What is "space magic"?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by UnGrave, Nov 29, 2019.

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Would you find space magic useful if it only acted as a positioning function to other magic types?

  1. Why are you asking this?

    35 vote(s)
    57.4%
  2. Yeah, that would be great

    31 vote(s)
    50.8%
  3. No, I would rather invest in attack magic

    10 vote(s)
    16.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. RyuOdjin

    RyuOdjin Active Member

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    Take a piece of paper draw 2 dots at varying distance but not too close. Think like a map say one dot is on NYC and another LA. Fold paper in 2 having the dots overlap. Then STAB a pencil through it. Now you have a dimesional gate.
     
  2. Harry

    Harry Now you see me

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    You will know space magic after you capture Palkia
     
  3. Feng Tian

    Feng Tian Well-Known Member

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    Space magic, for better or for worse, is just about always one of the big 3. Aka I hate it's existence in stories because its a brutaly effective setting breaker.

    Most authors just come up with a power/spell, and then add it to a category. Like teleportation (Which can be either time or space magic). Sometimes gravity is included as well.

    I consider space magic the total of all super natural abilities which record, create or manipulate the dimensions. Since its so incredibly vague in aplication and just as dumb overpowered even in its most dumbed down forms I completely banished it from my setting.
     
  4. Viola

    Viola Studio Ghibli Fanboy Mother of Learning Fanboy

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    I find Space Magic is usually the layman term for dimensionalism magic. Example being teleportation, creation of Pocket Dimensions (expanded storage/inventories), Dimensional Travel. abusing the fabric of reality to attack or bind your foe, making the fabric of reality around them more like a quagmire, creating tears in reality and using that to attack people. when a space of where nothing exists cuts through you... that part ceases to be as well.
    Alot of fantasy throws elements of what would commonly be attributed to Time Magic in there as well without denoting it Space-Time Magic but meh, this is the general way i see it.
     
  5. palaraya

    palaraya Well-Known Member

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    Space magic can make reading articles easier.
    thequickbrownfoxjumpsoverthelazydog.
    The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
     
  6. Al93we

    Al93we Active Member

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    I'd say magic is a system that uses mana to influence the world. It is simply divided into types for convinience and to distinction. The types are defined by how and what they influence.
    You could make a fire using earth magic by making a flamable material heat up by rubbung it with earth(friction heat). But that would be a very roundabout way to do. Unless you suck at fire magic (or any other magic good to ignite something) it would be easier/more efficient to use those.
    So space magic is magic that manipluates/alters the concept of space. The stuff you can do would in case of space magic depend on the users understanding of space and his ability to create the wanted effect efficiently.
    The magic types themselves overlap in what they can do and need a understanding of basic concepts. Where you aim and how long the spell nedds to hit the target. You also need to predict the reaction/movement of the taget. But just because you know that you need to take 10 steps to reach you target doesn't mean you understand how to skip 10 steps of space with space magic.
    If you had creation magic you could 'create' a temporary connection between 2 points, but using space magic to 'trick' the distance between 2 points to 0 would likely be more mana efficient. There' also elemental magic that allows you to teleport using it as medium(teleporting to a flame).
    So basically what any type of magic is capable of depends on the user and the types are an ambiguous/abstract definition to ease use and categorise the effects/capabilities.
     
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  7. justmehere

    justmehere Well-Known Member

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    Spacemagicistheonlythingthatenablesyoutounderstandeveryliteraturethatexistintgisworldwithoutgivingyouasplittingheadache.
     
  8. jinxs2011

    jinxs2011 [Rebel Against Normality][Writer of the Unusual]

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    spoiler, this is legitimately something that can happen in my novel - well, kinda. Theoretically someone could create a portal to the areas in which the contents of a bag of holding are stored and take things out. However, due to inherent difficulty of space magic and luck being a large factor in getting the right point in space, it's not really a thing that will happen.

    It's not something I really have to say, but space magic is different everywhere you see it being used. Every author has a different take. Some are like, space magic means teleport! Portals!

    But in my mind, space magic has a lot of different applications - and thus, for balance, a lot of limitations. And teleportation actually sounds more complex than a portal to me. A portal directly connects two points in space. Simple enough, conceptually. Teleportation has to like, switch a volume of space elsewhere with the volume of space that the caster inhabits, otherwise you'd be trying to put yourself into space that's already occupied, if only by air. And that's gotta be calculated carefully otherwise if the volume is too small, not all of you could be teleported etc...

    And what about if you put something half in a portal? It looks separate, but the object is still actually entirely whole because the two points in space are connected. But if you then cancelled the portal... Wouldn't that slice the object in two? And the only thing that I can see this not working on is something so dense that it warps the spacetime continuum around it, like a black hole. Hence why space magic has to be insanely difficult, otherwise everyone would be flinging around cut-through-everything magic.

