Request What Services Do Original Web fiction Authors Need to Succeed

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by Wujigege, Sep 25, 2019.

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  1. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    It is easy to leave negative reviews but I want us to do something else this time: offer solutions and suggestions instead of criticism.

    Let us say you had a novel that you enjoyed that an obvious flaw, what tools do you think should be available to the author to fix say editing problems or plotholes?

    @jacobpaige @lnv @userunfriendly @Momoyuki @Kuro_0ni
     
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  2. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

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    luck?

    Really my guess would be needing some tool or database that they can put the entire plot and character information into, which can provide a quick simplified or detailed view of things like the timeline, major character traits, item abilities, etc. as desired.

    I think allot of issues come from organizational issues, and properly using (or making) tools to help with that would make a large difference.

    That and a trusted proofreaer who can read the stuff before it is posted to try and spot any glaring errors.
     
  3. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    You explained all the things an Editor does lol
     
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  4. ElefantVerd

    ElefantVerd It's not me, and it's not you.

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    Need plot. Can write a short story about people meeting here or doing this and that, but that's all. Why they are meeting, what they do after, and how it makes a history... no idea.
     
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  5. LowerTierDragon

    LowerTierDragon Well-Known Member

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    Problem is, the way web novels are generally published, what they'd need is one of those Men in Black neuralizers to flash away reader memories. Typos are a shrug thing, diligent people will report them and you can fix them and provided you're only dealing with one or two every chapter or so it won't be annoying (I dealt with cleaning up typos someone found only after literal thousands of other people had already read something; really, if you do your due diligence in having clean prose you'll be fine by most readers). It's the other stuff, and once it's read, it's hard (impossible) to make people un-read it.

    Actual story problems are difficult to deal with, particularly with us typical run-of-the-mills who fly by the seat of our pants (e.g. I literally was hitting "Publish" as soon as a chapter finished its pass in Grammarly and I copy-pasted it in, most nights). This is actually a place where having an early release Patreon could be helpful -- you get your alpha/beta readers AND you're getting paid for it, wow! -- but that's predicated on having enough of an audience and having something already good enough to hook people in for it. Not a situation most people are in.

    But if you don't have some alpha/beta reader setup, either of the Patreon sort or just the friendly inner circle kind, and if you're doing what I did and writing right up to the wire... story screw-ups tend to be issues that compounded over time. You might not recognize the trap until it's sprung up all around you, and taking time out to address that can shatter one of the most important things for a web novel writer: momentum.

    Among other things, I poured a vat of kerosene on Devourer of Destiny and set it on fire because I hated the style the most recent volume had fallen into when I was already 60k+ words into it. It was very and-then-things-happened-because-they-needed-to, much like the final seasons of Game of Thrones ended up. It didn't help matters at all that I was coming to absolutely loathe being in the story's titular character's head. There was little I could do to clean that up in the near term, though; the show had to keep going on or it had to bust, which it did by my own hand (in the long-term, I decided that before I return to that novel I will cut the current Volume Four and start it over, but that's a luxury of now having a "when I pick up my abandoned work" stance to work from). So is the fate of a lot of stuff, if not quite so spectacularly.

    TL;DR: There are no tools to fix what you're talking about, because it's a people problem and not a system problem. The real fix is doing it right the first time (hah), and second best is learning and not repeating those kinds of mistakes in the future (and note how many of the CN blockbusters didn't become such until their third or fourth novel).
     
  6. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    TL ; DR wasnt necessary and read it all.
    Thanks a bunch.
    Wont editing fix all this?
     
  7. LowerTierDragon

    LowerTierDragon Well-Known Member

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    It does, but that requires a production pipeline that is daunting and difficult to put together for someone just starting out (if you're trying to address the concern for more practiced hands, of course this is less of an issue). Picking up people just to proof an in-progress work can be futzy, having a full-fledged actual editor onboard is so much more. It also requires a more deliberate pace, and when you're worried about "are people even going to like this?", getting that all squared away early very much feels like putting a cart before the horse.

    Also, the most important thing for writing support staff isn't even necessarily how good they are, but how well they fit together with you and your story. I've heard tales of people brought in to help edit xianxia/xuanhuan-style stories in preparation for Amazon release, and while their resumes were impressive their fit with the culture was atrocious. There's a difference between "dial down the pathetic on X character" (probably some good advice had I been given it early on for a certain first arc faux protagonist) and "omg cut this entirely, it's a problematic exploitation of Y group" (which, for me, is useless garbage because the audience for X&X stories doesn't care about that stuff; they eat up massacres and lewdness and punching both up and down). Forming a rapport to avoid that kind of screw-up takes time and requires something to be there to begin with, too.

