Is complex villain necessity to write good heroic story

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by Yamatohime, Sep 28, 2019.

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  1. Yamatohime

    Yamatohime Well-Known Member

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    What do you think? Is complex villain with complex backstory, understandable motivation and proper reasons necessary to write good and rich heroic story? Or simple, substitute Disney type villain would be enough.
     
  2. valzione

    valzione Well-Known Member

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    No, ultimately stories about heroes are meant to about the hero. You don't need to fight a villain to death to be a hero, but rather do things for greater good (usually beating a villain falls here).

    That said, doing a flat villain blows your story out of it's ass if the villain is the main focus.
     
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  3. Green Apple

    Green Apple Actually I'm secretly an orange.

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    Depends on what the story is about.
    Villain can exist only to create situations for a main character to resolve (for a comedy for example)
    Villain also can be a complex character and the reason he is a villain can be that his motivation and reasoning is different from the hero's and so they are in direct confrontation because of that
     
  4. L0pez

    L0pez Well-Known Member

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    Simple greed as motivation for the villain usually works for me better than poorly executed "complex villain with complex reasons that lead him this path". Since if executed poorly, villain ends up just edgy.

    But yeah, if it's written good, then hell yeah for a complex villain.

    @Edit And simple reasons to be villainly don't have to mean he can't be still likable.
     
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  5. araarq

    araarq Well-Known Member

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    Depends on the story. Sometimes, a complex villain is good, other times a simple one is. I think the instances that need a complex villain are in cases where the story focuses in exploring deep concepts, like the morality of humans, what is right or wrong, etc.
    The times i feel that villains can be simplistic is when the goal of the story is to make the hero triumph. The villain needs to be something the hero must overcome, and it doesn’t matter if the villain are complex, only that we need to root for the hero.
     
  6. Zeusomega

    Zeusomega M.D of Olympus Pvt Ltd. Seeking [Boltzmann brain]

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    Well if you give more details from both the protagonist and antagonist, readers will be more attached, then if it was only from the perspective of the hero.

    Cause of simple logic

    Every action has a reason behind it.

    Even cruel and evil deeds.

    If you could make the audience understand how the antagonist changed to evil and how the world he sees differs from how our hero sees then it is very thought provoking and gets the readers more attached to the story.
     
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  7. whitespade

    whitespade Well-Known Member

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    No I hate it when author seems to focus on the villain more than the hero. It seems like the hero is just a foil to the villain. Just write a story with villain protagonist...
     
  8. Zaroz

    Zaroz Existential Lurker Demonic Calamity

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    I really depends on how you want to write the plot. If you want an action-packed battle story, where fights make up the majority of the plot, then a complex villain isn't necessary; however, if you want to have a story with a plot that delves into the subtle aspects of the human (or otherwise) psyche, then it would be better to make, not only the villain, but many of the characters have multifaceted personalities.

    As an example compare Fullmetal Alchemist manga VS Kuro no Shoukanshi manga. In FMA, all of the battles serve a purpose in the secret plan of "Father" vs in KnS, so far, it's a narcissistic psycho and a scheming glasses bastard.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
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  9. Ratatoskr

    Ratatoskr [Aruruu's proud dad] [The False Gentleman]

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    Nothing overly complex. Revenge based or god complex is enough. If i want to read something that poked issues questioning human morality, i would just read the newspaper.
    Thats why sometimes, a story just need a typical arrogant privileged young master villain with great backing. Easier and faster to digest.
     
  10. The Hamster Overlord

    The Hamster Overlord Mad scientist/Revered wizard/Alleged antichrist

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    No. If its a heroic story, it should have a strong differentiation between the good and the bad. Not convinient to have the readers sympathise with the villain
     
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  11. The Hamster Overlord

    The Hamster Overlord Mad scientist/Revered wizard/Alleged antichrist

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    Besides, there were good Disney Villains, I think. Maybe.
     