    Anyway, outside of those applications, I see space magic as not only being able to manipulate space, but measure it. You can use space magic to find the distance between two points in space, the area between three points in space and the volume between more. But thinking of it, volume becomes more complex. Three points, it's always a triangle. Simple. Four or more? You have to carefully define which points have 'edges' going to other points to correctly define the volume you're measuring.
     
  9. Master

    Master [Old Pervert] [Grandmaster]

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    imagine this, someone made up space magic so they didn’t need to interact with people

    sounds about japanese neet
     
  10. Kurotsubaki

    Kurotsubaki Reincarnation of the Seven Deadly Sins

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    If someone asked you to imagine a 3D object, i doubt the first thing in your mind is a sphere.
    Planets and stars become spherical is because the massive gravitational pull toward the center plus centrifugal/centripetal from orbiting. Sphere is just the closest thing that a massive celestial bodies and smallest atom/subatomic entities can be projected into.
    Also, basic shape and common shape is different.
     
  11. lnv

    lnv ✪ Well-Known Hypocrite

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    Gravity is space.

    But try this exercise, imagine a square or cubic rift in space.

    And I can most definitely demonstrate that a cube is much harder to visualize then a ball. Imagine a cube that has 5 inch on all sides. Can you tell me the distance from any point to any point in that cube? Effectively, you may draw a cube but you dont have full grasp of the cube. In comparison, balls are easier to work with.

    And to prove it, we have spells like fireball and waterball. No one throws a firecube or watercube.
     
  12. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    If you're studying physics, or "space" or something like that, you think of spheres, but when you're thinking about math, or quantifying "space" in a location, distance, and such, your first thoughts are about x, y, and z axis of a cube. Firecube is usually just called a Fire Cage/Box, by the way, evolution on the elemental 'Wall' series of spells.

    Edit: On second thought, only the lightning one is a cage, usually, Lightning Cage, because you can see through the bars; Fire is usually a Flame Prison, and Water a Cell.
     
  13. Kadmos1

    Kadmos1 Well-Known Member

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    Space magic is being able to get to the first place in the bathroom lines at an amusement or theme park.
     
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  14. Lazriser

    Lazriser Well-Known Member

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    What do you see? I see space configured in formations observed and comprehended in common tongues. Now, what is space? What is magic? Space is magic, naturally so. It could be explained, but could it's origins be understood so simply by the mundane? Nay, the universe is no harlot. She is a keeper of secrets, and we must earnestly learn her deepest scores. Layers and layers of her clothing, we shall unravel it completely, until she is hidden no more. Space to her, is a mystery of pertaining to the secrecy. What is this secrecy? It is invisible, yet it exists. We are secrets known to exist? Formally so, in the minds of their keepers. After that, it shall be written, carved, engraved, burned, or even told outside the mind. The mind is space, O seeker. Space is horrifyingly endlessly vast, and for it to be observed in all levels, you either required a level higher than it, or so to say, let time ebb and flow space in ways we can observe.

    LET THERE BE LIGHT
    TEL ERETH EB THGIL
    THGIL EB ERETH TEL

    The keeper of truth failed to stop the seeker from seeing truth. In that instant, the seeker divulged the secrets laid hidden in truth defenselessly on his mind. The mind was indeed endlessly vast, but the seeker's mind was not infinite. It was incapable of processing the overflowing tides of information, much less completely store them for safekeeping. The truth was too great; incomparably grand in all manner and form. The seeker after seeing truth was blasted away from the suppressing force gushing out from the keeper's tablet. The tablet's ancient symbols formed a language that attributed to the formation of all creation, particularly space and time. Space was the formation of truth as time was observation of truth. The seeker could not stand against the infinite multitudes of truth washing away all his memories into a new slate. Absolutely foolish, as only those who possess a strong soul were able to contain a fragment of their own truth. This truth was terrifying, for it forced the seeker to observe a time far too long for his mind to keep itself intact. Shattering the space in his mind to an endless void, and halting time to a complete still as nothing was left to be observed. The seeker's soul faded to nothingness as his consciousness too, into eternal darkness. The keeper of truth could only sigh away in regret, as for the seeker had returned to the void alongside with body and soul.

    TLDR
    Space is shape and time is form. Space is like an ocean and time are the waves, pressure, and clarity of an ocean. The deeper you swim under the ocean, the less time is known until is becomes unknown, as the pressure increases from endurable to impossible, alongside the clarity becoming clouded to darkness. You can also interpret space as darkness and time as light. Information is kept secret in the darkness, but with light which is time, we can transform it into different dimensions tangible or not.

