Discussion Cultural Problems in Novels That Readers Don't Understand

tl;dr, for most of the part, but I did read this paragraph

Not sure who to address this comment to, but

Spoiler

Taken from here

 

I love it that you can just change red -> famous but you refuse to do that.

 

I forgot that the word famous existed

 

Ha, that's something I truly hate as well, you see the character thinking he wants to bone a girl, he wants to do that and that, and then he just proceed to ignore the girls next to him even if they are flirting with him and even openly wanting to do something, worse also its when there is that and MC decides to go to a brothel and something like that



Before reading i have no clue if i will be able to write a long text that can be understood since dyslexic problems but here i go


Honestly to me, "cultural" isn't an excuse most of the time, if you write a isekai, an alternative world that's not the same world, it doesn't need the same culture, the idea of enforcing your learning and use it as excuse for your work it's bland, just like I see harems that mc keep going for monogamy or whatever despite going to a world that polygamy is normal, there is no influence whatsoever different culture? There is no impact at all? Most works are nothing but templates, and even works that have a different setting will often be a template as well on most of their things aside from the setting.

Most of all if anything I dislike in the templates is how different worlds might have different cultures but there its there just for show, the protagonist isn't affected by it, isn't relevant, there is no progress, the author culture doesn't mean that its the culture in the world that he created, in my eyes if you write templates for the sake of readers then you aren't writing what you want at all, I can't trust authors that throw away what they want for unconstructive critics.

I think its wrong you to say to reviewers that its harm for them to say things based on what they wanted MC wanted to do when the author is also affected by their own readers opinion on what they want MC to do even if there is no reason at all, I've seen cases before of MC that got girls in a JP LN. Still, because of complaints of JP people the author made the MC stop being like that, it's not just a cultural problem but a reader problem as well, we don't give reasons to strive for different writing, for different things than just a template, using a model isn't a problem but how you use it but how many are willing to do anything interesting with any of them?

I love Sci-Fi, I Love Fantasy, but how many works I see that question their culture, belief, principles for the sake of developing a well-thought work, thinking of a different world, thinking of different ways and different beings/people if anything I see authors that try to force their own culture in works with entirely different settings and that their culture and that work just don't mix

 

I can see where the OP is coming from, and that different cultures will weigh things differently. But I can't agree with the conclusions. Just because there is a cultural reason why an author wrote in a particular way doesn't shield it from criticism. A prime example of this is the over valuation of virginity. Sure there are reasons why it's high regard, but that's not the problem. The problem is that the way virginity is presented in a lot of is gross and disgusting.

For story elements like overpowered characters, my main issue with them is more that they tend to be executed poorly. Partly this is because it takes a certain amount of writing skill to pull off properly and partly it's because the really writers tend to like this kind of storytelling.

 

Yes, but then you need to criticize the CULTURE not the author, and if you are going to do that you better be willing to accept the bad parts of your own culture (and no culture is perfect) or you are just a hypocritical troll.

 

It still doesn't matter what the culture is. If a piece of writing is problematic, then it's problematic. There's no need to criticize the culture because it's not the culture that's forcing them to write like this.

 

Understanding why someone wrote something the way they did doesn't necessarily equate quality though, it just explains why perhaps the author wrote something bad.
I'm not a fan of shitting on authors directly unless they are shitty people outside of their writing, but if you can't criticize stories how can you expect anything better from them?
Also reviews are also a piece of writing with an author, all of this can extend to those as well if you think about it, reasons for why they write what they do or reasons to criticize them.

 

Only and only if the person involve is someone wirh a jade like skin, milky mountain peaks, brows shaped like a phoenix etc. It's not really meddling if there's an ulterior motive. *wink*

 

Even if there are good reasons for the author writing it that way, it doesn't make the book less bad. The reviews aren't there to judge the author's writing skills, they're there to judge whether the book was enjoyable to read.

 

if review become subjective too harsh on critic hmm
wrong audience
lul
what parameter to judge a good review or good story?

 

Not sure what point you're trying to present about "rape" and "virginity".

Is your position that rape is ok because of historical cultural context? e.g. if a novel was a period drama and someone got raped, then it's ok?
Or are you just trying to point out that rape was more common in the olden days?
Or are you just complaining, that reviewers complain, when any rape is depicted in a novel?

The consensus these days is that it's ok if rape is depicted, but that it's a serious topic, that it's a terrible thing and deserves to be treated seriously (as a negative).
The typical problem with CN (and several asian) novels is that they portray rape in a VERY cavalier manner, usually for author's own fetish, or perverse titillation/gratuity to attract readers. e.g. Epoch of twilight, I Have a Mansion in apocalyptic whatever ....
And I think that's what reviewers/commentators are really complaining about.

