Well said. I've volunteered in various social organizations, done several entrepreneurial activities in various industries, and met many individuals (scam artists, drug addicts, people with psychological disorders, ex-cons, blue-collar/white-collar criminals, etc). I've personally known and seen embezzlers and scammers being charged and go to jail. Needless to say I've had my share of being scammed. The one common problem with all victims (myself included) is the inflated sense of being a good judge of character. Doesn't matter how educated or smart you think you are. Anyone who ever tells you they've never lost money or been scammed, or that you're stupid for falling for it is just utterly delusional. Just the fact that you picked up a robocall unknowingly is already a count against you. Unless you work in criminal psychology for years, it's all too easy to fall into schemes, especially if they are perpetrated by people you trust. The first and hardest step to stop being a victim/possible victim is acknowledging that we are not good judges of character. To use a somewhat trivial but common example, how many people have complained about how their boyfriends/girlfriends later turned out to be total douchebags? =) Even if the perpetrator is a genuinely good person, (@Ai chan 's later example about Madeleine Albright / HerbaLife MLM products), it's probably difficult to separate good intentions from bad products/services. Think of how many well-meaning referrals we've made that turned out to be harmful (e.g. the "great" plumber/mechanic/lawyer/doctor that you've never used, but you're so utterly confident that your friend should use). I get that (most) commentators here are trying to be helpful, but let's respect that uninformed advice is just as dangerous. If you're uncertain, then please refer the person to established professional help (911, etc).
The greatest Red Alert villain is Yuri. Yes, whoever disagree are idiots. That being said, does your father even understand that the investment thing he's joining is a pyramid scheme? In many cases, it is not so clear, as MLM isn't always a pyramid scheme, but pyramid schemes are always MLM (multi-level marketing). That being said, it might just be just another MLM instead of a pyramid scheme and you could be misunderstanding the concept in the first place. MLM is legal and quite successful in the past. Pyramid schemes are mostly scams though some didn't start as scams. The questions you should ask when determining if something is MLM or a pyramid scheme are the following: 1) How do you get the return on investment? 2) How does you get income? 3) Do you get a stable income every month? 4) When can you expect your first income? For the first question, your return on investment is proportional to the amount of investment you put in, with your own sales effort ensuring steady income if it's the standard MLM. If your return on investment is guaranteed depending on how many people sign up as your downline, that's a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes may also involve people selling products, but the selling products part is secondary compared to the income you get from your downlines signing up. For the second question, legitimate MLMs provide income based on your actual sales of products, not on how many people sign up for your network. In a pyramid scheme, the more people sign up as your downline, the more money you get because your income is derived from their joining (and sometimes monthly) fees. For the third question, as long as you sell products (which you usually get at a discount if you sign up), you will continue to make money under the standard MLM. Under a pyramid scheme, you will get income only when people sign up under you and that's why you want to keep signing up people because a portion of their signing up fee goes to you and your upline. In some pyramid schemes, you still get money monthly even if you or your downline don't sign up anyone as they charge a monthly fee, which means that the more downline you have, the more money you make monthly. For the fourth question, under MLM, you make income only when you start selling products. Under pyramid schemes, your first income comes from your first downline. That's why your potential upline will tell you to sell your books, furniture or laptop to fund your signing fee despite it being easy for them to fund them out of their own pocket considering how much money they show you they make. It's because your potential upline don't make money until you give them money. If you are their first downline, the cheques and the pictures of them posing beside luxury cars and whatnots are complete fakes. That being said, MLM can benefit anyone regardless of whichever tier they're on. The only issues sometimes are in what benefits each tier gets. In a pyramid scheme, everyone on top can become millionaires but everyone at the bottom have to work like slaves just to get a tiny piece of the pie, like 0.0001% of their downline fees. It's even worse in pyramid schemes where you have to pay monthly because you as the bottom will be supporting everyone up your line while they don't have to do anything but collect money every month. In essense, MLM is created to benefit everyone, maybe not equally, but everyone can make a living from it. Under pyramid schemes, your wealth is made on lies and scams, if you even get to the point where you make wealth in the first place.