  12. mukkaar

    mukkaar Well-Known Member

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    Good villain always makes better story, but it's in no way necessary. You can make good story even if villain isn't that complex, but you can make even better story with good villain. But all key characters need to be well written if story wants to be any good. If ´villain is one, it needs to be good also.
     
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  13. Hacalyhd

    Hacalyhd Well-Known Member

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    Highly depends on how often the villain shows up in the story.
    If the villain just does his thing and the heroes try to stop him (but are too weak, slow, far away) to be noticed, then writing a "flat" (but properly motivated) villain is fine.
    If the villain appears every other episode like a TV show antagonist, just sticking an "evil" sign on him becomes boring rather quickly.

    A flat villain is like a charging bull. Failing to defeat it once or twice is fine, but if your heroes still haven't figured out that they should get out of the way and just let him run into a wall by the tenth time they fight him, then the problem is that your heroes are just stupid and only survived thanks to plot armor.
    Such a villain is good for the occasional encounter (especially on plains where no walls are around), but not fit to be the BBEG.
     
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  14. Warlock Of The Void

    Warlock Of The Void Well-Known Member

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    Like everyone else has said , depends on the story and how u want to present it. A good villain isn't the only thing needed for a good story , proper characters and personality is needed as well . If u have a flat hero and a great villain , the story becomes more of a spoof and gets old quickly. While having a good villain is nice ( as it would usually be there with proper character building and world building ) , it isn't necessarily needed. Sometimes the hero might not even need a villain perse but a problem to solve , and it can still be a great story. The purpose of making complex villains was never to make the story better perse but make people relate to them and increase the experience, having them isn't necessary but if done well it can certainly be in ur favour
     
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  15. ToastedRossi

    ToastedRossi Well-Known Member

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    Not in the slightest. Different kinds of stories demand different kinds of characters to inhabit them. A lot of times, having a simple villain with flat characteristics is entirely appropriate. And other times putting more complexity into the villain can distract from the story's themes or otherwise impede what it's about. That said, having more developed villains is generally the better way to go, but being generally a good idea is a farcry from being a necessity.

    I feel that this isn't true either. Plenty of stories either aren't about the heroes (even if they have any heroes at all) or have other things going for them.
     
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  16. Feng Tian

    Feng Tian Well-Known Member

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    Lets put it like this: The greatest fictional work of all time had an incredibly flat villain: Melkor. In fact for the vast majority of the work they are already in trouble just facing his arch angel. Yes, thats Sauron from Lotr.

    On the other hand Thanos was fairly deep. As deep as he had to be. I'd almost go out of my way to call him the perfect villain. Is the avengers better than Lotr? Personal bias says fuck no.

    On the other hand a relatable villain never hurts your story. Adding quality is generaly a good thing to do.
     
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  17. Yamatohime

    Yamatohime Well-Known Member

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    So flat fairy tale heroes could fight the same flat fairy tale villains. On the other hand, more complex heroes would require complex problems to solve or complex villain to deal with?
     
  18. lighterxx

    lighterxx Hoshi stan before a human °^°)

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    There is a saying, that author writes either villain or second lead for the audience. Character will focus on the ideal, yet it will be the complexity that steals emotions.

    Thats why, in a way, while authors dislike their villains alot, they are liked by the fans because of the story material they can bring out. They are the imperfection, and only with them being complex story can be unpredictable and exciting

    eg. Draco Malfoy from Harry Potter, literally as a character Draco is FAR more popular than Harry among the fans
     
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  19. Defiring

    Defiring Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes, you don't even need a villain. You can remove him altogether or make him an invisible threat and the story can work just as well if you know what you're doing. Remember Sher Khan in Mowgli? We barely ever saw him in the movie, yet he carried the whole story.
     
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  20. Yamatohime

    Yamatohime Well-Known Member

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    I kind of didn't like movie since the main theme of the book itself was weakly presented. The original never depicted Sher Khan as villain, just another force of nature.
     
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