Fiction Writers PSA

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Twilight Fox, Feb 16, 2020.

  1. Kadmos1

    Kadmos1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    1,538
    Reading List:
    Link
    The info dumps of techno-babble in anime, light novels, web novels, and manga have to aggravating when translating that into English.
     
    Twilight Fox, imK and UnGrave like this.
  2. UnGrave

    UnGrave ななひ~^^

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2016
    Messages:
    4,072
    Likes Received:
    12,832
    Reading List:
    Link
    I do admit that the technical stuff is some of the hardest material to translate. Kinda fun though, unless you misunderstand a single point early on and have to rework everything you've said about a certain topic since it's impossible to move on due to that fundamental mistake you made.
     
    The Everdistant Utopia and imK like this.
  3. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,968
    Likes Received:
    11,186
    Reading List:
    Link
    Imagine translating an unnecessary chapter that was filled only with technical jargon....I pity Sci-Fi novel translators....
     
  4. Invisalats

    Invisalats The Bearded One

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2016
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    977
    Reading List:
    Link
    Yeah... Maps are such a pain to create, they never seem to look right when I do it. With out a map it gets difficult to be more precise with distance and direction.
     
  5. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,968
    Likes Received:
    11,186
    Reading List:
    Link
    At that point, your not writing a story though, your writing chapter summaries! There is so much lost potential when an author can't be assed to put effort into their writing! Take this paragraph for example. It comes from the RR novel Artificer chapter 3 paragraph 12.

    "One of the infrastructures built with this money was the college of Dornholdt, which took students from any country and helped cement the neutrality of Dornholdt. The college was the largest anywhere and was considered the most prestigious of academies. There were, of course, others, but none of them could ever hope to compete with Dornholdt, they just didn't have the resources or the neutrality."

    This author just explained a critical part of the story in less than 10 seconds and made it about as interesting as a calculus text book! If it was me, I would have waited until the MC actually GOT to the college to explain it. I would have had the MC remark on how well or unkempt the college looks and have someone in a few paragraphs explain the college was losing money to competitors and was struggling financially.

    That sets up a motive for a potential story about how the college is fudging numbers to keep investors or the government happy, it allows for some conveint excuses as too why they are looked down on, I can make plot devices out of ruined spell testing chambers or laboratories. So much lost potential all because someone didn't want put in the effort! It doesn't have to be 5 chapters long! It just has to explain things with a modicum of effort!

    I don't see the point of info dumping outside of a technical manuel or a potion recipe. If your infodumping basic common knowledge, then why are you doing it in the first place, and if your info dumping critical story information, why are you even writing a story in the first place if your not actually writing the story!

    A story isn't just about that one cool moment you want to get too and everything else is just a bother. If it is, just write short stories, not novels. That way you don't have to setup an entire cardboard cutout world only to not use it ever, or use it once as a plot device.

    A story is about creating a narrative that in the works of fantasy, often convey wonder, mystery, and awe. I won't get into the argument of action scenes in novels, but if you want to show off a particular action scene with a badass fight scene, go learn animation. Its probably better for the type of "story" you want to tell.
     
  6. lnv

    lnv ✪ Well-Known Hypocrite

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2017
    Messages:
    7,702
    Likes Received:
    9,044
    Reading List:
    Link
    No one is saying to do the whole story as an info dump. As I said, all things in moderation.

    Now that is just borderline insulting. Potential lost or not is up for debate, but saying an author isn't putting in effort just because they choose to use infodumps is flat out BS! If a musician puts a pause in the music, are they being too lazy to put in more musical notes? Not at all. There is more to artistic presentation than filling everything in.

    One of the biggest mistakes in amateur art is that more detail is considered better and higher quality. So they try to overload with detail and breaking the flow of the artwork.

    Same applies for the story, its all about flow.

    Ignoring the many issues in that paragraph and sticking to just our discussion. I can't also tell the context it is used in without actually reading up to that chapter, but otherwise, I see no problem with such an introduction overall (well some of the content of the introduction is questionable, but that could simply be because I haven't read it in context).

