Mafia [Mafia] FM #33-2 Revenge of the Vengeful - MAFIA VICTORY

Probably cause of these 2 posts

Ginger and Enigma pressured her using these 2 posts

 

It's okay~ Don't feel bad~

 

I voted her as a placeholder I was a little suspicious of her at the start of the day with how she was so ready to try and form a wagon onto Fossil. Then the very next day Alice was already onto creating a second wagon on Blitz she really didn't seem to have any care to her own safety from getting hit by a return hit from Blitz or even from Fossil really. This raised my suspicion and the only similarly person was Evil_Ginger who I had basically agreed with yesterday and who no one was voting for at the time I believe? To get the confirmed kill I kept it on Alice rather then changing it over to Ginger, came back only after the day had ended after my last post before day end cause I had been busyish so I did miss quite a bit of D2.

 

I love ToS, but man can it be infuriating sometimes I literally lost a game because the mediums gf was ths sk before and they was skyping..........

Or the time mayor was already killed yet they let the gf live because they claimed mayor...... Mayor is a unique role people!!!!!!

 

So that did amount to something, yay~

I honestly can't believe this happened, but hooray! \(^^)/

Same, it feels like pure paranoia~

I gave up when everyone mysteriously put me on the top of their suspect list for apparently no reason too...

Good job down there~

I honestly don't understand how that was a scum move? I'd say the exact same as town... I had no suspicions, so for me nobody was suspicious. Which included you.

It's like... Ginger was inferring I thought you were suspicions, but I had no suspicions on anybody, so that's just what I said.

All Enigma posted seemed like pretty BS to me in all honesty... I'd act the exact same while being town... >.>

If anything, the part that we discussed and you started throwing some technical mafia term at me I felt like... "Oh, he is right that I'm trying to vote for Blitz in order to make him less suspicious indeed... This might have backfired, oh well."

That's what I don't understand, just what is scummy about those 2 posts?

In the first post I'm trying to promote discussion and giving a reason that made sense on who I'd kill on a revenge shot. (noting that I did not vote for him at the time, because well, I had no solid reason to vote for him)

And the 2nd post is just me saying the obvious? Someone start jestering, you lynch them on the spot. Don't let scum players hide under the cover of being jesters or they'll win by jestering.
Rather than being scum, I was baffled by how people didn't instantly lynch Fossil the moment he started jestering, you should not allow someone to live if they are jestering. It made 0 sense to me.

I don't get it? I didn't try to form a wagon on Fossil until he said he wanted to die... At this point I would tunnel him until the end of the game, because I will always vote anyone that says they want to die, unless they're 100% guaranteed to be town. (like, if someone claimed Chen and said they already investigated the person saying they want to die)

And trying to create a wagon on Blitz? All I said was that he was being too inactive and I would lynch him if he didn't talk... Which was my way of trying to clear suspicions on his head a bit, since people would look back on it and say... "Oh, Alice was Mafia and she tried lynching Blitz, so Blitz must be Town." Or at least that's what I hoped that would happen, but I knew this was not by any means a guaranteed thing to happen.

Still, I definitely did not try making a wagon on him... Or rather, I didn't even vote for him, my vote stayed on Enigma the whole phase.

It really felt like my only slips in the whole game were in the convo with Ginger, yet everyone had me on the top of their suspects list even before that... I have no idea what happened... IMHO the most solid reason on all this was LN's reason to vote me... Which is well, meta.

Like, I dunno, I really can't see where I acted scummy this game...

 

another wall yay~

Really now...

"I dont suspect anyone so I'm going to get this person killed. You didnt vote Fossil to get info, no you voted him to die.

Lame justification.

This was made in response to your previous post and I was saying you were clearly going against what I had said earlier about randomly killing someone without real justification was wrong.

Happy that a town is dead. Then votes someone that I had already started feeling was townie. Yeah, I had already felt that enigma wasn't my enemy. I kept it up so I could get someone to join the wagon, but I was at work and kind of missed it until I went back later to reread stuff.

This in particular made me suspect you more deliberately. And solidified enigma more. You joining a wagon without real justification was the problem in D1 and it seems way too not-town. After all, you should have gotten enough of a read on someone to give a legitimate reason to lynch them.

A pretty good read.

This post aged well.

This was where I went back and reread everything and noticed my mistakes.

Which led to me unvoting Enigma.

God dammit me, you fucking idiot.

