The issue we have is that our interpretations of the word shallow are different. And the adjective shallow being subjective as it is, I don't think that we will go anywhere in this route of conversation. My shallow may not be your type of shallow, but what made me view it as shallow is still indeed here. Which was the point of my thread.
No. Our interpretation is exactly the same. You simply view its use in this context as an opinion and not a fact. But since you view your interpretation as different, then please do explain how it differs from mine
To begin with. Why is something shallow, bad? The whole definition to begin with is subjective. You can't call my shallow an opinion more than negate that it is a fact.
I usually use makeup when attending an event. I use lipstick so my lips don't look pale. I use powder so my oily skin isn't too visible. I think that simple makeup is enough to make me look fresher.
Well, most schools have regulations against make-up. They're not really uglier or anything without it. The pretty girls are still pretty. So I don't really understand why they insist on still doing it when they're going outside. My fat cousin does SO much make-up. She takes HOURS to get ready for anything! If you wanna look pretty, spend those hours losing weight you moron!! Even I look fucking prettier in a dress than you even when you've got your extensive make-up on!! Anyway, my mother almost never does makeup other than in super special occasions like Christmas or weddings (and even that's to the extent to some lipstick and some skin toner and nothing else) and she's still the prettiest among her three sisters who does make-up all the time. (Or maybe it's just because she's the youngest of them all...by a lot.) Anyway, is it just me or does people who you often see with make-up look a lot uglier and reddish without make-up? Are they just ugly so they use it or does it make them uglier inside? (not talking about a rhetorical inside) I don't know, it's just odd seeing someone without make-up who always has it on. They look...I don't know, like their faces are bruised or hurt? Like you shouldn't touch their face. While people who don't do it...well, they're normal. lol
The main reason is because it affects other's perception, creating a minimum courtesy, and increasing the wearer's confidence. Just like the difference in between a formal suit and a T-shirt, there is a minimum courtesy that you need to fulfill in order to gain the minimum respect of others when you meet with someone in the society. If you meet other people with sandals, T-shirt, and shorts while meeting with your country's president, other people would feel contempt for what you wear. Disregarding your background, reputation, or even ability, your name will become a lifetime joke because of such action. The same happened with the women's make-up. It is the basic courtesy to tell people that they want to show their best appearance to others and not to embarrassed their own group or the host that invited them. It also affects other people perception of you. If they perceive you as someone childish, it could change just by you wearing the make-up. Increasing your reputation in the society. Branded goods are one of the most effective tool to achieve this, since people would know your level roughly by calculating them. This will inevitably increasing the amount of respect of others to you without even doing anything. And in turn, it will increase your confidence. Confidence is a vital factor for you to be perceived better by others. A confident guy with a T-shirt would look better than a gloomy guy with a formal suit. If you wear something good, it will increase your confidence and creating a positive aura, which will further enhance your already good make-up.
I like that you ask why is something shallow bad, and then show a definition where it depicts exactly that. The word has negative connotations and cant be used positively. And where do you see that it is subjective? I don't see that at all. I can call it an opinion because that is exactly what it is. The definition of a fact is: "a piece of information presented as having objective reality." Ergo, an opinion can't be a fact. There is nothing factual about your claim
People have always pressured people weaker than themselves to conform to their ideals. Clothing, accessories, makeup, tattoo, piercings, changing your hair, contact lenses...Once it goes beyond basic necessity it's all shallow and that's the fun of it. You are free not to like it or not agree with it, but it won't stop others from doing it. We choose our adornments as an expression of who were are and/or who we want to be perceived as. Many of us get pleasure from it, which is an added bonus. Some people have additional reasons: To look more attractive to others, to make a specific impression - feminine, masculine, cute, cool, etc - to feel confident, to be accepted and so on. I'm not a fan of anything more than minimal makeup, but I don't have to wear it so it doesn't matter. If people want to use it to their own benefit more power to them.