    If you are a meticulous writer with a long tail on your work, having a bona fide editor is the thing. Totally. Absolutely. Although even they can misread and misstep; it's a form of protection but it isn't absolute. Also, you can finagle it a bit by having something like a Patreon and using them as a beta audience (I never did this because (a) impostor syndrome (b) wanting that big ABORT button available that I eventually did use). Guys just starting out will have none of that, though, and you can't very well strap it to a newbie either (that would be cruel and unusual to do to would-be editors, for one). A lot of the worst stuff can and will get tempered by just writing, failing, and writing some more (and then deciding to do better or to hang up your hat and go into something less stressful like forming your own superhero squad).

    Some promising people will wash out entirely, no doubt about it, but writing isn't just about the quality of the prose or anything else. The barrier to being a writer versus an "aspiring writer" is to sit down and do actual writing; the rest is an improvement from there, but people have to take that step and then stay the course in the first place.
     
  8. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    Well, the goal of this thread is to find out what needs there are and what services I could offer to fulfill that need
    I know they are different levels of editing eg line editing, copy editing and developmental editing https://blog.bookbaby.com/2016/04/type-book-editing-need/
    A lighter editing job should work even if the cultures clash.
    Having someone to ask tough questions is a must I believe eg where are you going with this character, is it necessary?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
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  9. Defiring

    Defiring Well-Known Member

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    You need need to set an actual goal or main enemy or whatever, not something far away that everyone will forget about, but something that's constantly here, maybe something that the whole story is built around.
    If I ask someone about your novel, he should be able to make a short summary of what it's about, don't make it so convoluted that no ones knows what you're doing anymore.
    But more importantly, plan your story a bit before writing it down. Too many authors just start on a whim. Take your time, you don't have to publish the first chapter the second you're done writing it, maybe write a few chapters for yourself first.

    Then again, maybe I'm wrong, I just think that's how I'd go about it.
     
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  10. Snowbun

    Snowbun

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    Uuuuh why was I pinged here lol? :blobfearful:

    Is Wujigege a super spy? Did I mention I worked at publishing? >A>; Ok...I must have mentioned somewhere in the forum but forgot about it because I’m terrible at this.

    Anyway, I don’t have direct experience with web novels so all I can say is have a trusted editor. Yup, already mentioned above.
    As for the translation and adaptation, likewise, a person who is active in the circle (e.g. samurai manga >>> person who knows kendo edits) definitely adds more flavor into the story. In that case even if they couldn’t change the dialogue much and have other constraints such as the size of the speech bubble, the side notes for Japanese history and overall understanding of the author’s mindset (being a super fan of the work) added to a certain published material made it really enjoyable.

    I really don’t have much input for original works because the few novels translated by company X in the time I was there where all single volumes or finished works, simply because they REALLY wanted to avoid risk as much as possible. Even if a Y anime was being aired and super popular at that time, they would not negotiate the publishing rights for comics or novels unless they could be sure at how many volumes or at what point the author would stop.

    I’m just editing a WN translation now as a newbie and from the differences I could spot between that and the LN (including an extra chapter) it’s obvious that just having someone edit it is a big improvement. Less messy grammar and more plot/setting adjustments, much more thought into the characters’ feelings or personalities. Just by having read raws before, it already makes it so much easier to catch the points the author wants to foreshadow and make it so they are better incorporated into the translation.

    Anyway, also what above post says, maybe the golden rule of JP manga would work: don’t publish anything you don’t have 10+ ch. already plotted or drafted and follow a disciplined schedule. Make sure someone is always reminding you what the story is about so you don’t deviate crazily from your own setting. And take in readers’ criticism by filtering comments or polls. And unfortunately...if it goes down...cut it off mercilessly.

    Honestly just :blob_plusone::blob_plusone::blob_plusone: at what everyone has said... though irl it doesn’t work out well sometimes (people always have their petty complaints and sometimes authors are really hard to deal with).
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
  11. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    Hahaha I am just a bloodhound when it comes to spotting opportunities and seeing people's talents. I had no idea. Only one Brazilian NUFer I know is involved with publishing and published his own books. I got to learn things from him like Show and dont tell etc
    @Nume
    A community that matches authors to editors would be great. I had spoken to @lnv before
    but looking at it now, it is just too much work.. Such communities technically already exist but are too niche, buried down, do not have enough Eastern influences or you have to pay to be a member.
    I think the best option is to offer a convert webnovel to ebook service and basically have an adaptation of the web novel.
    Having a professional editor work on the novel per chapter seems too cumbersome.
    Changing media form is also better I believe eg adapting a messy webnovel into a web comic with the writer for the webcomic acting as the editor
     
  12. Snowbun

    Snowbun

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    +___+ *dead*

    I really suck at keeping my anonymity... fudge cake... :blobfearful:
    I should just use my own name... :blobsweat_2:
    *looks at user name* :blobtired:
    *bangs head in the desk*
    ...I seriously need some help...
     
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  13. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    I will just focus on adapting novels into comics and posting them on Webtoons or Webcomicsapp
    I hope to pick your brain some more in the future.
    Cheers!
     
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  14. ElefantVerd

    ElefantVerd It's not me, and it's not you.

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    As a service to new translators, I think the grammar checking is the most necessary.

