Fiction Writers PSA

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Twilight Fox, Feb 16, 2020.

  1. Lazriser

    Lazriser Well-Known Member

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    Hmm? I'll try this someday, somewhere back at time.
     
  2. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

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    :blob_plusone::blob_pompom:See, this person gets it.
     
  3. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

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    I can't think of anything that would fit that description besides a technical manuel.
     
  4. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

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    I haven't read Grand Master Strategist, but I'm doubting this...
     
  5. pass1478

    pass1478 I'm in Despair!

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    Read it and you'll understand.
     
  6. lnv

    lnv ✪ Well-Known Hypocrite

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    Sure it is, not every day in life is interesting. If your story is simply you jumping from important moment to important moment sure. But if your story where you follow the daily life of a character. It is also important for sense of realism that the world doesn't just revolve around the MC and that there are both fruitful and not fruitful days.

    As for simply switching to another character if your MCs story is boring that day. Sure, but again we go back to a story that you wish to tell. While a story about a pickpocket might be interesting, it doesn't mean that is the story one wishes to tell.

    It's like turning on a cooking show and they spend the whole show talking about how to fix cars. Now that might be interesting in itself, but not why you are watching the show now is it?

    You are arguing in favor of trying to force in stories. And that also can have negative consequences of making readers impatient or simply not care.


    I said the BASICS of magic. You know, things like the 4 elements and maybe compound elements and a few basics. Now the details of the magic system might be important. But dropping down the basics in an short infodump saves everyone a ton of time.


    That's cool and all, but what if its irrelevant to your story? All the character needs to know is where they are and what is around them. That is all. If that can be summed up in a few paragraphs, that is better than trying to come up with 5 chapters worth of content to try to make the character learn it.

    And I will say it again, they DON'T HAVE TO.

    Look, I don't like infodumps either, I am not a fan of them at all. But I understand like all things, infodump is a tool. If your style is to not use said tool, fine. But that is your style. For other people, not using said tool might limit their artistic capacity.

    You don't need to come up with a story for every single little thing. (And this is coming from a person who loves to come up with stories for every single little thing). But what I hate more than infodumps is reading story after story that deviates from the plot.

    Everyone has their own style, and I don't like slow paced stuff that wastes the readers time. If a few paragraphs of infodump can save me writing 10-20 chapters of unrelated stories, I'd rather do that. Then put all the side stories inside intermissions. So that people can learn about that thief they met that one time.

    Again, part of being an author is picking and choosing which stories you wish to tell and which ones you don't.
     
  7. --MON--

    --MON-- «Observer» «Death» «Lazy Reader»

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    try some random map generator on the net then revise it. you can try generating several maps then edit it by getting bits of land that you need or something like that. i tried to make a map too but it's hard to think about it and actually doing it is harder. or you can reference other maps when you make yours.
     
  8. Shizun

    Shizun 《Jack of all trades》《Artist/Author》《Dao of BLedia》

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    It was even bit known ones like game of thrones and etc xd

    I still don't know when the trend of putting detailed description into a (....) in the middle of the sentence began
     
  9. --MON--

    --MON-- «Observer» «Death» «Lazy Reader»

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    specially those stories that fill a bunch of nonsense details that only makes the story longer when it really is irrelevant whether the said detail is there or not, and the story will still be able to progress without any problem. those kind of stories that have good plot and you are enjoying it but suddenly there are details that are too long that it can make another chapter completely on its own. i skip those just by scanning while scrolling until the part where it's relevant to the story again then start reading slowly again.
     
  10. The Everdistant Utopia

    The Everdistant Utopia Honorary Maou | Part Time Writer | Crau's

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    "An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to the reader's ability to understand said magic."

    Leaving the fact that I wouldn't normally quote Sanderson aside, there's more nuance to magic in storytelling than you make it seem. While there are stories that can be told using such system, namely a soft magic system, there are those who cannot. Are you saying that any story that requires a hard magic system are not worth telling? Or are you saying that they are inherently inferior to those with soft magic system? I'm not trying to get a stab at you, it's a genuine question. I'd like to know your opinions on that, since I'm more inclined to hard magic systems.

    As for this excerpt:
    This is not a problem with the system itself, and this problem can even be found in systems that do use soft(ish) magic. The problem here lays with the author either not clarifying things correctly or not maintaining an internal consistency on their story. At the end of the day, magic systems are just tools to be used by the writer in his story. You can't blame the tools because someone misused it. You can, however, not like the tools because they aren't what you need for your stories, and that I can understand.

    I'm not saying that magic systems should be explained fully to the reader, but I'm saying that some systems do not require 'mysterious means'. As long as the limitations are clear and consistent, a system can be made there. As long as the reader has the basic understanding to rationalize the character's thoughts and decisions in regard to the magic system.