In my experiences, Shallow is subjective. Take the venus statue for example. In the old days, the concept of a good body for women is what we call medium size, about 60kg. Nowadays, Korean beauty queen was fatshamed for weighing more than 50kg on 170+ height. Basing your perspective on the society norm without knowing why is shallow. But once you know why, you would be compelled to stick to a standard. As an example, we as humans are attracted to each other by first impressions, either face or body looks. What the hell is that impression based upon anyway? For me, I looked for a girl who is not too fat or skinny. And not just that, she has to be able to know how to eat healthy food and exercise. Why? I've seen people who breaks these rules, they tend to have problems having kids. Too fat and eating too much meat causes hormone imbalances in your body. Too skiny and strict vegan also does the same thing. As for the face thing, people who are easy on the eyes would be able to influence more people easily. Why? Let's face it, 80% of people just do things on a whim. This is where make up comes in. Are there stupid shallow girls who just want to control people by looking good and nothing else? Yes. But if the guy is not as shallow, he'd notice it in a heart beat. So the real answer is, the s Act of wearing make up has nothing to do with being shallow or not.
I don't understand how you aren't able to accept the fact of the world not being just black and white. The colours mix with each other, making countless gray colours. Volunteering, to me is also a shallow thing to do. We dont help other people because we 100% want to do it from the bottom of our hearts, a bit of those intentions are to sleep better at night or to just feel better about ourselves, to feel like we are doing something good for the world. There is no such thing as a white lotus in real life. We are humans. Is someone helping another person just to feel better about himself not something you would call shallow? I accept the shallowness of everything along the good parts as they are and move on, you should too. Thinking that it is not here, won't make it go away. As for your last barb, I am indeed wrong. It is something subjective I can't claim as a fact more than it is an opinion. Ehm... What do you consider to be silly and inconsequential? Can you claim it to not be subjective? You need to check your eyes then.
The words implementation is definitely subjective. My bad. But, that only strengthens the argument. It's an opinion, not a fact, precisely because the implementation is subjective.
Yeah. I stumbled at that part. The whole concept is subjective. That I see shallowness is a fact, that you consider it to be too is not. What we probably needed was that I don't view it as something negative but as something natural that most actions carry with them along with other things. I thought of the issue of makeup as shallow because of its potential to be a toxic activity. Not because of the act itself, which is not wrong even if it carries shallowness. P.S: As its already 2:41 AM here in Spain I fear that you will have to wait till tomorrow if we need to continue this conversation.
It's the same here. I don't think we need to continue, we already reached the end. You realised that it subjective. And for the fact and opinion part, we will have to agree to disagree
I'd like to point out that shallow is a very relative term to begin with. For example, even the physical attribute "shallow" such as "the water is shallow" is only relative to the person saying it. That is to say, the water being shallow for an adult may be quite high for an infant, and water that is shallow for an infant may be quite high for an ant. Shallow does not have a literal empirical definition thus relativity is important. The reason I mention this is because the other definition of shallow, such as when referring to a person's actions, opinions, or character, is also relative and is thus an opinion. In fact, shallow when used in this manner can only be an opinion and not fact because there are no empirical measurements that can be done to thus prove or confirm that it is in fact shallow. The reason behind this stems from what the act of labeling something as shallow implies. To say, "that person is shallow because they only care about looks and money" is done so only based on information that the person making the statement knows. Thus unless the person making the statement is inherently omniscient, it would be impossible for the statement "that person is shallow..." to be fact. Thus the statement made is an opinion based on what they know. This means that calling something "shallow" or something being "shallow" is not a fact but is relative, subjective, and an opinion. Even if in your opinion it is a fact, that doesn't make it a fact, that just makes your opinion wrong - and contrary to popular belief there is such thing as a wrong opinion. A wrong opinion is an opinion that is incorrect. To be incorrect is to be contrary to the facts, thus a wrong opinion is an opinion that is contrary to fact. I.e. the world is flat. Empirically, this opinion is wrong. Now this is not to say that all opinions can be correct or incorrect, because opinions can only be correct/incorrect if there is in fact an empirical way to know what correct is. Thus, scientific opinions can be correct or incorrect, but ethical or theological opinions cannot due to their inherent nature. Now