Are other Yaoi readers get annoyed by this?

Hello @Loni4ever ~

I didn’t write the English part in response to that message tho, just that as a bilingual, calling someone Wife sounds weird to me in English but not in Chinese.

It’s a common term of endearment for a partner. I’m no expert in the LGBTQ history of China, so my best guess is that the country as a whole is still slowly adjusting to the whole LGBTQ idea.

This danmei revolution is still rather recent. LGBTQ topics might have been discussed quite openly and frequently in certain countries, but I doubt it has been as open in China. So I don’t think it’s fair to judge based on our own standards of what’s normal or to be expected. And honestly, as a cishet person I don’t think I have any right to speak on the behalf of the LGBT community, and assume what they might or might not want.

Personally, I rarely speak out on such issues. Not because I don’t feel it’s important, but because as I’ve said earlier, I don’t think it’s right for me to act as a spokesperson for the LGBT community. I’m just here to say: take a step back and consider the issue from another perspective.

Are you mad because you think it’s unfair for the characters in the novel? Are you mad because you think it’s unfair for the LGBT community? Are you mad because you’re uncomfortable with it, and why might you find it uncomfortable?

 

I would say it's rare to see any variation of yome, hanayome, tsuma, ane-san, hime, onee-san, kami-san, nyoubou being used to call someone in JP BL, but it does happen. There are subgenres in JP BL where the story revolves around marriage, and yes, they do treat the uke as the bride, and call him such too. It's pretty clearly labeled for seekers to find it and others to avoid it. For some, it's a kink, for some it's not, and that's okay.

BL is a genre mostly written by women for women. It is a space for women to explore sex and sexuality more than anything. Yes, it can be problematic with the fetishization, but at the same time, there are BL works that do transcend its genre. However, BL is a completely separate genre from LGBT lit and erotica, and it is important that people have spaces to explore their sexuality and kinks in fiction. Yes, some these ideas can bleed into real life and cause harm, but the Pandora's box is open and it's never going back into its box. The most people can do is educate.

 

Good question xD I'm not totally sure about that myself
How should I say... it's not really any of my business, I'm not them. However, when you read a story, you most often empathize with the characters while still retaining your own values and beliefs. I can't speak for neither lgbtq characters nor rl lgbtq people, and they might feel totally different about a situation they're in than I would when empathizing with them.
Well... as for why it irks me sometimes. I grew up in a western culture that's largely more aware of and opposed to misogynistic and other discriminating behaviour when compared to some Asian cultures like the Chinese one, so I naturally see things differently from people of that culture. Of course, that means I don't understand a lot of things from said Chinese culture and I might see discriminatory behaviour even where it wasn't intended or isn't really present at all. Whereas within Chinese culture, the idea of discrimination might not be a thing at all if it's so ingrained in the culture that people accept it as normal and see no problem with it. Well, who's to say which is "better" or more "right"? I know that it's a cultural thing and that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to measure one culture's creations by the standards of another culture. Still, that doesn't mean I can be emotionally removed and not empathize at all (with my own set of values and beliefs) when I'm reading a story. If I wanted to have that kind of emotional distance, I wouldn't be reading the novel xD so yeah... basically, my sentiment towards this is
"This feeling of mine and the reason why it exists might not make a whole lot of sense but ugh
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻"
XD

 

I also get annoyed. Sometimes it’s funny when they call each other “wife” regardless of their “position”. But other then that it’s kinda annoying, just call each other “husband” like people do all the time.

 

I find it wrong to see BL as a fetish. Most LGBT+ people would tell you BL, in its own strange way, allowed more acceptance for especially younger generation. In a way, novels, movies that we see, show how a LGBT+ relationship works, and i find it important to write properly therein. For example, in this novel a group of girls came to see the couple and all they thought is their sex life. I understand curiousity towards couples like this but in some cases they treat them almost like they are in zoo ( sorry for such rude remark, but really couldbt find anything similar)
That is why, especially in countries where LGBT+ is just getting known, I would like it to show real sides of the relationship, not seeing them as fetish, but seeing them as people who deserve same rights like marriage and being able to live freely.

