Virus Question

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by kuroAnsatsu, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Zomula

    Zomula Well-Known Member

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    One did happen about 100 years ago. It was called the Spanish Flu. Epidemics are supposed to happen naturally around every 20-40 years, but with medical advancements over the past century we have been able to cut them off to the point that we are now 100 years since the last one. My bet is that, like the last few scares, this one will be ended before it becomes a real pandemic as well.
     
  2. haweii

    haweii [mad scientist in-training] Fujoshi

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    If you wash with clean water and rinse it, the bacteria and so on will be partially washed away, so why should bacteria spread? And if there is XXX number of basteria on the meat, it does not matter WHERE they are, they are still on the meat.

    If you want to kill bacteria, cook your food for a few minutes above 80°C (this also includes the middle/core) and they are dead (above 80°C are only Archaea who lives in extreme environments, spores and toxins)
     
  3. chencking

    chencking [Daolord Grammar Nazi]

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    This is false. Washing meat is unsafe. The water simply lets the bacteria spread. Also, it is a basic biological fact that bacteria can both move and duplicate, yet your paragraph implies differently. If you do not know biology please don't make arbitrary food safety recommendations.

    The only reason to wash meat is to remove physical contamination (ie. dirt and bone fragments). This is done knowing bacteria will spread to other areas. Otherwise do not wash your meats.
     
  4. Kadmos1

    Kadmos1 Well-Known Member

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    If there was XXX number, then it would be only for adults.
     
  5. Lazriser

    Lazriser Well-Known Member

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    I understood that reference intensifies!
    It would have been better if the virus was the sanguine virus. Imagine the possibilities~ Free stakes and sucking!
     
  6. Nightow1

    Nightow1 Well-Known Member

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    While technically true, the goal to washing meat is to make these bacteria go somewhere else physically. As long as it is not on the meat you are going to eat. About 90% of surface bacteria from your hands go down the drain with handwashing, so it would be somewhere around the same ballpark for washing meat. Not every place carries the same bacteria load so while bacteria transfers, it transfers to a specific location, down the sink and not, for example, onto your counter tops. The goal of washing isn't to kill bacteria, it is to channel them to less harmful locations. Unless you are in the habit of licking the bottom of sinks. So overall it is still worthwhile to give meat a rinse.

    Of course, all this assumes the water is not chlorinated.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  7. chencking

    chencking [Daolord Grammar Nazi]

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    That is absolutely not the same. No one gets salmonella from licking their hands. Nor do we soap meat, nor should we. And in the first place, with regards to meat, the concern is not the surface. You're eating an animal's insides. Everything on the surface is also inside it. That's why people are recommended to cook meat to a safe internal temperature. And again, do not give food safety recommendations if you do not understand them. It is unsafe to wash meat.

    As for your inane comment about licking sinks, obviously no one who wants to remain healthy would do so. But it is also a fact water splashes. It is very easy for some to splash out of the sink.

    I am drawing my information from the FDA and other governmental agencies. I do not know what basis you have for believing washing meat is a good safety practice, but I assure you it is not. And there fore I must reiterate: do not give food safety recommendations if you do not understand them. Misinformation can be a serious problem.
     
  8. haweii

    haweii [mad scientist in-training] Fujoshi

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    I will direct the question to you, are you working or studying in the field of medicine/biology/quality management/smth similar?
    Just to answer your question, I am studying food science and biotechnology, specializing in medical biotechnology. I think this is sufficient enough to say that I am a bit knowledgeable about biology.

    Bacteria move and duplicate, but the thing is, that takes time. It's not like you wash your meat and let it rest for like 24 hours? The fastest duplication time, is 20 minutes for E.coli to double themselves, in optimal environment conditions (37°C, enough needed nutrition around, no other microorganism around as rivals,...)

    And like you said, washing removes dirt, blood and so on. Do bacteria also stay in the dirt? Yes. If you wash the dirt, some bacteria are washed away. You say they move, some bacteria moves, some not (coccus, the round bacteria, can't move by themselves). It is the same principle as washing your hands with water, according to you, the bacteria will spread even more through more washing.
    Like I said some bacteria are washed away, some not. And there comes the next step - cook it.

    Or do you perhaps mean, that through washing bacteria will arrive in the canalisation? I hope the canalisation system in your country is working. In your faeces are a lot of different bacteria, and they should be the ones which mostly contaminates your food (infection through fecal-oral transmission)

    If you still don't agree, please give a more detailed explanation, why washing meat is dangerous. Till know I can only understand that you believe some rumors.

    If you want papers, I will gladly provide (just give me a bit time, except you can understand German)
     
  9. chencking

    chencking [Daolord Grammar Nazi]

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    Please do. If you had read my post, you would see I am referencing the FDA and governmental agencies. So no, a student's sophistry is not credible. Not at all.

