have it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
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  6. Eddy andres

    Eddy andres Well-Known Member

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    ssj4maiko half of the arguments in the list can be invalidated with vandeliu's abilities to divide his soul or use multiple thinking (like) in a body created on his own or with the ricklent root. and as jemini said, whether vandeliu or we are left he will end up in one way or another as a god of death (or reincarnation, cooking, breasts, crawling beings etc), the interesting thing as always is to see how , when and why.
     
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  7. hillo315

    hillo315 Intact but Tactless

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    True, but Van is not strictly against being a god either, as long as it doesn't get in the way of what he wants.

    So it's just a self image problem? That's not a huge deal, is it? The ability to nyoronyoro never stopped Van from eating good food or having good friends or going to school or being an adventurer. Being a god of Origin never stopped him, either.

    It's the same soul. Tomato, tomahto.

    All true. The fact that his soul once belonged to four champions has no bearing on who he is now. But I think you're worrying too much about the exact meaning of reincarnation. Take off the semantic bifocals.

    Or you can be Van, and accidentally exist in two different states of being at once.

    On the other hand, he is effectively immortal unless he starves to nonexistence or earns the hostility of a death attribute person.

    Or affect the world in some significant way, such as by managing souls.

    Technically, he can. The issue is that he wouldn't be able to maintain it for long before needing to go back home to recharge.

    Even as a god, Van should still be able to meet Darcia in her dreams. No death required.

    Vida has plenty of other jobs, and sharing some of the burden with other gods is not a terrible idea.

    Does that mean Origin is now experiencing divine phenomena? It's weird that the narrator glossed over something so significant.
     
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  8. toxinpsd

    toxinpsd Well-Known Member

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    Van soul is not the same as zakkart's soul
     
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  9. jemini

    jemini Well-Known Member

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    About reincarnation, I think as web novel readers a lot of us have gotten a strange idea in regards to what is and isn't reincarnation. Throughout the entire history of the word being used, it has ALWAYS meant same soul, different body, different life, and has NEVER had the connotation of keeping the memories or even the personality of your previous life. So, in the traditional sense, Van IS the reincarnation of Zakkart, no if, ands, or buts about it. It's just that he can't remember that past life. Same goes for the other three creation champions.

    For the question of whether or not Van needs to die to be a god, he's already god of Origin and he didn't have to die to make that happen. He's a physical being and a god at the same time due to his Root skill. Also, the god of Origin is more powerful than all the Lamba gods combined, so if anyone can manage two worlds at the same time it's going to be the god of Origin. Or, maybe it will be the god of Origin who takes over Rodcorte's reincarnation system while Van's demigod physical body stays on Lamba.
     
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  10. toxinpsd

    toxinpsd Well-Known Member

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    I get the feeling that this is like the "Ship of Theseus" paradox
     
  11. Nimitz

    Nimitz Well-Known Member

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    You forgot being a trap.
     
  12. Nimitz

    Nimitz Well-Known Member

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    Vida and Van could work together on the system. Just saying the goddess of life and love and a god of death and hate would be better than idiot god.

    Also Origin gods are different than Lamba gods. Origin require belief to be a god. Lamba it just helps with power. Can't remember where it was said, idiot god mentioned that different worlds come into being in many ways. The same thing as gods.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  13. ssj4maiko

    ssj4maiko Welcome Back Sadpanda!

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    Never really said anything about that (I'm guessing you are talking about the Sauron Duchy)
    This is something forced onto him, be it because the blood invaded him, or be it the gods of status, skills and jobs.
    Because of this he had to be extra careful when he found out Alex saw his status.