 

Sorry about it, i will make changes for it, dont worry^^

The issue i faced is however, before westernisation of China, it DID accept gay people, did not accept females, but still.

Anyway, in old scripts, i never saw that they used such gendered affection words, at most I saw them getting quoted as lovers ( take it with grain of salt since i i c only access eng translated ones)
In a way, they were not like this in the past, emperors had their lovers made general etc to have equal standing even. I mean they did have ways to not make gendered roles for these situations, but why not now?

I hope it was clear enough rip

 

I've gotten used to the "wife" thing because I just assumed it was a matter of language and the way certain terms are used differently in other cultures sometimes. Using "she" for male characters is a bit annoying though I haven't encountered it outside of badly/unedited MTLs all that often (don't read omegaverse/mpreg so I'd imagine it might be more common there because I feel like they're basically het relationships with additional dicks thrown in) - strangely enough, I read parts of the novel you reviewed and didn't really notice it there but then again, I ditched it less than halfway through because it wasn't my cup of tea.
There is the thing with gong=male role, shou=female role that's still very common in a lot of BL and the very rigid gender roles that go along with it. That's not limited to JP or CN BL though, I still see this a lot in western fandom as well. There is an underlying issue with gender essentialism/stereotypes at play there, I guess. but yeah.. using female pronouns for the more steretopically feminine shou is weird and makes it seem like "why didn't they just write a het novel in the first place".

 

And BL has a range of stories and expressions---some wonderful and transcendent that can teach people more about acceptance, and some... not so much. It's great to encourage realistic LBGT+ depictions in BL stories, and I definitely welcome it, but it's also important to remember why women flock to BL in the first place. A lot of the responses relate to how much baggage there is for women to explore love, sex, and sexuality, and ideally BL frees them from the baggage and the judgement. I think there's room to include everything under the sun, even if it's not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay as long as people are aware what they choose to consume. People can choose to promote the things they want and drop/avoid the things they don't.

 

Such introspection is good! There’s no need to be emotionally distant from a novel, but I do think it’s important to draw a line between fiction and reality.

Empathising with the characters in a novel is important actually. I find that it’s bad writing when authors don’t get me invested in a character. At the same time, I’m always very mindful of the novel setting. Eg. I wouldn’t read an ancient novel while imposing modern moral values on the characters and vice versa, but it doesn’t mean that I’ve suddenly lost my morals. I just read novels without seeing it through a certain lens, which is both unfair for the novel and annoying for me as a reader

But what makes you think BL is fetishized? Why make the jump from ‘curiosity’ to ‘looks like they’re looking at animals in a zoo’? As someone who has recently connected with the online community without much experience prior (I barely used social media and was never in any fandom), it’s quite a culture shock to see such circular discourse on BL. I find it dangerous how people frequently throw around such buzz words without explaining what it means and why they think it’s so, it just feels like they’re trying to fan flames by getting people emotional rather than appealing to reason.

There are a lot of people calling BL a fetish and saying it’s a problem, but there sure aren’t a lot of people explaining why.

There are also a ton of danmei novels out there that really explore the different sides of a LGBT relationship. Of course, not all novels will do this, and not all readers would want to read this type of novel either. In fact, I’m pretty sure most readers aren’t interested in such types. The topic can get a little heavy sometimes.

In old scripts? May I have examples?

The term Wife as an *endearment* is modern. I assume you’re talking abt the word 老婆.

Also, when you use the term ‘equal standing’, it already implies that you don’t think ‘wife’ and ‘husband’ are on equal standing.

Which do you think is inferior?

And isn’t that already an internalised gender discrimination that could have resulted in the discomfort with the use of the term Wife?


LAST POINT:

I have never ever come across a novel where the author calls a male character SHE. This is a case of badly edited MTL, it’s not a danmei issue.

Or it could just be those rare few novels that use it. Skip it if you don’t like it.

 

You completely misunderstand me. My issue is not internalized misogyny but misgendering. I mean, if they want to get called "she", im ok with it, if they want to get called "they" its cool too, "he" too as well. But unless these are explicitly confirmed by the main person, I would never, never use or be comfortable be gender specific nicknames, same reason why I am ok with dear, love etc, but not husband, wife etc.