    On info dumps, I do totally agree with you. I don't think they are the best way to convey worldbuilding, at least not compared to properly integrating exposition with storytelling.

    If you don't quite want realism in terms of tectonics, then try Azgaar. Tectonics aside, it can simulate climates/temperatures/rainfall quite well.
     
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  11. --MON--

    --MON-- «Observer» «Death» «Lazy Reader»

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    fonts can be used depending on the atmosphere/theme of the story. but having more variety of fonts in one story? no no no it's not a manga or comics it's a novel.

    adding explanation details in the middle of the sentence :LOL::LOL::LOL: it looks like an author's note or tl's note trying to anotate their own work so that they can understand it when they could've written it in a way that you can understand without explaining it by using ( ) in the middle of the sentence/paragraph.
     
  12. --MON--

    --MON-- «Observer» «Death» «Lazy Reader»

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    then
    then how long each chapter should be?
     
  13. Lazriser

    Lazriser Well-Known Member

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    Not long enough to be considered chapter-like. Mashed up ideas collectively placed in one chapter.
     
    Sawanara murasaki and --MON-- like this.
  14. UnGrave

    UnGrave ななひ~^^

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    I actually quite enjoy large info dumps explaining technical concepts or politics. However, I also enjoy reading textbooks for fun, so I guess I'm just a weirdo.
     
  15. Shizun

    Shizun 《Jack of all trades》《Artist/Author》《Dao of BLedia》

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    Hm what i learned was that using font is not really that good and it meant that the author was lacking in experience? Especially to express that a character is shouting it out in a dialogue. Although it was the basics in writing that I learned in school...

    Yea. There were tons of these (...) XD and I was like da hell. I mean, I would have understood it if it's wattpad, but it was in real books that u could buy in a bookstore... I had expected better quality.... They have tons of that and I really really don't get from where the trend came from.
     
  16. Nimroth

    Nimroth Someone

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    Info dumps do work just fine, thing is just that when they are done well you don't really notice it as much as when they are done badly, and for some stories they are even a necessity.
    Sure it often makes little sense for a character to deliver an info dump, but there is also cases where it would be more strange for a character not to deliver one.
    The main thing is it should be made to fit the context of when/how/why/by whom that the info dump is given, if it is the exact same type of dry info dumping each time with no regard to context then I would call that a red flag.
    And this isn't even touching on the can of worms that is info dumps given through narration.
     
  17. --MON--

    --MON-- «Observer» «Death» «Lazy Reader»

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    maybe they forgot to proofread? hahaha.

    should've not written it at all it's not translated webnovels that needed to have tl/author's notes to explain every word, sentence, or idoms that they use. if hey want they should put it at the last few pages of the book containing all the words, phrases, idioms and their meaning for the readers to view of they don't know instead of puting it along the story. and i thought that using ( ) is for when authors are projecting the character's thought and not to explain things.
     
  18. --MON--

    --MON-- «Observer» «Death» «Lazy Reader»

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    they should just put it into a separate chapter called "info dump 1" and so on for every chapter that has a part that are needed to be explained (only for the badly written ones) or just put everything into the end of every book (named info dumps marked with which chapter, which line and so on for words or parts of the book that needed to be explained through info dumps ) where the readers can check if they want to (if it's not really a part of their writing style and just want to inform)
     
  19. Vanidor

    Vanidor Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I'm anywhere near the best person for that conversation but narrators and other uses of tell were much more common in many of the 'classics'. At a guess I'd say it is related to the theater of the time which used narrators to 'set the stage' for audiences.

    Short stories is perhaps the spot with the most 'telling' remaining because their restrictions on length. I think remember one of Brandon Sanderson's video lectures with a short story guest lecturer briefly touched on it.

    One of the things I find fascinating about writing is that every rule that is usually mentioned about it has been broken by some critically acclaimed writer or popular writer. Unfortunately people use that as an excuse sometimes instead of realizing why they might be doing it.
     
  20. imK

    imK Artful Dodger

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    Case by case. It depends on why the infodump is there and how you use it. I recently finished reading the English translation of Liu Cixin's The Three-Body Problem (Book 1 of the Remembrance of Earth's Past series) and it was brilliant. It also features infodumping. The way he weaves physics/mathematics/sociologic concepts into his narrative is compelling and adds rich detail to the world of his novel. Mishima Yukio, Neal Stephenson, David Marusek and Peter F Hamilton are all authors whose novels utilize the infodump in clever ways to add pertinent information for the reader's understanding and enjoyment.

    Do most people suck at infodumping? Absolutely. Does that mean you should never use it and it never serves a purpose? No. You don't have to use it or like it, but it has its place and others are more than able to do what we mere mortals won't.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020