    Yes, the main reason why Van reacted the way he did against Alex was because of the Demon King named stuff, otherwise, he didn't really care that much.
    Was he against being a Hero? I remember well when Diana called him a Champion/Hero and he confirmed it 2 times because it was important. Certainly he didn't expect to be Miko told by Nuaza, but at that time he simply told him "You must have gotten the wrong person" but even then, Nuaza's descriptions were more accurate than he expected.
    Was he against it? I had an impression that he just said that they most likely got the wrong person or something.
    Van never had any problem in teaching people how to do stuff, he was always a natural teacher. I'm guessing you are referring to his current situation at school where he is supposed to be a student, in which case the problem isn't that he is treated as a teacher, but that he isn't treated as a student anymore.

    for someone who wished for a fulfilling school life, not being treated as a student is the problem.
    Before being announced King of Talosheim, Van said that although they are making him that, it would be a waste on him, because his plans were about moving to Orbaum Kingdom (Which he learned from Darcia as being a place of Vida races and freedom) and stay there, sometimes going back to Talosheim to visit or something.

    It was after visiting the Hartner Duchy that he understood that Orbaum was also a bad place, and if there is no good place somewhere else, he understood that he would would have to do it himself.

    And of course although he is labeled King and Emperor, he doesn't follow the same limitations as the other kings and emperors in the world (They would never be able to stay 1 year time in a foreign land, for example, and stay over that).
    Although he certainly didn't expect to be courted so early on, but considering that he already had made a promise to Basdia when he was 2 years old, and he was already a King, he took it as part of the responsibilities of the job.
    Indeed, in all these cases, he ended up doing a far better job... Than who?

    - Raymond and Iris as revolutionary leaders? Those are not really good comparisons, not that he cared much about the revolution anyway.
    - Who else was a Saint?
    - If you consider Heinz as a Hero, indeed he does a better job than him in regards to Vida's races, even Heinz agreed with that, but we know very well how Heroes work in Lambda. The only Hero of Vida would end up being Schneider, if you can call him a Hero, that is.
    - In Talosheim he was already the main teacher and guider, there was no other pretty much, however, even he had things that he couldn't teach and needed to learn. Kanako is doing just as good of a job as a teacher.
    - Mashkzar and the Orbaum Dukes? That's not a good comparison. I guess we could compare with the Kings from inside the nation, but we only met them after Bugitas/Ravovifard's mess, so I don't think it's good to compare normal Van vs "after war Other Kingdoms". The Kings however didn't mind being under Van, mostly because their gods also suggested to do that.

    Oh, so I see, as you are saying, Van will be a better God all the pre existing ones, is that it? Better God than Vida, Zantark, Ricklent, Zuruwarn, Botin and Peria! Such incompetent people.

    Then Van will manage the Death Attribute (that doesn't need to be managed because it doesn't exist naturally in Lambda)!

    Really... u_ú

    You do remember that this 2 points entered in conflict, right? He was against the Statue in a personal level, but he won't force that onto others, and he will proactively help others.

    As Kari mentioned recently, Van has a way to talk that he never directly blames others, he is very passive in the way he "complains".

    No, a part of him is a part of God of Origin.
    It is important to remember is that Van and Van God of Origin are the same thing as Van and Banda, although they are able to synchro with each other, but they are not always connected, they can be thought as individuals already.

    In case you don't remember, Van God of Origin asked Banda tell the main body that he wishes Good Luck to deal with Rokudou just before Banda sent the Bravers to the Inner World to talk with main Van.

    And what do you mean by "doing a better job"? Are you insinuating that a world with no active god and people live by themselves is inferior to one where they are? The only thing that Van is doing now is blessing the Bravers for them to fix this situation now, and only because HE CAN. What do I mean by that?

    Due to his actions in descending upon Earth to stop Rokudou, he was detected, and the 8th Guidance believers + US announced him as the God Undead, which triggered his root source skill turning the original Fake Copy God (That would be similar to Pluto God of Origin) into a part of himself.

    This means that God of Origin Van not only is based on the original Van with all his biased opinions, he also has the most influence due to the actions of Main Soul Van. No other God had such possibility of having such a strong influential action done to fortify them, and as such, Van is able to dictate most of decisions in Gods of Origin.

    Of course, it's not like it's some sort of democracy in the first place, just that if, let's say that Jesus decided to bless someone with X amount of blessing, the Christian Devil would do the same to antagonize the first.