    To address your latest post: you still fail to address your uncanny obsession with the surface of the meat, neglecting its insides. You fail to address your obsession with sinks. You fail to address your insistence on equating bacteria in meat to dirt on a fruit's skin. You again falsely equate washing hands with soap to rinsing meat. And you yet again both present rinsing meat as somehow beneficial, yet what is washed off to be of no risk. And to repeat, do not give food safety recommendations if you do not completely understand what you are recommending. You are saying that, on the basis of your few years as a student, you are wiser than the FDA.

    This is not rocket science. You, a student "studying food science and biotechnology, specializing in medical biotechnology", are saying people should wash meat. You present analogy after analogy to justify your case. Analogies are not conducive to science. Present science if you want to be convincing.
     
  10. Lazriser

    Lazriser Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, is it safe to wash meat and vegetables with water or not? Secondly, should water be chlorinated or not when washing meat or vegetables?

    Lastly, does anyone plug their friend's butt hole with a bar of detergent soap?
     
  11. akes117

    akes117 Well-Known Member

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    fake news,it has been cancelled
     
  12. Sabruness

    Sabruness Cultured Yuri Connoisseur

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    the current likelihood is that it first began after people bought and ate (unknowningly) illegal animals which were likely infected by bats. Thats how coronavirus type viruses spread.

    the coronavirus family includes the flus and common cold and spread from animals to humans. here's a link that explains all about them: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/about/index.html
     
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  13. Nightow1

    Nightow1 Well-Known Member

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    chencking, I work in CDC as a disease analyst. I even presented once on this very topic on the efficiency of different methods of infection control. You may "in theory" use the name of the FDA but can you reference the papers? Because if someone from our department is actively enspousing methods that encourage spread of bacteria, we need to have a talk with him.

    In hope that you actually are open to new information, bacteria washed away is retained in the water due to their cell membrane's hydrophilic nature (phospholipid bilayer with a hydrophilic head and hydrophobic tail) and the polarizing nature of water molecules. When a bacteria cell gets washed away from the surface, it is "encapsulated" in water molecules and brought away. This redirects the bacteria into a "safe" location down the sink rather than on your food that you are about to consume. So while "in theory" the bacteria is spreading, in practice, it is trapped within the water where it will go to sewerage treatment centers to be sterilized before being released as waste water. If in developed countries. In undeveloped countries, they can skip this step and it is MASSIVELY not advised to be anywhere near the outlets of raw sewerage as the bacterial load there is incredibly high and not to mention the prevalence of microfilaria like Loa loa or Banecrofti (you can look them up if interested).

    So while "in theory" bacteria spreads by water, in practice, it goes to a sewerage treatment plant for "flocculation" and sterilization, which makes it a dead end for bacteria. Unless you are in a country that does not do that.

    And of course it does nothing for bacteria inside the food, yes in this part you are right, please cook to at least 80 degrees C. But saying meat washing causes disease spread is both overselling and misunderstanding what goes on in the process. I do understand the thinking that resulted in this theory, basically it is a misapplicaton of free Brownian Motion on a situation that does not apply because the object in question is not "free".

    Now would a Professor in the specific field satisfy your "level" of professionalism you demand if that student was not sufficient?

    Edit: I did a check on the media releases and yes chencking is right in that the media released discourages washing. I asked around and apparently the media releases have to cater to the "lowest common denominator" so they are assuming untreated water with no bacteriological properties (boiled water in other words). So while in theory it can be a problem, it's only for those areas with untreated water. Other than that, the supplied water in cities is chlorinated and will kill bacteria. This is kind of a case for different conditions, it's not one size fits all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  14. Shio

    Shio Moderator Staff Member

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    When you gotta mince and cut stuff in the same place, I do think it's better to wash the meat first tho. The meat are going to fly and contaminate everything anyway. Washing the stuff to make sure there's no mud or things left would help to reduce the amount of dirty stuff scatering around the house when I whack those meats into pieces.

    Not all meat are washed clean and put into plastic bag like in supermarket. In developing country like mine the meat are often placed in quite questionable places, you see.
     
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  15. Nightow1

    Nightow1 Well-Known Member

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    Does your country chlorinate its water supply?
     
  16. haweii

    haweii [mad scientist in-training] Fujoshi

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    First, I admit I didn't read your answer to another person post before I wrote my answer before (regarding the spraying water droplets while washing).
    BUT you didn't read my post completly and now accuse me.
    I said "some are washed away" SOME. bacteria are ALSO on dirt, and washing dirt, blood,... also removes SOME bacteria. (less surface, 100% removal is not possible)

    You were the one who asked me if I understood biological basics. Yeah I do, and I even study stuff in that direction. That was my answer to your question/accusation. I didn't say I was a professional, neither did I push for "you MUST wash meat". I stated what in my eyes about your arguments were wrong. From the point of what I learned about microorganisms, hygienic and quality management's.
    Did YOU read my posts before? I already stated the cooking the meat thoroughly for a while at minimum 80°C (the inner core should also be cooked at that temperature) is VERY important. So please, read the comments more thoroughly and THEN say what is wrong from your point of view. I am not here for arguing for winnings sake, but for exchanging viewpoints and facts.