    There is nothing wrong overall with an introduction being as interesting as a calculus textbook, it doesn't have to be interesting. It simply informs so you can move on to what is actually interesting.

    But is that the story the author wants to tell?

    Because as a different person, your common knowledge and common knowledge around you varies a lot. You also have to understand that readers aren't always patient. I've seen many stories get poor scores simply because the author didn't spoon feed them the plot. So when the culture of that world didn't align with their personal knowledge, they just rated the story poorly.

    One thing great about technical manuals is that they are made precisely that people are less likely to misinterpret them.


    Because your story isn't about wheels being round, but about a car? You can spend all day talking about why a tire of a car is how it is, but most people care more of, is the tire good? fine, then lets get into the details on the actual car.


    Stories are about the climax, that is what everyone who remembers a story does so by the climatic scenes. But don't confuse the fact that the story is about climax, doesn't mean that everything in between is a bother. How you get to the climax is just as important. Because for your climax to have maximum impact, it needs to be presented properly. And this is why many OP MC stories get boring quickly. Because the author keeps jumping from climax to climax that it just gets stale.

    That said, to properly present a story up to the climax, many tools are used to build up suspense. If you go tangent on your story, it'll just make your climax more stale as well. You've seen this plenty of times where author says some major event is coming and then goes side tracked with this and that, by the time the event comes, no one cares anymore.

    Picking and choosing what kind of story you wish to tell and what kind of story you don't wish to tell is important part of writing. If you are forcing yourself to tell stories that you are not fully committed to, your writing quality will suffer.

    Right, but its up to the author to decide what narrative they wish to display. You going to the bathroom does not need to be magical or mystical even in a fantasy novel. It's just you going to the bathroom.

    Again, all things are like a toolbox. You have to use each tool properly. Misuse of the tool can lower quality, but proper use can enrich a story, even infodumps.
     
    Way, imK, crimson_carnation and 2 others like this.
  7. Kadmos1

    Kadmos1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    1,538
    Reading List:
    Link
    With the technical jargon, that is where I think the "lost in translation" issue might be more forgivable.
     
    imK likes this.
  8. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,968
    Likes Received:
    11,186
    Reading List:
    Link
    Ikr currently I am using knkarnate to do it, and just taking as much time as necessary to do it right.
     
  9. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,968
    Likes Received:
    11,186
    Reading List:
    Link
    Oh really? Name one instance where an author was actually putting effort into an info dump. None, because dumping information on people shows you just don't care to show the information in a way natural to the story, so you just dump it on the reader.

    Potential lost is completely up for debate. If an author doesn't even realize what opportunities they are passing up because they want to get to the cool action scenes or tell the reader about this cool magic spell they thought up, then they probably shouldn't be writing.

    Oh and your insult about amateure writers is about as subtle as a train wreck. So kindly piss off

    Actually, why don't we examine them instead of glossing over them like you want too.

    This is the first time this college is introduced ever in the novel. First impressions matter! And for first impressions, we get an info dump. Not a conversation with anyone who has been there and has told the MC about the place, not even a text book. Just magically the detailed knowledge of a location he has never been too pops into his head. This is stupid and a reason why info dumps are almost always stupid.

    People don't just suddenly know all about the political situation or social atmosphere of a place! And yes I'm sure you could make up any number of reasons why he knows what he knows, but you know it's bullshit and the author never expected anyone to ask those questions, and never fleshed out the details.

    If your introduction is as entertaining as a calculus textbook, then who hell would read it. If the begining of your story is only info dumps so that the author can move the pace of the novel along so that they can get to the "good part", then your novel is likely 90% info dump and 10% whatever interesting thing your author thinks is most important, instead of focusing on what's actually important, like a good introduction that is interesting and makes you want to keep reading.

    Or, maybe they were rated poorly because the world and culture was a cardboard cutout that served only as a background never to be used or mentioned again.

    And by definition, common knowledge, is COMMON! If you talk to anyone who knows what a fantasy novel is, they know what a magic spell is, or a wizard, or a dragon. That is common knowledge. It needs no explanation because the people of the community centered around the subject know what your talking about.