    Van is now technically able to offer Y amount of blessing, while Y > X, and it's not hard to consider that Y > ZX, where Z is an unknown but pretty big multiplier.

    Suffice to say, Van God of Origin is the most influential part in Gods of Origin, but he expects that to only remain for a few centuries until he is forgotten and ceases to exist.

    Saying that "Van is doing a better job as a God of Origin" is ridiculous considering that not only "better" is relative, Origin is another world with other problems and so on, if they never needed God of Origin, then that's good, unless you think that all Gods should act like the Christian contradictory god did on Earth (Although that entity doesn't exist in Real Life, invalidating the argument)
    See, you may not have noticed before, but all you have been comparing Van before was either to people that were already incompetent or already limited in resources/knowledge, and now you are using that as an argument to say that he will do a better job than actually competent Gods from his faction that he is allied with.

    Let's also not forget that the reason these Gods don't help him more is because they have been weakened. 100K years with not much prayer (the limitations of being a God) does that to Gods, and the world after Alda is that much of a mess.

    You are comparing Van who is a full exception to the rule (He is a Demi-God [Due Demi-god skill] with access to the Status System. There is NO ONE else with such benefit) with other Gods and Demi-Gods, and thinking that Van is superior to them.

    So make a revision of some basic and obvious things:

    - Divine Power and Mana are two different things.

    Remember when Van destroyed Vida's stakes, and both she and Ricklent told Van that destroying such stakes simply with Mana is something that could be considered as "easy" even though it's a huge amount?
    This also explains how Vida was able to lift the BMR even though she is a Goddess of Life and Love, not of Earth, or how Alda was able to rejuvenate his heroes, even though he can't use Life Attribute.

    - Authorities limit the actions of Gods.

    Rod is a much more powerful God than the Gods of Lambda, yet in a fight, he is weaker than Fidirg. Why? That's due to his authority not being combat related. Due to his authority, the best he would be able to do is take someone's soul and give then a Cheat and power to overwhelm Fidirg in such situation, but Rod can't win if he is not able to attack, but of course, it wouldn't be an instant win either, as Fidirg would need a lot of time to deal with Rod even if Rod were to stay in place and not run away.


    - Physical Bodies stabilize a Soul/God-like existence.

    Demi-gods are not limited by authorities however, because they have a Physical Body. while a God needs prayer to recover and can be changed if the belief in them is modified (Like Heroic God Merebeveil), a Demi-God (God with a Physical body) can essentially be forgotten and still exist. Same for Alda who turned into Lord god Alda, God of Fate due to the amount of time that he was the sole active god.

    This is not to say that Gods are "unstable existences", just that they can be changed by belief, but also that as long as they don't waste their Divine Power, they can still keep on existing even without belief, however, their recovery will be null, unless they make their believers, like Fidirg when he made the Lizardmen.

    We can see that in Origin. The reason why Banda is stable is because Mei is his vessel.

    And the reason why Van's descent was like that was because he didn't had a body to stabilize him.
    Once Van (God of Origin) was assimilated to him, then he was able to stabilize himself due to the stability of the God he was associated with.

    This is also what the Angels told Rokudou. If Rokudou were to fight unstable Van, he may not have been able to defeat him directly, but he would eventually find a way to cause the damage that Van was trying to prevent. However the moment Van was stable in Origin, that advantage was gone and he would just die the moment he landed.

    I also believe (to express that this is not a fact, but a reasoning I reached upon some facts) that Gods of Origin seem to be able to detect everything in Origin. Unlike Lambda where there are multiple Gods hence you can only detect your believers or see stuff from the sky like a telescope, in Gods of Origin you can do that, but easier, as Van is able to see unexplored places and even see people that don't pray to him, as, according to him, although it's easier to see those that pray to him, watching those who don't is just like watching from an old TV with bad resolution and quality.
    Hence when I say that Rokudou would die the moment he landed, I'm saying it literally.
    And this recharge period would be that much extensive.
    Who needs the warmth of Mama Darcia when you can do things through Dreams? "It's the same thing. I will never wake up again and live my own fake reality."