And I explained the wrongness of this post with this response.

It was here I realized you were worthy of being lynched.

 

That was just fluff posting... >.>

Well, I generally prefer to avoid fluff posting though. But nobody was talking much and I was kinda bored.

Uhn... I don't agree? I mean... To begin with, I didn't vote for him, I was going to hit him back in case I died because wasting the vengeful mechanic would be a waste IMO.

And again, that was early game with no solid suspicions... Best way to get some intel is through deaths. And if the person with second most votes on them dies, it means people will have to focus their eyes on someone else instead of tunneling the person that had the second most votes in the last day. It's a good way of getting people to think and look at other possible suspects if the primary suspect is dead.

Lame? Come on, really? So... If we play 10 more games and I start tunneling everyone that tries jestering in every single one of those games, will it still be lame? Because that's what I do. Someone jesters, someone dies.

It's not lame, it's just cutting an avenue of hiding away from Mafia. You can't hide under the jestering wall because I'll kill you if you jester. I do that in 100% of my games and will forever keep doing it.

But I did have a very very good justification though? Fossil was jestering, therefore he must die immediately with no questions asked. It's what I always do and what I expect everyone to always do.

You don't need to think or make reads when someone start playing as a jester, just lynch them and throw them out of the game. If they were mafia trying to hide under the cover under the guise of a jester, now they know better, and if they were a town making bad plays, now they also know better.

There is 0 reason to not lynch a jester on sight. Unless there is someone with a silly win condition of "You win if you're lynched".

Yeah, I was happy that the person I was tunneling was gone, now I could start focusing on other people instead of keep tunneling him? That's pretty good to me, it means a phase wasn't wasted focusing on Fossil with no discussion going on at all.
Like, sure, it's always happier when a Mafia dies than when a Town dies. But getting rid of a Town that gets in the way of the game's progress is also a good thing.

Fair enough on the me voting Enigma part though~

That's what I don't get, what do you mean with "without real justification"? I gave the best justification for lynching anyone in this whole game. Fossil was jestering, therefore he must die. It's pretty straightforward and is what everyone should have done to begin with. You can't simply allow a player to hide under the guise of jestering, or you'll start seeing Mafia winning because they play as jesters and you ignore your suspicions on jesters.

I had a far better justification to lynch him than I could have on anyone else through reads. (well, I'm also pretty bad at making reads, but this is this and that is that) I don't need to try making reads when there is a jester in play. We should just get rid of them and then bother with thinking after they're gone.

A horribly wrong read you mean? Like, this had absolutely nothing to do with what I was doing.

At first I wanted to get rid of Fossil if I died because I felt like this would be the most productive way of getting the game going.
Then I tunneled Fossil because he started jestering.

What of those two things aren't town? Enigma's read was all over the place and was based on nothing! >.<

I wasn't "jumping onto wagons and suspicions that people wouldn't question her too much for", I was doing the best thing for Town, which was killing a jester.

And the "even though the mafia wouldn't make themselves that obvious in a game with only two of them." part is just... Crazy? I mean, Mafia would never try to make themselves obvious, that's why you try finding scummy behavior and point it out. And when someone does something scummy, it only makes sense to go after their head.

Should I do what? "X player is doing something scummy... But we have little mafias in this game, so therefore they must be town" Because that makes absolute no sense.

Funnily enough, me and Blitz didn't use the Mafia chat at all. I felt like it would be counterproductive to scheme, it would just make it more obvious we were working together.

So it made more sense for us both to just do what we felt was right instead. At least that's how I felt. I didn't even say that much in the chat... >.>

So well, if he was waiting to drop down the hammer, I was certainly unaware of it.

And this one was just plain weird to me... Like... You said I considered Blitz was suspicious.

Then I clarified saying I just wanted them to talk, because... Well, I had no suspicions? I mean, if someone asked me "Why do you think Blitz is suspicious" what was I supposed to answer then? "Oh, I think they are suspicious because they aren't talking"... That doesn't make them suspicious, that makes them inactive. And inactives are people we get 0 reads on.

It feels like in this post you're throwing a suspicion on me with no basis? Like... How am I supposed to have suspicions on someone that isn't talking? I can't suspect someone if I can't read them, and I can't read them if they have no posts! >.<

 

.....*calmly pats all*
The game is over, folks?

 

On a side note, I really had no idea what this post meant, so I was just like...