    Regarding your statement of why meat must not be washed, I researched a bit and from what I collected, washing meat is not effective since the rate of washing the bacteria away and getting bacteria through water droplets on nearby food (vegetables,...) which may not be cooked, is more of a problem.
    I think it makes more sense to keep uncooked vegetables away from raw meat, ranging from the cutting board till the sink, than to not just wash meat. I prefer to get rid of the blood, dirt, and so on from my food before cooking it (and it taste better that way)
     
  17. Nightow1

    Nightow1 Well-Known Member

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    That is called cross contamination and not the fault of the water but the people not properly separating cooked and uncooked food. Not to mention that most populated areas chlorinate and florinate their water, which means that the tap water you are using is "naturally" bacteriocidal.

    And how did a talk on virii become a talk on bacteria? They're 2 different things.
     
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  18. Nightow1

    Nightow1 Well-Known Member

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    I figured that I need to put this out a 2nd time to point out that chencking is potentially right so he doesn't get run over by too many people.

    I did a check on the media releases and yes chencking is right in that the media released discourages washing. I asked around and apparently the media releases have to cater to the "lowest common denominator" so they are assuming untreated water with no bacteriological properties (boiled water in other words). So while in theory it can be a problem, it's only for those areas with untreated water. Other than that, the supplied water in cities is chlorinated and will kill bacteria. This is kind of a case for different conditions, it's not one size fits all, and assumes you don't clean up your area after use.

    And of course you need to cook it properly since it is the main mechanism for bacteriocidal action.

    The irony is that the same theory that discourages washing chicken can also be extended to discouraging you from washing your hands.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  19. chencking

    chencking [Daolord Grammar Nazi]

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    I was getting really frustrated so I stepped away for awhile to calm down. Let me present my view wholly. First, my posts are based on personal circumstances - as can be seen in the post I quoted, I dropped a small aside and wasn't expecting anyone to dissent. It is a fact that the FDA advises people not to wash meats. Whether one agrees with said recommendation, it is a fact. Per Nightow1's post, it seems cities chlorinate water making it less of an issue. I will upfront say my family does not have access to city water, so seeing people advocate washing meat (when it took me months to persuade my own family to stop) really, really irritated me.

    I would also like to point out that in my family, over the course of the day the sink will often fill to the point water splashes out. It can easily reach the counter. Heck, I've been soaked a couple times when a plate was tilted just right. I am sure most of you reading this must have similar experiences. So unless you need to wash off bone debris from the butcher or the like, I still believe washing your meat increases the chances of cross-contamination while providing little benefit. Of course, maybe your water is chlorinated and the risk of cross-contamination is near 0%. I find this tidbit interesting and may read a bit about it, but washing meat still sounds like an unsafe practice.

    As a possible non sequitur, I would like to point out I believe I never called washing meat a dangerous practice. To me "dangerous" and "unsafe" carry different nuances. I find misinformation dangerous. I do not find this practice quite on that level.

    I appreciate both how well-written your paragraph is and how you truly did present the science. But I would like to point out I was never concerned about the bacteria that goes down the sink. Someone else in this flurry of an argument directed the conversation towards sewage. My concern was in cross-contamination. I probably should have mentioned the term specifically - I took it for granted when I mentioned splashing, as I did not expect my original comment to be contested in the first place.

    I find what you wrote about cities chlorinating water interesting, and probably will read more about it later. But I am hesitant to believe that chlorinated water can fully eliminate the risk of cross-contamination. I did see you wrote, "Other than that, the supplied water in cities is chlorinated and will kill bacteria ... assumes you don't clean up your area after use." This seems to imply that the chlorine will prevent any cross-contamination, but I am hesitant to believe that. I believe it will lower the bacteria's concentration below dangerous levels, but given enough time would they not be able to duplicate?

    In theory, it sounds nice to say that as long as you keep the meats separate or clean up it is okay. But it just does not seem realistic. Kitchens are communal spaces. Even if one keeps the meats separated, someone else could (and in my case, often will) cross-contaminate the kitchen.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  20. Nightow1

    Nightow1 Well-Known Member

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    Wait, they don't use flowing water when they wash?? This is where I think we parted ways on the methods. Flowing water flushes the debris and bacteria down the sink, washing in a stagnant pool of water just contaminates the whole pool. Flowing water, not stagnant. Your example is probably one of the "lowest common denominator" case. A proper run kitchen should have bleach or hypochloride to clean up after working and very strict partitions. Veggies and meat do NOT mix. I know of one case in a freezer where the meltwater from the meat dripped into the vegetables for a catering company. IIRC, there were 4(?) deaths. Never ever mix raw meat and vegetables even in the freezer. Work on one at a time. Most often, contamination is due to human laziness and carelessness.

    Just a surprise fact, soaps are actually not bacteriocidal except for specially doctored soaps. If you wash your hands with soap, the bacteria will still be active. Were you taught how soaps worked in Grade School? Just think back and you'll find that the mechanism never said anything about being bactriocidal. So the bottom of the sink is a real biohazard. Hypochloride it often.