Your father clearly has too much time on his hands. He should get a job or find something else that's productive.
Not sure if @Chize is actually able to make that kind of profitability analysis ... this probably isn't about evaluating the merits of MLM. From Chize's earlier responses, sounds like a minor. So at the very least Chize should be able to do basic research via organizations (BBB, FTC) and check if this entity is legit.
Dude. You're still taking this lightly. You want people to try first and then learn from it, but when that guy said it is psychology thingy, it isn't as easy to pull out when you already in as you think. Its not easy to make people wholeheartedly convinced in something, but once they're convinced, its even harder to make them think they've been scammed. For example, you could always said "Oh to avoid depression you should do this and this", but the things is, even when you had depression, even if you know you should or shouldn't be doing this or that, you wont care, because you're at those time, psychologically damaged, and wont be able to think clearly.. Its psychology. If you let people to try first what do you think would happen? Do you think they can easily be pulled out from the scheme before they lose something? Yes yes you might be able to do so, you seems clever after all, but not all people are as clever as you. You think being scammed on internet is plain stupid, and yes i completely agrees, no doubt, completely, tremendously stupid. I can't even believe why people would even believe in such scheme. But you know what, i know that isn't the case for other people. The stupid things you encounter might be the most brilliant things other people have ever encountered. The most clever, coolest thing you ever encountered, might be the most idiotic, lamest things other people ever encountered. I really appreciate your kind and polite use of words, but please, stop asking others to try and be scammed first to learn those things, because things could escalate into something you could never imagine. Lot's of people got bankrupted because this things you, no, WE thought of stupid. Why? Because they think they can pull out when the time comes before they lose something, and so they tried to go this path. And because of bankruptcy too, suicide cases been increasing. If, because of your advice of "let your father try and learn" something as terrible as this happened, would you still be thinking "how idiotic"? And you said "make sure not to pay anything"... How? Yes sure i, you, and we all here are well educated in this things, and so the first things we would all be agree would be to not put out a single cent. But others aren't like us, even if we try to strongly advice or reprimand them, they would just use their money in secret. Why? Because they're convinced in those scheme, because thats how psychology works in the first place, it is based on belief. Even if we took all their money, they might just go to some loan shark and got the money they won't even get back. And so i would strongly go against the idea of letting his/her father to even try and learn the hard way. Yes you are clever but other people might not so, they might not get out of this unscathed.
Honestly, I'm not sure I could do their advices that involves lawyers, parental blocking or jail etc. As much as I wanna find another adult to help me convince dad to not trust or do it. Unfortunately, it's just the 2 of us in the house, so he has all the authority currently. Even if I try to say something to him, it's most of the time, considered a joke because I'm younger & they think I don't know more than what they know. As for these, I'm not a 100% clear on all details because we got cut off in the middle of the conversation. But what he told me is - need to recruit new members - has to pay a fee upon joining (I don't know how much they're asking as we got cut off) - after joining & paying the fee, he has to sell some products they're advertising (Idk the product as we didn't reach this specific topic as well) Unfortunately I didn't saw the ad itself since we were just verbally talking, he just told me a handful of details about it Which were I said above. That's all I got from our earlier conversation Edit: the products he's supposed to sell has to be paid by his own money first before he could sell it
Oh heyy.. its the same pattern as when my eldest brother got scammed. How about your teachers? Could you ask helps from the teacher you're close to advice your dad?
Ok, sounds like a typical MLM so far. If you can figure out the company name / products they are selling, then you might be able to check online if they are legit. https://www.bbb.org/ https://www.bbb.org/scamtracker/us https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0065-multilevel-marketing http://mlmlegal.com/MLMBlog/check-see-mlm-company-legal/ This still goes back to the initial points ... Do your research first, maybe tell your father that you want to help (rather than immediately being negative about the company). If you're certain that it's a scam (or there are dubious points about the company) then present your findings to your father or through an adult with authority. I can't tell you what's the best route since we don't know your family situation. Maybe it's better to bring it up to your father first, and if you've exhausted that avenue, then try looking for another adult (teacher, etc). This company could actually be legit, but nobody on this forum is qualified to tell you that. FYI I'm NOT suggesting you use the services of mlmlegal.com, just linking that blog since it gave good advice on how to do your research. Tried looking to see if there's a published list of MLM scam companies, but besides BBB.org I can't pull up anything besides the list from mlmlegal.com (which I'm not 100% comfortable recommending). https://www.mlmlegal.com/profiles/index.html Don't have too much time to keep looking, but if anyone else spots a legit site let us know.