    Are you insinuating that? :facepalm:
    So after the death of the Champions, people from outside that were called to save their world, and having 4 of those Champions killed, then manipulated by Rod into Earth to live terrible lives and finally be back in Lambda, where Vida rescues him from his terrible destiny, the soul of those who were used by the Gods of Lambda and killed with no proper thanks given.

    Then she says "Thanks Van, I hope you can keep on doing a good job for the rest of your immortal life, because this is the destiny that the readers are expecting from you. I'm sorry for that."

    Such a benefiting ending, Van, who has done more than most to save the world, will be rewarded with infinite amounts of work to maintain the world. :aww: ... :blobfearful: Wait, this doesn't sound as good as it was supposed to be...
    The 4 champions had their souls broken.

    You don't seem to understand what this means, so let me explain: You cease to exist and turn into soul particles.

    Let me use your example in another way: People are made of Atoms. Hitler was made of Atoms, some of those atoms may now be found into animals, plants, people and stuff, so these animals, plants, people and stuff are the reincarnation of Hitler.

    This feels dumb, doesn't it?

    Let me say it again, Van is more of a reincarnation of a random Tree, Animal and Person in Earth than being a reincarnation of Zakkart, Ark, Solder and Hillwillow, because those 4 souls were broken, as such, it goes beyond mere "Can't remember".

    Of course, Soul physics don't really exist in reality and Densuke can just pull any explanation out of his ass to say anything he wants, but if you are going to use a real world logic, then I shall use the same to explain how non-sense it is.
    No, that's due to his Demi-God skill. As long as he has a physical body he is a Demi-god. Van and Van (God of Origin) are individual entities able to synchronize to some extent, but just as Van can't exist in Origin due to physics, God of Origin can't exist in Lambda due to how god of Origin works (which in case was forgotten, Gods of Origin are not independent Gods like those in Lambda, but are gods that solely exist due to humans)
    Hoo, where have you seen this? I wonder now.

    The only comparison I remember is that Rod thought that Van would make everyone in Origin undead to pray for him and Vida, and as such give Vida and himself an big advantage over Alda. There was never any direct comparison on who is stronger between the different worlds (It doesn't even make sense to compare, so if they did, please, to remind me of where I can find it.).

    But what advantage would that be? My guess would be due to the amount of prayers. Not only would Vida recover and fortify herself as a boost, if she and Alda were to fight using all of their Divine Power, Alda would need to recover with his Millions of believers, and Vida would recover with Billions. Now I wonder, who would most likely win this fight where one side has over 10+ times the recovery rate of Divine Power from the other side?

    Now, this is just a guess and not a fact, however, it's also not a fact that Gods of Origin and Lambda were directly compared (My memory has no record of that). I'm just expressing that there are different ways to interpret that.

    Also another thing that it's important to remember is that this was just an idea that Rod had Van would do. similar to how he thought Rokudou would never succeed in replicating Death Attribute, Rod doesn't seem to be very good in guessing things that never happened before. We don't even know if Rokudou still has his cheats and fortune, because Rod didn't know.

    -----------

    There are no or hardly any benefits in being a God for Van, but there are much more demerits.
    However reason for that? There is absolutely no essential one right now.

    ----------------

    Lol, just came in my mind, "the cake is the reincarnation of all those eggs!"
    Chefs could be just called Gods at this point
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  14. jemini

    jemini Well-Known Member

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    You know? You really DO NOT need the attitude there. I can respond to your arguments here, and under normal circumstances I would, but you seem to be insisting on turning this hostile and I have no desire to have a debate with someone who is out to do nothing but twist my words and take the most uncharitable interpretation possible on every conceivable angle, discount my points as automatically wrong, and having such a big opinion of yourself and your own interpretation as the only right one.

    We're all just trying to have fun here, theorizing on different things that may be possible. Nobody is trying to tear down or insult anyone's favorite character. Stop trying to insinuate that we are.