And couldn't really reply to it.

Ah, I am calm tbh, I just don't understand where all the suspicion on me came from and am trying to understand.

I'm glad Ginger gave me his justifications on why, but they just feel so full of holes that I'm just like... "I don't get why I was suspected at all!!! >.<"

 

First off, game is over you dont have to continue trying to sound town. Most of the stuff you did did not seem townie from a towns perspective.

To be honest, the best way to get reads off of people is to act a little off anyway and gauge people's reactions. I was (not really because I meant it, but it helped in a way) rather difficult to deal with this game. I had gone the way I believed would get some good reactions. You didnt react how I thought a town would act in response. For example.

I never asked you if you thought Blitz was suspicious. I didnt have to. That was the problem. You willingly gave a null read and said they were null to you when in fact, they had made several suspicous actions before then. It was why I reiterated the fact that I meant I was suspicious of Blitz and also why I cut off the conversation. There was no more point.

 

You started it, I was merely pointing out a suspicion.

 

Part of the reason I suspected you was I mentioned random lynch figuring at least one mafia member would use that as reason to try to lynch me and you also didn't seem to be looking at other options to lynch other than me, like you was sure I was your enemy.i would have went after you with the Vengeance kill because you was the one giving me the strongest feelings of suspicion even if I was lynched instead.


I guess another reason I felt suspicous of you is you was playing too normally even though this wasn't exactly a normal mafia game.

 

Well, I know I don't, but I'm just honestly trying to understand something that made me 0 sense to me. Like... I don't care thaaaat much about getting better at Mafia because I know I'm horrible at making reads and I doubt I'll improve on that regard which is... Pretty fundamental to playing the game properly?

Still, it leaves a bad aftertaste in my mouth when I see something happening and go like... "But I didn't make any slips this time?"

Huh? That's just weird... If you act off, I'll just suspect you and try lynching you... I mean... You're acting off, so you must be scummy.

Well, I guess it still is a good way of getting reads... But it feels like a really weird way, because it paints you in a bad light I guess?

Well, you said I was implying he was, when I did no such thing, so... Isn't it common sense to clarify it? It's what I'd do whenever someone puts words in my mouth.

Ah, that's fair and makes sense... Though well, I saw nothing suspicious on their end myself... Part of it is probably because I already knew they were scum I guess, but the biggest part is probably because I'm bad at making reads in general... >.>

Uhm, that's fair... I'm just confused on how you said you meant you were suspicious of Blitz when you clearly said I was the one that implied he was suspicious... It just makes me...

Ah, that's good enough and makes sense~
At the same time, it feels like town members would be just as willing to go for you because of the random lynch thing, so... Dunno, it feels like a weird game plan? But well, glad to know at least~

... Well, I just didn't have much suspicions on anyone, so I was like... Well, Enigma for now I guess?
Rather than not looking at other options, it was more that I didn't feel like I had anything to go by on others, so if I tried going for anyone else, the only justification I could give would be... Well, gut feeling.

Part of why I went a bit for Blitz since inactivity was something I could go after... >.>

Huh? I mean... How else was I supposed to play!? xD

Like, just because we can vengeance kill, it doesn't really change the overall core mechanics of the game? We need to find scummy people and get rid of scummy people, so... We need to talk and get suspicions from the talking?

I don't get what should I do differently just because the rules changed! >.<
... Unless @Lenaia is playing that is, in this case I have a good reason to play differently! xD

 

I'm trying really hard to help and I cant seem to find the right way to say it.

Perhaps because I didn't word it out myself during the game, but.

Yeah. Blitz had some sketchy points. And to me, when you said you had a null read, that felt off. Perhaps it was just a hunch as i never said it out loud, but how come Tilgarial and Tiggerbane seemed town?

Up until the moment Tilgarial and Tiggerbane brought suspicion onto themselves that last day, everyone had almost universally town read them except each other lol.

Another thing is, how come the only ones that acted like I was suspicious (besides the last day where Blitz essentially tried to thunderdome me) were town? You never voiced out suspicions against me, instead letting me get under everyones skin and dominate the chat.

Enigma fought that. LNOnlineOtaku fought that.

You let it happen so you could try and point suspicion against me later in the game(?) Or perhaps you wanted me to get lynched instead while claiming I felt town or something to get yourself validated in some way.