Our topic is BL therefore I should give example from BL as well but I felt uncomfortable in novels that described females as husbands as well.

You can clearly see the fetishization, I dont know how to explain why a fetish forms, considering people can form fetishes on almost anything possible, from foot to bugs, to even more disgusting things. Curiosity I understand and have problems with but in most Asian countries, if you were to see a gay couple you would understand what I mean by like a "zoo". I literally saw girls sitting around and watching them like creeps to be honest.

I am not trying to create some sort of public outcry etc. I am just talking about my views, hell I even liked the posts that conflicts with my view too because all I wanted to do was discuss, and ask whether this is a thing that bothers others as well.

I read it from here, my school offers reading of this for free, I am not sure if you can access but preface explains what they are writing about greatly
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v07n04_01

Edit: And I think this one too? I read these on a whim because I was bored, so im not sure about this one...
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J082v14n03_02?src=recsys

 

I'm okay with them calling eachother wifey and stuff like that~ it's cute and me and my last gf would joke around like that and call eachother hubby and stuff too. However straight up calling dudes in yaoi 'she' and 'female' is super annoying and just plain gross, it def shows lack of understanding on what they are writing about.

 

Hmm I think I get it, you want normal romance / josei type but with lgbt content more
But most of BL kinda doujinshi vibe which filled with delusion and weird and absurb than 'normal love story'
Well.. tbh I want more like no.6 or more plot than delusion too TwT), too bad not many are like that.

I think what we need is a new tag for serious BL

 

Yes, maybe SBL? LOL but anyway, its kind of drama, trajedy comedy and BL just like in international novels, where focus is on life and topics and not on their relationship and sex
Basically a more realistic story?

 

Hahaha JBL? Josei BL ?? MBL? Mature? Lol
Yes! I'm agree with you
I'm kinda tired seeing the 'shoujo' troupe
Hello I'm Y and I want to fell in love
meanwhile..
Hello I'm X and I'm gay like ???
Like... well, okay..sure??
That kind of premise usually end up yeah like that..

I think what you want is similar to mine T w T)
I want something similar like No.6 or Card Room!, MoDao is kinda good )early chap (i havent read the rest)

Make it realistic or slow romance or focusing on plot please TwT), make it natural too
Sometimes the romance plot making me drop the series..

 

Are you talking about grandmaster? I kinda liked it till the sex scene tbh

Really liked heavens official blessing tho, like minus lowkey stalking tendency it was very cute and built very well, without any specific roles, it doesn't have anything "hot" and in a way it made me like it more tbh, its from same author as modao

And YES we do want the same thing, sadly its hardcore hard (extra hard) to find rip

 

If you're looking for really serious bl, you'll be ignoring most stories with the following tags:
- modern
- entertainment industry
- rich family/aristocracy
- rebirth/quick transmigrations (50%)

That's a major issue if you read those. It's because that's the easiest to write/most common genres for cheesy romcoms. Cheesy romcoms are so easy to pick out within the first 10 chapters.

Was what I was going to say until I looked up what novel you were talking about and now I'm just curious. Where in the novel does the family refer to the MC as "she"? I looked from Ch 85 to 78 in Chinese and the only "she" were actual females like the aunt or some other person (I didn't really read the thing, just word searched). If the "wife" was in there, that's understandable since it's very Chinese to use those terms as a misogynistic power fight thing. But the "she" thing...? I'm starting to wonder if it's just some mistranslation. Unless you aren't talking about CME and I got sidetracked.

 

I was mad at write incorrectly, this one did not mention she, and only used wife etc majorly, she is used in other novels

...i should go edit it rip

 

Alright done!!! Sorry about it, at one point, around chap 80 i was starting to get pissed off, it is purely my mistake

 

Yes grandmaster~ same I really like it the early chap really deep, well thought, and realistic, also not pointing at romance too much~

The author has a nice writing I really like their work~

Ikr!! it really is hard, I need more T w T) but many of BL is dojinshi vibe

Dojinshi is good but if it is too much you crave plot too!

 

Yeah I can handle a like 100 chapter doujinshi style novel if its written well, but sure as hell I cant read a 5000 chapter one... A total nightmare...