the other topic brought up was about why shallowness has a negative connotation to it, or why shallowness is viewed as "bad". This has to do with what is being implied by classifying something as shallow. On one hand, it comes from a stance that a person is passing judgment on actions or intentions of other people, which automatically implies a superior-inferior relationship, that the person making the statement is in a position of superiority to be making claims or passing judgment. This is actually something that a lot of people do not understand and often do not realize that they are doing. They do not realize that from their position they hold superiority and choice in what role they wish to take, whereas the person being judged does not. The person making the statement "that is shallow", has the choice to a) not be involved and not say their opinion, b) be a bystander and watch the person being judged, or c) be the judge and make a judgement on the person. On the other hand, the person being judged only has one option: be judged. Even if they try and not be involved, the fact is they are still being judged. Thus, when you make a statement, even an implied statement such as "isn't wearing make-up shallow?" you are actually taking the role of a judge, and anyone who wears make up is thus being judged. This is why people who love make up or wear make up a lot more are more likely to be more offended by the statement than those who wear make up casually, because the statement is more of a judgment on them, than others. Now, I'm sure you will say "this was not my intention, I did not mean to offend", and that is in fact true. Very rarely are people truly malicious like that, but unfortunately it is not your intentions that matters, it is how people perceive it. And this is why connotation matters, because ultimately connotation is how people will perceive words being used. An example of this is skinny versus slender. Slender normally has a more seductive and attractive connotation to it, whereas skinny has an excessive connotation to it. To say someone is slender carries a connotation that they are healthy, fit, lovely. To say someone is skinny is to say they are bony, look malnourished, or need to eat more. Grandmother doesn't say "oh you look so slender, you're all skin and bones" she says "oh you look so skinny, you're all skin and bones". The same goes with the world shallow. Shallow is in fact very rarely ever used as something with a positive connotation attached to it. It always has a meaning of being inferior, or lesser than, and the fact that shallow is relative and based on opinions, makes it even negative. It is not just saying that a person is superficial or only cares about inconsequential things, but that a person is superficial or only cares about inconsequential things according to someone's judgment. Thus, it has a double negative connotation, not only does the word itself have a negative and even insulting meaning (that you are inferior, superficial, dimwitted or materialistic), but that the person making the statement is superior to the one being judged (that I am greater than thou, thus I can judge you, and thus my judgment matters). Once again, this may not be your intention, because very rarely do anyone on the internet know other people enough to have this level of hatred, loathing, and animosity towards others (strangers), rather this is how others perceive it and why it carries a negative connotation. This is a huge reason why so many celebrities end up becoming controversial and plastered all over the news for their tweets, because despite the best intentions, they cannot control how others view their words. Now I can understand what you mean by saying "why is being shallow a negative thing?". Caring about your looks, wanting to look nice, these are all very good and redeeming traits. When given a choice to be ugly or pretty, no one in their right mind would say ugly. Beauty is even more wonderful when people strive towards it and work hard for it, whether it is in personal grooming and hygiene, through physical fitness and good health, or through developing good taste in fashion and developing skills in applying make up. These are all admirable traits that no one in their right mind would insult or disagree with, and I'm sure you agree. Where the dissociation lies is in biased opinions or skewed views. For guys (but I'm not saying you in particular) judging girls wearing make-up, it is often out of hurt and a feeling of inferiority that they make these statements. "Oh she's prettier without make-up", "she's so shallow", "she looks like a slut" is a way of putting that person down in order to make themselves feel better. Why is she prettier without make up? Factually, the point of make-up is to make her prettier, so why make this statement? Because they put a disproportionate amount of value over perceived "naturalness"; they have a bias and add imaginary beauty based on qualities they cannot possibly know. To them, not wearing make-up equates to a girl next door, who is cute, kind, and polite, whereas make-up equates to shallowness, materialism, and vanity - despite the person being the exact same, just with make-up added. Other statements like "she looks like a slut" is only to demean or devalue the subject so that they feel better in themselves. They make these statements to make them feel better in themselves, because they know they don't stand a