I know it is hard to actually pinpoint a method of victory in Forum Mafia as ideas change at the drop of a hat, but I think it is town to point out all suspicions you have or at least direct people to suspicious behavior.

Of course, as mafia, if you say something slightly wrong, you can instantly be found out. It is hard to lie especially when we kind of know each others personality.

Like the thing with Fossil. I essentially bagged him as town that was why I, like Enigma, didnt vote him. If I did indeed get avenged, oh well. But fossil's 'chaos' is actually different than what you would think. His actions I felt were incredibly town favored.

Why? Because deep down, I felt like I would do the same. Fossil's attitude to this game was active, starting conversations, and indeed it brought out people to vote him when there were better options to lynch.

There are two key differences between knowing your allies and not knowing.

You have a lot more power with anonymity than you would think.

You acted cautiously with Blitz. You kept them in mind when making decisions. When you dont know your allies, you can make reckless decisions.

I hope my ramblings helped.

 

That's fair and makes sense! They seemed town to me because... Well, I knew they were town I guess? I didn't have anything to go by and suspect them! xD

You let it happen so you could try and point suspicion against me later in the game(?) Or perhaps you wanted me to get lynched instead while claiming I felt town or something to get yourself validated in some way.[/QUOTE]
Ah, I totally wanted to make you look suspicious, but I had nothing to go for you, so I couldn't really point out anything sketchy in your behavior.

It's like... When I was sure I'd get lynched, I was basically torn between lynching you or Enigma... You were higher on other people's list of suspects, so I kept you and lynched Enigma.

I totally wanted to get rid of you though, I just had nothing to go by on you, so I ended up letting you dominate the chat! >.<

*nod nod nod* That makes sense! I think my main problem is that I'm really bad at finding out what is suspicious and what is not... >.>

So... When everyone looks kinda blank to me, I just go for whatever obvious thing I can find! >.<

Well, it's true that his actions did make people talk, and that was why I was fine with him? Until the moment he posted he wanted to die that is. At that point I go for his head with no hold back! >.<

I just don't think it's healthy to keep someone in the game that says you should vote for them. It's too easy for a scum to do the same and get off if you get the habit of letting those things go without a death sentence.

Oh yeah, it's a lot easier to find things to suspect when you don't know who are the suspects... That makes sense~

They did! I'm getting the picture better now, thanks!

Yeah, I did keep Blitz in mind indeed, which is why I poked him on the inactivity thing... And then a few posts later someone mentioned either Tigger or LN that also were kinda inactive and I was like... "Oh... I didn't notice them at all... That was a mistake." (I only remembered this one now that you mentioned this.)

It just felt like my "slips" were things that happened once everyone was already dead suspicious of me, and I was just like... "But why did they get so suspicious in the first place!? >.<"

Thanks for taking the time to go more into it~

 

Yeah. NP.

But here is the thing about Fossil's play. That is not the normal play. Acting like a jester in a game where there are two clearly defined win conditions in a game with such numbers, acting like Fossil did on D1 was actually better than acting like a jester say D3 for example. We have a bunch if bullets and no one to shoot on D1. It is essentially saying, here is a target feel free to shoot me. I am just one of many for I am Legion

Or something.

If the numbers were lower, everyone would try to not grab suspicion in such a way. Take last game for example. Fossil was cautious and kept an eye out.

And if this were a normal game, would you really lynch a possible jester and give them the satisfaction of winning?

The mentality of "lynch me I wanna die" is definitely not a good way to play the game if this were normal. But none of us had a special role and there were enough town members that sacrificing one person D1 was a safe idea, even if Fossil's target was also a town member.

 

What Is going on with the quotation system?

 

True, it was not a big loss to lose him on day 1... Still, I feel like it's better to target people jestering anyways! >.<

And yep, totally lynching the jester! Because like... Roles that win on being lynched are pretty unlikely to be actually put in the game by the host anyways, so unless I was aware the role was there from the start, I wouldn't expect it to be there.

So... If someone is asking to die, I'll assume they're trying to make people not kill them. Either by fear of them having an actual jester role, or because they assume people would think that mafia wouldn't ask to be killed... In that case I'll be sure to kill them first! ^^)/

I think you accidentally added (or forgot to delete) a quote in the middle of your post, which ended up bugging it.

 

This is pretty much a post game discussion. Nothing weird.

 

I did not even notice this lol. The biggest question to me is why no one thought I was suspicious on day 2!