    And I do hope you can understand this. Technical Manuel, are not novels! Let me reiterate that. An Ikea furniture Manuel is not a story.

    Your example is stupid and has no point. Everyone knows how a tire works and it's considered common knowledge. I will say it again, and I swear if you want to claim an info dump is just saving some time on behalf the or readers part, clearly you don't know how lazy some authors can be.

    A story told via info dump is not a story. If a story is more than half, which is a very generous amount, then it is an info dump. Especially if the other half is mindless action scenes that serve no purpose other than to wow the reader.

    You say that people remember stories for their climaxes and authors don't treat everything In between as a bother. Yet I can find a dozen novels in a single google search that have work building and background so thin and barley ever talked about that it's more of a paper cut out than cardboard. People who info dump their critical world information, plot points, and other important information, don't strike me as the type who would be assed to do more world building other than "the big town where all this takes place is like this, this, and this. Now let's talk about my cool demon heritage."

    Writing quality slipping due to telling to many stories? HA Only if the author has more than one! Or even has one that's fully fleshed out.

    If your info dumping a normal trip to the bathroom, that's so pointless I wouldn't even bother talking about it. Or are you supposed to info dump whenever a charter breathes or enters a building.

    Tool in the tool box. As if! No one uses info dumping consciously and those that do it unconsciously don't even realize it and have done it a million times already in one chapter.

    It isn't a tool, it's a thing to watch out for. The only thing you should be using info dumps for are technical manuels. If you are includeding unnecessary information that is common knowledge, just cut it out of the novel completely. If you are info dumping to move the story along, just stop writing a novel and go write a short story or learn animation.

    This whole conversation is pointless and I'm tired of reading your slowly picked apart deconstruction of my every word, and I am even more tired of taking an hour to write a response. I swear if you reply some long winded irritating to read multi quoted smarter than thou bullshit comment, I'm blocking you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  10. Nimroth

    Nimroth Someone

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    4,072
    Likes Received:
    3,615
    Reading List:
    Link
    Might as well get the thread locked if you only wanted to rant and not discuss your claims at all.
     
  11. lnv

    lnv ✪ Well-Known Hypocrite

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2017
    Messages:
    7,702
    Likes Received:
    9,044
    Reading List:
    Link
    You are missing the forest from the trees. The effort is put into the FLOW of the story. You might look at a house and think the builder was lazy to leave holes in the house. Other people call those holes doors and windows.

    You are simply looking at 1 element and judging that element by itself, not as a whole. A story is more than just a sum of its parts.


    In business, there is a thing called opportunity cost. It is the cost of taking one opportunity over another opportunity. You might think that jumping on every opportunity would be a win, but you don't realize that you might actually be missing out on bigger opportunities.

    Uhm, what?! I said amateur artists, not writers. And not sure why you are getting hostile here...

    Again, it is hard for me to judge without context, but if he did not know this information prior (due to say living a life on said world for many years) that is one thing. But your issue here then stems more from author's poor use of infodump rather than an infodump itself.

    And as I explained, you should not only do infodumps. All things in moderation. But an infodump once a blue moon isn't the end of the world. And important events do not always have to be things like whats at the end of the volume. It could be minor things along the way.

    Just understand, not all authors wish to tell a story about everything. And may wish to use an infodump once a blue moon to move the flow of the story. Even more so if their story is setting and time sensitive, and going adjacent trying to show it might ruin the main plot. There are also uses for infodumps such as giving out minimal information so you can time the reveal of the details at a better time.

    IF your story is 1% infodump, is that the end of the world? No it isn't.


    Nope, it was pretty much the center of the entire plot of the story. But people simply never got that far into the story because they lost patience. And when people lose patience, some quit while others stop paying attention to the subtle details of the story.

    And that is why you have to be very careful when writing. If people get fixated on things, they might start skimming your novel instead of reading it.

    What might be common knowledge for you might not be common knowledge for others. You are effectively alienating new readers to the genre simply because you feel a few sentences here and there will be the end of your story. Even if they are aware of this common knowledge, getting them on the same page is also important. Because no one knows if your world follows the same rules or you created your own.