That's what I feel right now..so I ignore my father and let things happen cause he never listen anyway.. he lost a lot of money and now we suffer sometimes I didn't eat a whole day but he still continue his activity..*hit the forehead*
BTW, in case your dad doesn't listen to anyone, show him this video. MLM is not always a pyramid scheme, but in some cases, their dastardly methods are pretty much the same. Also, even legitimate MLMs have their own issues despite being legal.
Ugh ... kinda disappointed Madeleine Albright is with HerbaLife. https://nypost.com/2014/04/17/ex-secretary-of-state-albright-sweats-herbalife-ties/ Met her before and a loved one was a big supporter of her. She did some great things. Guess even the best and brightest can make mistakes. Well, I guess if Oprah can support pseudo-science and Dr. Oz ...
Yeah, Ai-chan was shocked when Ai-chan found out too. Ai-chan actually respected her when she was still in office. Ai-chan guessed government pensions weren't enough for her.
Tried to look if Madeleine ever renounced her affiliation with HerbaLife. Doesn't seem like it =/ Only that Bill Ackman gave up shorting against this company. https://www.wsj.com/articles/bill-a...in-five-year-war-against-herbalife-1519854456 I guess that's the insidiousness of MLM, that their C2C (consumer-to-consumer) marketing emphasis naturally starts with a closer circle of friends/family. It's even harder to be objective / a good judge of character when the one selling you the scheme is a trusted friend/family member. To be fair, I can't declare that all MLM products are necessarily bad. Maybe those HerbaLife shakes actually worked for Madeleine Albright but the method of sale is definitely inappropriate and highly subject to abuse.
I... had another small talk with him about it. I looked around for a few minutes about it Idk if I'm allowed to say the company name here. But I think the person he's talking to is actually a scammer him/herself because some of the information my dad got seems wrong..? Or maybe it's just I'm missing some information since it was just a quick peek. But basically the product is soap, which isn't registered to the government so it's quite questionable wether is safe or not. I saw plenty of ads saying it's legit blah blah blah along the way. A number of post saying it's a scam, that it doesn't have legal papers in the government. Old members of the company also said that the amount of profit you'll get from it, heavily rely on the number of members you could recruit & not about the products itself
Another thing Apparently it's not him who'll invest in it. He wants me, to use the money my mom gave me (for all sorts of school fees) to invest in it
I'm sorry to hear. Looks like you now have more concrete information, good job. I'd stick with BBB and FTC to see if there were official complaints against the company. Ads and posts (Reddit, etc) are unverified sources. That said, there is no smoke without a fire. Just because a company wasn't officially cited/sued doesn't make it clean if rumors are popping out. You mentioned your mom and her funds. Would it be possible to speak to her about this? If she's no longer around, I'd suggest you speak to a school counselor if there are no other authoritative adults (grandparents, extended relatives, etc) around. The school might refer you to better channels for help or step-in directly since it's now involving school fees. I'm not familiar with how the US school system works (esp primary/secondary) since I only did college here. If anyone else is more familiar with how school counseling works, please feel free to comment. I'm also not sure if you have legal rights to the funds you mentioned (a trust entity, endowment, etc under your name), or whether you need to give permission to your father to release those funds for the investment. But either way, it might be worthwhile escalating the issue to other adults that have your interests in mind. Or at least to get their opinions before signing off on anything. Have to put out a disclaimer that I'm not a legal/investment professional and I cannot dispense legal/investment advice.
Agreed with this. Try to consult your school first. And since your dad is asking you to use your money (given by your mom), it must means that he can't just use it without your permission. If that is indeed the case, please don't ever sign any documents given to you as of right now, and please tell your dad your disagreement of using your mom's fund in this since it'll affect your study