chance. These kinds of jealous statements are made by people who have given up on themselves so they want to bring others down with them. Girls are the same too, they'll make judgment of other girls for very similar reasons: out of jealousy and to make themselves feel better. In fact, it is often more severe among women because there is a competitive element added to it. Whereas guys are subconsciously judging things based on "do I have a shot with her or not?", for women it comes down to "we are both women, why is she better than me?". This competitive aspect of things is why the modern media is so toxic, and why many young girls suffer for self-esteem issues. It's not just in beauty either, but in mental health. There is a reason why studies show Instagram is detrimental to mental health, because you only see the beautiful lives people are living, and when you compare it to yourself it becomes depressing. Now in some cases, and this is more like your situation, the statement or question on "why people wear make-up, isn't that shallow?" it comes from simply not knowing, and you honestly just want a person's opinion. As a bystander looking in, I can understand your view because I can see both sides of the subject, but for other people, especially those involved, they feel like it is an attack on them thus the quite vocal replies. My stance on this matter is, it differs for every person. The pursuit for beauty is a beautiful thing, but it is the effort and steps involved that make it beautiful, not the final product. A person that works out, eats healthy, and dresses well is truly beautiful, not only in a physical sense but in terms of character as well. A person that takes shortcuts through dieting fads, plastic surgery, and following trends tend not to be as beautiful or admirable - why? I think the answer is obvious, because this kind of beauty is what you and I would agree as "shallow". It can be a fine line, really. Make-up, just like any other form of fashion, is a statement about yourself. Those that only follow trends end up looking like followers, whereas those that put the effort into developing their own style really do stand out as more beautiful, more unique, and more confident. But ultimately, everyone has their own level of skill and proficiency on the subject, everyone has their own taste, and everyone has their own reasons for doing so. Why do some people like tattoos, whereas others don't? Why do some people like goth, punk, or metal style whereas others don't? It often comes down to personal preference, but a key motivator in all of this is that it makes them feel better about themselves, at least for a little while. Whether it is in make up, tattoos, working out, or getting piercings, everyone wants to feel better about themselves, even if it is just a little bit. That's my rant on the subject, and I know that now that I'm finished this, the post is basically dead, but I wanted some of my opinions and insights to be posted in case someone else may be reading. Even if make up might not be healthy for the skin, even if dyeing your hair may not be good for the scalp, even if tattoos are permanent, or piercings might damage the body, we just want to feel better about ourselves. And this saddens me, that we can't just feel good about ourselves but need to look for external ways to make us feel better about ourselves, it really does. Unfortunately, living on this planet is a competition. It is a competition for careers, for wealth, for family, and for happiness. It is not enough to be happy with what you got, you want others to know that you're happy, and you want to know that you're happier than other people. How can there be happiness if there is no sadness to compare it to?
I think it depends on the person? Some people wear it because of social pressure, others wear it because it makes them feel better, and there are people who just wear it because it feels like second nature to them. I kind of see it as "war paint", it gives me this feeling of strength, like a second layer of confidence that you find when wearing clothes that make you look sharp or after a hard day at the gym (what i'm trying to say it makes someone like me feel good about myself) and also it's a nice self care routine, you're investing time in yourself. Make up is recognized as a beauty enhancer, and honestly, it does its job quite well, I can't even begin to tell you how much cover up has saved me from awkward zits and bags under my eyes. Everyone has their reasons for liking or disliking it, but there's no universal answer as to why someone should or shouldn't wear make up. As long as if makes you happy, why not?
First i have to ask. What do you mean by make up? Its in general make up to maintain our skin with slight colour or make up in particular to enhance looks??? OR excessive use of make up? [Edit: personally i think make up is a necessity. Because you have to use make up to protect your skin. I never use excessive make up. Just something to keep your skin moist. Rarely use lipstic if not required] Dont use word Asian please. Thats plural. There are just two country with excessive use of make up. Excessive make up cause that is a yes. What yeezys means??
I think you should find an alternative word for "shallow". If "shallow" used as Adjective, because "shallow" have negative connotation. Its semantics things. Use a better word with less negative connotation please. Edit : example use small-minded