    Letters are not a novel either. So are you gonna stop using letters in your novel? Again, a story is more than just a sum of its parts.


    Do they? What is the thread depth of your current tire? There is more to tires than you think and you can spend days talking about different kind of tires and the pros and cons. Of course other than hard core enthusiasts, most people only care if its good tires or not.

    I know full well how lazy many authors can be. But as the saying goes, a poor craftsman blames his tools. Info dump is a tool. And should be used as such. Should you avoid using said tool if you can? YES! But that doesn't mean the occasional use of said tool is automatically lazy or somehow not a story anymore. All things in moderation.

    A lot of people ask why we have to learn to write english properly when famous authors ignore conventions like grammar and spelling or create their own words even. The reason is simple, you have to know the basics and what you are doing before you can start exploring on your own. Art is the same too, you first start learning to draw mechanically before you can start inventing your own style. It's more important that a person understands the tool they are using before being creative with it. The same applies with info dumps. If you know what you are doing, there is no problem.

    Right, because there are a lot of people misusing info dumps, doesn't mean that info dumps shouldn't be used. There are novels that do info dumps yet at same time have a ton of complicated world building and lore.

    IF you are forcing yourself to tell a story for every single little thing then yes.


    I was being symbolic, and some writing styles do try to embody all behavioral actions, even minor ones to get people more immersed with a character. Not to mention that bathroom visit might actually be important but the author does not wish to bring attention to it. Again, I am not saying you SHOULD infodump that information. I am saying that styles vary and use of tools vary.

    Plenty of renowned authors have used infodumps. Are you saying they did so unconsciously? That they should have stuck to short stories and technical manuals instead?

    If your advice was to avoid using info dumps if possible, that is one thing. But going into absolutes like that is a big, no-no.

    If you are not willing to debate every aspect, then what is the point? I assure you, I'd rather not waste time with long responses either. I have more important things to do as well. But I simply can't advocate for limiting people's ability to explore every tool in the toolbox. Authors improve through experience. If you leave tools untouched, you won't build up experience using them.

    And if you wish to block me for having a contradicting opinion to yours, I can't stop you. That is your choice.

    But I will say this, for an author, the most important thing is getting into the heads of others and trying to understand them, even if you may not agree with them. If you block everything you don't like, you are only limiting your world view and crippling yourself as an author.
     
  12. GDLiZy

    GDLiZy Wise Deepsea Mermaid

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2017
    Messages:
    2,915
    Likes Received:
    2,801
    Reading List:
    Link
    I found infodump to be extremely satisfying to read when it somehow tied into the situation at hand or had some hidden foreshadowing in it. For me, the best genres for info-dumping are sci-fi, or psychological.

    Chances are, if they read about sci-fi or psychological-focused story, then the readers would be very accepting about technical explanation/info-dumping.
     
  13. Twilight Fox

    Twilight Fox 【Foxy】【Ayayayay!】

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,968
    Likes Received:
    11,186
    Reading List:
    Link
    I am open to discussion, but I am not willing to read some smarter than thous 1 mile long diatribe on why I'm wrong and he's right. If he wants to call info dumping a tool, sure go ahead. Call it a tool. But at best it's a misused one that is the downfall of so many people, and at worst it takes good ideas and poorly executes them as a writer tries to tell a story by dumping information everywhere. For all his bluster about how good authors can use info dumps as a story tell tool, he has yet to produce any examples.
     
  14. NodiX

    NodiX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2017
    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    148
    Reading List:
    Link
    Discussing "correct" way of writing stories is as pointless as discussing politics. Especially on the internet. Everyone has different views and different way of doing things. What's best for someone can be completely different than the other person. Even if you're quoting Robert McKee, your opinions won't go through if the other party is consuming eastern novels/manga as their everyday habit.
     
  15. The Everdistant Utopia

    The Everdistant Utopia Honorary Maou | Part Time Writer | Crau's

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    10,079
    Reading List:
    Link
    /thread