    Look at those words I typed into a box. How many combinations are possible with those words in that alignment? Coordination is only one aspect of space-magic. It is more so capable of manipulating existence to it's fundamental level - reality. Rather than space as air, think of space as a mirror. It reflects truth, but truth as light with shadows have varying degrees of shades. Each shade a underlying truth or overlapping truth until one absolute truth remains. Darkness, hence, space as with light, space-time. Thus, the universe we observe and exist in becomes a reality we interact with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  15. Kurotsubaki

    Kurotsubaki Reincarnation of the Seven Deadly Sins

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    As far as i know, gravity is a universal force generated by molecules depending on their mass as in universal gravity law. But if maybe that's actually caused by entity bending the space, i'm not sure as i haven't read any research about this.

    Imagining an object and a designated space is different. To conjure, what you do is imagining an object shape. But to designate space and manipulate it, it's easier in a cube shape. Try imagine a designated point in a sphere, it's harder than cube where you can calculate how far it is from each point and giving you a more accurate result
     
  16. Daitengu

    Daitengu Well-Known Member

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    What is space magic? First you have to ask, "What is space?"

    Newton had a very workable idea as just a container that didn't do anything, and it's exactly how most people think of it. Then Einstein observed light acting weird based on speed and the observer's perspective, forcing space to merge with time as spacetime, and gravity bends space based on mass of an object. Then the Higgs Bosin was found, and gravity changed to a quantum field in space, much like electromagnetism has a field. So what is space? fucked if anyone actually know and is still debated today. The main sciences are basically just describing what is in space. And it's even worse for time, where most just consider it a primal force of the universe everywhere marching in one direction. Which makes space and time a requirement to exist thus spacetime.

    In novels that I've read space time gets glossed over and with a wave of magic and/or Gods just ignore our reality, and creating a universe with nice an simple Newtonian understanding of space. Here's some problems I have with space magic.
    1. A portal from location A to location B is a constantly moving wormhole through space. If it was set to have absolute space coordinates, it would be off planet faster than the caster can say 'oops'. And if it has relative coordinates, it would cost far more energy to keep in place than feasible because it moves through spacetime. But nobody brings this up, and instead just wave their hand and say 'magic'. Like somehow a portal is easier to cast than an atomic explosion spell. When even an atomic explosion doesn't bend space at all.
    2. Pocket dimensions. The creation? easily the cheapest part. Accessing it? most expensive part, as you have to teleport or make a portal to access it. You're literally warping space to connect to a different pocket of space and temporarily sewing that connection together to gain access to that pocket dimension. And what happens if you make a portal too strong? Wouldn't the pocket space just get pulled out into regular space and spit everything out explosively when the portal closes?
    3. Inventories or pocket space with no time. If there's no time, you can't interact with anything in it. Any force or object trying to enter a timeless dimension would freeze/collide on the boundary and not enter it. But hey... 'magic'. Sounds like a great shield. oh wait #2.

    Remember how expensive summoning a hero is in most stories. Usually a national event and expensive yeah? It's the same exact principles as a bag of holding or player inventory. What's the difference? I mean the hero in another universe, the items in the bag/inventory are also in another universe. An artificial one to be sure, but as the distance increases from the point of creation to to the motion of the planet, it's orbit around a sun or three, the suns' orbit around the galactic plane, the galaxy's movement, and ultimate expansion of the universe, the cost of using it goes up to basically summoning a hero very quickly. So either spacial distance and cost are really just imagined, or it's a plot hole from people who know shit about physics and spacetime.

    To me classic space magic is expensive and unusable except when high energy requirements are met. And then it's still going to be quite thunderous to suddenly appear/disappear somewhere as air gets displaced. Oh wait, air displacement gets ignored, because magic. Space magic is limited to warping of space by a single user at a constant cost based on how much it is warped. A basic bottomless bag is usable, but would suck up mana to constantly work, and it'd suck up more as the warp to create a bigger warped space increases. As is quick travel by warping forward space to be closer while hind space is farther, ala star trek warp. But you're really going to pizza anything in front of you, and depending on how fast you move, will kill the user without some magic barrier which needs to be stronger as a function of speed traveled.


    Would you find space magic useful if it only acted as a positioning function to other magic types?

    Only for long distance artillery. Anything else, and why not just point and shoot? Who needs a position when you have a vector? I mean you can warp space and use it as a telescope, but why not just use a telescope? Same in this case. With the proper spotters/prep, and some trig, you can just math out the vector to launch spells and hit targets. Or, just do what the military does with mortar and artillery. Do the math on angle to distance in advance, and slap on a sticker so when a spotter gives a distance, the gunnys can just set an angle and fire. Then adjust from there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  17. Lazriser

    Lazriser Well-Known Member

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    I'm currently procrastinating, but void, let's discourse my young force knight. I'm probably spewing bullshit on you, but be reminded I'm a little serious here.