    Some translators just put the original through a machine translation and post the result with minimum edit, they don't even read what they are posting or don't have the proficiency in English to see what is wrong.
     
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  15. Kuro_0ni

    Kuro_0ni Cocooned in a Life transition

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    When you have the tools to help you create a story, you should use them? They are helpful for a reason. I'm just speaking out of my failed experiences.

    I tried my hand at crafting a webnovel, and tried posting chapters at regular intervals (this was years before I began translating). But it didn't really work out. One is because I didn't really have a destination for my work, I just wrote based on genre and what seemed pretty cool to me. Obviously it was "not" as cool for other people, my view count for those things were pretty low and hardly anyone paid attention to it. So I purged that sucker from the net.

    Then I bought a bunch of self-help stuff, and how to be a better writer and a whole bunch of stuff, (Cost me roughly $500 in books). And what do you know, I improved (But only for short story stuffs). Right now I'm trying to find the happy medium for length of a story. In one of those self-help articles, they say use a 3 Act structure.

    And rather than doing chapter things, just create the entire story. You'll be able to increase the descriptions once you have a general idea of how the story started, what the conflict is and how its is resolved. Like make a summary, and build upon that summary.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
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  16. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    I have to agree. The per chapter model is simply over commercialized.
    I decided to offer the service of converting /adapting messing amateur works into edited ebooks or comics.
    Trying to fix per sentence won't work and too cost intensive
     
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  17. Twentyfithbaam

    Twentyfithbaam Well-Known Member

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    The easy way? Just research what the current trend is and use that. Its sort of like fast food though so your story won't survive the test of time.

    The hard way? Write on anything that is distinguishable from what is currently being produced, set your own trend. The people that make it in this world look around for the circumstances that they want and if they can't find them, they create them.
     
  18. Wujigege

    Wujigege *Christian*SIMP*Comedian

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    I think you meant that is distinguishable
     
  19. Twentyfithbaam

    Twentyfithbaam Well-Known Member

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    T-thank you.
     
  20. Nume

    Nume [Arcadia Blade Onee-chan][Shameless Paladin]

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    Oh, hey, people remember me!

    Well, first off: what exactly do it means to the author to succeed? Having a good writting? Being famous? Getting enough money to survive?

    The first one is easy: you get good at things by studying them and doing them. So go read books about writting, maybe get yourself iinto a creative writting course on a college or university or even a online one, there's plently of them. An write a lot, without fear of being shitty at it for a while. You will get better.

    Getting famous is harder, but depending on how much famous you put the line to be a success, it's achievable. Mostly, get your work out there, and you eventually you will hit the finish line. I have seen people doing podcasts and youtube videos as a side to their writting, especially because it can get you some ad money on the side as well. Which is nice because...

    ...the last and most hard of them is getting to live on writting. Not gonna lie, that was my dream for the longest time in my adult life. From 18 to about 29 I believed that I could break the clouds and have my place in the sun as a writter. Then I finally made the math and noticed that even being a sucessful writter in Brazil means you're living barelly above minimum wage. I mean, a guy who seels 3 thousand copies of a R$40 novel in six months is a beast, a nascent superstar in the book market. He also got to live with about R$ 2.000 a month, which is a little more than a intern at a bank makes on average. Except that the book could have take him more than six months to make, and then more than that to get from first draft to final draft to publishing. If it took a year, then he's making about R$ 1.000 a month, which is R$ 2 more than the minimum wage in Brazil. It's also R$ 200 less than the average wage of garbage collectors. And since writters don't work on the CLT (the worker protection laws of Brazil), they don't get vacations, sick days, food and transport tickets, 13th salaries (in Brazil, by law, in december you get paid two salaries instead of one), so at the end of the day the up and coming writter that is selling 50% more than the average print run of most books in Brazil (which is 2k)? He's living below the poverty line.

    And that is the sucessful guy, most books are sucessful for the publishing company if they sell 50% of their print run in six months, with a average print run of two thousand books, and a price tag of R$ 40, along with the standard 10% of the base price tag as royalties, that means R$ 4.000 in six months, or about R$ 666,66 per month, about two thirds of the minimum wage, but then there's the problems we already talk about so suddenly a average writter in Brazil makes about R$ 300, and the poverty line in Brazil is at R$ 387 of monthly income.

    This, of course, is if nothing bad happens. For example, in the last 12 months, the company which published 2 of my books didn't pay my royalties. Its not from a lack of money, since they had a sucessful crowd funding campaign for a new book that got them R$ 1,918 million. In said campaign they also sold 44 copies of my books as part of the add-ons for the pledges. They just think they can get away with not paying, and they can, because what writter living on barelly a minimum wage can afford fucking litigation costs?

    So, there's that. I don't know how you can get yourself living confortably as a writter. I don't think it can be done in my country at least. Sure, if you hit it big as an actual superstar that sells tens of thousands of books per year, then sure, but there must be like 20 guys tops country wide who can do that, if not less.
     
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