    This is not going to be productive, and until you can come off yourself I'm going to refrain from going any further with this discussion.
     
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  15. vannn

    vannn Well-Known Member

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    Van's sole driving motivation is to have the adolescence/family life he never got on two planets. Does becoming a god:

    A) Impede that cause?
    B) Further that cause?

    I would say there's some reason to believe it's B. If only that his immediate enemies up the ante power level wise, and unless we get a clever diplomatic resolution (would love to see the author stick that landing), he necessarily needs to be UNTO a god to protect the life he has now. Further than that though, there's no reason to believe he'll be any more active than he needs to be. The reincarnation circle, albeit important, doesn't seem like a source of power or some mcguffin that the protagonist needs to claim, so I'm unconvinced that he'd ever take on one or any administration duties outside his own kingdom.
     
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  16. S.a.w..

    S.a.w.. Well-Known Member

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    Wasn’t it mentioned that Van can perfect the system of Vida’s reincarnation cycle? Or am I confusing that with when Vida said they needed someone who controlled death(souls?) to resurrect the champions from residual thoughts?
     
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  17. ssj4maiko

    ssj4maiko Welcome Back Sadpanda!

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    I guess people have different interests in what they want here, who would have thought. But there is a difference in between "Theorizing on different things" and "Theorizing on different things that may be possible". I'm all of the second one, but what I was seeing was the first one. The difference is simple, the second one must not ignore facts and character traits, the first one is a fanfic.

    Now, my intention was simple, to bash on idiotic ideas that seem to ignore what they ALSO imply for. We have some cases in the story itself about this sort of thing, here are 2 examples:

    - Nineroad suggested Alda for Rodcorte to accept at least the Vida races without a rank on his system, and she left it at that. Nineroad is a good person, right? Rod told Alda that sure, it can be done, but only after Vida's system is taken down, and so Alda now would need to ask Vida to take her system down, which he knows she won't do, or take out her divinity. Nineroad's dreamy suggestion is now to take Vida's Divinity, and the girl herself didn't even notice. That's bad.

    - Bellwood was against the use of anything Nuclear because of course, Nuclear is bad for the environment, that's a good thing, right? To stop a nuclear-like weapon. And the rest you know how it happened, and you guys also now how Bellwood is now.

    So by saying that Van will trample over his allies feats, while also ignoring his own internal objectives, this is not something that I see as "possible", and is in the realm of fanfics.

    As such, this is annoying.

    So all I did was to explain a ton of basics above, if I got something wrong, by all means, correct me. What am I ignoring? What am I getting wrong? I'm all for moving sides as long as I'm convinced.
     
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  18. jemini

    jemini Well-Known Member

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    There goes that attitude again. I was in the 2nd category as well, and my posts were to point out where, contrary to your grating and inappropriately hostile comments directed at everyone, the stuff other people were suggesting actually DOES work out according to the previously laid out characterization in the story and the pattern of events with how Densuke repeatedly writes his scenarios (and has got a pretty solid history of doing such things to this point as well.)

    You are the one drawing boxes around things and saying things that are possible aren't. And, you are also so full of yourself that you start launching snarky condescending attacks on everyone who disagrees with you. I'm calling that out right here and now. You are making this thread a hostile place for no good reason and turning a fun conversation into a battle full of hard feelings. That is not appropriate.

    You can disagree with us on whether or not this is possible without the sarcastic snarky attitude and twisting everyone's words as though they are trying to make Van kill the entire universe.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  19. Eddy andres

    Eddy andres Well-Known Member

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    Can someone tell me the names, powers and history of the creation champions, please.

    I do not know if you did not put the ability to create zakkart because almost everyone here already knows it but for everything else, thank you very much @Zing, I had not noticed at what time they specifically spoke of their powers, especially in the case of ark I didn't know anything about, you've done me a great favor.

    incidentally I have another question, if a person is reincarnated as an animal but the bleaching process is not carried out, in which it becomes, in a hybrid, a monster or a more or less normal animal with the human mind?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
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