    Dimension spells aren't that exhausting with the supply of magic in those stories. There are two types of portals in those stories, the active and passive portals. From what I've read so far, the active type uses your logic for dimensional traveling, meaning it requires a certain amount of energy, which could be anything but commonly as magic to trigger the spell formation. The passive type uses spell formations to activate a constant dimensional traveling to relative coordinates in the same time-axis or another time-axis, but this is factored by the laws of magic in those stories. Some worlds have weird planar fields, while some closely resemble ours, but all these worlds have a force field of energy which acts as a barrier against foreign elements or energy from other dimensions. Your logic is plausible, if we use this as a our basis as to why dimensional spells are overly demanding from the caster or should we say, the planet itself or source of power in that dimension or world. As you said, magic circumvents around the obstacle of energy conversion and laws of physics in a fantasy world. But, then again, it's a fantasy world. Some write for fun, others for money, as the rest for reasons rarely like yours, or just trolling.
    As I said, there are force fields which somehow stabilize the force generating from the portal. But, if you have read some fictions, there are dimension spells or artifacts that do what you say they do. Again, it's either a mistake in the author's magic system, or the magic system is too vague to be understood, or there is no magic system at all and is something completely different. Science fiction stories tend to have basis, or should I say, a leap of logic to explain why such technology is possible and practical in certain situations or in the civilization.
    Rather than timeless dimension, it should be more of having the pocket dimension's properties to freeze material aging. Again, force fields but inverse, though we can also use the observer theory to handle the paradox. There is actual observation in those pocket dimensions, unless the objects are identified separately within the dimension itself, but there is a law enabling such interference, when and when only the caster or a being of higher dimension could easily interact with the laws pertaining to that dimension. That is to say, the protagonist, or the living being inside that pocket dimension can generate enough force to counter-balance the freezing properties inside that said timeless dimension. Time is relative and not absolute, so it should be possible in those circumstances.
    I already replied to this scenario.
    Very likely this as well, but I already mentioned this in my replies.
    Same reply I have above, for the cost and warping.
    This is not part of the argument, just me wondering why the need for offensive use of space-magic? Why can't it be for a more conventional use of warping items or oneself to different places?
     
  18. Daitengu

    Daitengu Well-Known Member

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    I know, and it's very annoying. Pretty much everything you've said is why I have a hard time with space magic being present in stories. Scientists 'think' making a wormhole would require being a tier 1 civilization and the power generation that means, while punching out of the universe to another requires a tier 2 and possibly a tier 3 civilization. T1 civ = harvesting 100% of the energy from the sun. a T2 civ requires harvesting the energies of a galaxy including black holes. But having enough nukes to kill off everything on a planet? We can do that right now.

    Scaling that kind of energy requirement to most magic systems where anyone can throw a fireball, but nukes are rare, and that just makes most things space magic related too power hungry to do.

    Space magic gates, formations, force fields, time dilation, all those things require vastly more energy than most stories care to think about. A flying castle would be cheaper on mana upkeep than a bag of holding. Which was my point, and your point was to just point out these stories do these things. ie I say, "This kettle leaks!" While you say, "it's suppose to because it was designed that way!"

    It's the same problem I have with many enchant systems. Example: D&D you can craft a flaming sword with an enchant to flare up and deal fire damage on top of slashing damage. No mp cost form the user, no magic crystal cost, just the mp on enchant, and wee fire stick! Yes it's a way to give none magic users a way to do elemental damage, but not a realistic one.

    is there any other response to be had to this question? Would you find space magic useful if it only acted as a positioning function to other magic types?

    "only acted as a positioning function to other magic types" Kinda important. There no need for it in other magic types. Divination don't need it. With some math, as long as spells follow gravity, you don't need it for any other schools of magic either. It's basically using an impact driver to tighten screws on eyeglasses.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  19. asriu

    asriu fu~ fu~ fu~

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    @Daitengu
    while I agree with problem of space definition I still think tier concept hmmm I forget what system name still weird cuz most of it based on harvesting energy rather than mimicking nature then create new way for creating energy hmm like creating nuclear reactor for energy that imo better than just harvesting raw~ nature sadly way more efficient than current science just look at photosynthesis or some technology that inspired from nature

    on that topic magic itself making other law which may or largely different with physical law which our current science studying it
    create fire from spell which mostly involve sound and some case explained involve imagination.... do magic have voice recognition system? who create it? how it work?
    mana.... da heck is that thing? why magician have it while common cat have none? can we convert how much 1 mana into joule or something? such as watt or duckpower
    since magic law is weird enuf cuz we can't really measure it with current science aka physical law hence it is okay to say
    It is MAGIC!
     
  20. CountryMage

    CountryMage [XSanguine8] not my blood...

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    Common cats had magic, but they let Egyptians store it, along with the bodies of their Elders, and those vaults have since been raided... no one knows where that cat magic is now.