EDIT:
Never heard of "beta MC" before, that's a pretty interesting phrase.
I don't think people complain about "normal MCs", but more about "loser MCs"
You know the kind ... failed at everything in life, no ambition, no work ethic, nobody likes him, but somehow he gets a superpower boost ... just because.

China's actually getting a lot better, although far from perfect.
Their legal system is steadily improving to prevent and severely punish cases of fraud, including medical bill scam, real estate scams, etc. I've seen several recent cases where the judge either threw the case out of court, or went (maybe above and beyond) to order the scammers to pay damages .... kinda reminds me of Stephen Chow's films


On the China virginity thing, my anecdotal evidence from both male and female CN friends (who live in major CN cities including Beijing, Nanjing, Shanghai, Wuhan, Tianjin) is that it's the opposite. That it's common and accepted for China chinese women to have multiple boyfriends, sex outside of marriage, etc.
Agreed that the stigma on someone who was divorced still exists, but that holds true for Western cultures too.


Overall, you guys should note that the authors of CN (and asian novels) are a VERY SPECIFIC SUBSET of the population, and they inject their own fantasies and biases into the equation. You shouldn't draw conclusions of CN culture based on webnovels
Just like Jap mangas are drawn by a bunch of shut-in otakus with little social experience, hence the oversexualization of their drawings.

 

I don't understand the whole point of this conversation... as why does people treat most these novel as if they are anything, but read and not think. I mean most of the novels translated here except mostly the KR ones are not pay to read and so anyone that can type could create shit for readers that will chow on any bottom feeds to pass time. The rule is 90% of anything is shit and only 10% of its are gem worth praising so don't worry about people complaining to much for the good and bad of novel. For me novels that can convince all the nasty shit that the MC does be it rape or genocide is alright to the reader and make one want to continue reading then that novel in turn author must be pretty good, but if they can't then they are pretty shit for even using them. I don't need you to tell me the cultural reason because if they are not relevant within the story in any significant matter than it is an outside influence without an internal reason that make it integral to the story. It can be cut off like a disease limb cause the scene add nothing to the story in significance and make it trash writing regardless of cultural context. Since we aren't watching the scene playout with animation and music the rule of cool simply can't work for trash writing for most power fantasy.

 

Virginity is always important regardless of culture or religion, few just decide to not care about it.

 

The culture is there problem and liking what I read is mine. Naturally I will judge it from my perspective as it is the only one I can truly have. I will always have problems in novels where the author depicts rape and racism as awesome. I might feel differently if it is portrayed in a different way that makes it clear the mc is terrible and is supposed to be condemned.

 

Or I can just hate rape and the way the author displays it. He is responsible for what he writes, no matter how the culture shaped him, he is himself.

 

If the aspect you do not like is due to the culture the author is from and writing for, hate the culture.

Everyone has blind spots that they can not see are wrong due to the culture they were raised in. We are individuals, but we are all products of our environments.

If you see something you hate that is due to cultural differences, it is in no way fair or rational to blame the author for that.

Saying that the author needs to conform to your values is nothing other then Arrogance and unjustified self entitlement.

 

That's nonsense. All any critic needs to do is to point out what portions of the work is problematic. Whether this is to do with the writer's personal choices or if it's the product of his upbringing isn't immediately important nor is it easily disinguishable. In other words, there might be some academic interest in telling the two apart, but it pretty silly to just blanket criticize an entire culture (moreover, unless the critic is very familiar with the culture in question he will probably have no idea what he's talking about).

 

I don't expect him too, I just don't like him. It is stupid to not consider what the author did as his own actions just because that is what he was taught. I find it abominable because that is what it is to me, how he got this way is none of my concern.

 

THIS! SO. MUCH. THIS. the problem with beta MCs is that they want a harem and sex and they are horny af but then when it comes time to seal the deal and they get every sign of consent all the way to girls specifically telling them, they wimp out and nothing happens. I've read tons of non-hentai JP harem novels and the number of those where the MC wasnt beta af is relatively tiny.

ALSO THIS. THIS TIME A MILLION. That's a major issue with male protag isekai: it mostly turns into a "japan culture is the best ever. bow down to it you otherworld plebs" self-satisfied jerk off. I've seen a small few where the protag adapts to the culture or blends the cultures together in a decent way but most just dont even care and bother about otherworld culture and just insert japanese culture in random points.

One novel i do love that tackles cultural problems and interface is Outbreak Company. It sometimes reads almost like a meta-parody of how otherworld cultures are treated in isekai because the protag really has to reconcile his views as a japanese with the culture of another world and stuff like different social positions.

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On the general topic, it's not right to wholly blame the culture for problematic stuff in novels but it is not right either to absolve the culture of all responsibility. I think that one of the biggest general issues is the difference in relative cultural permeability. Western culture is relatively more permeable to change on a societal level than most asian cultures, it seems. I stress the relativity because western culture sometimes has it's own issues with change.