Discussion Eastern vs Western fantasy power system

I like both, though each area's power systems are really strongly influenced by their area's culture.

Specifically, according to cultural theory, the West is generally more direct and non-hierarchical, whereas the East favors indirectness, face and hierarchy. And this shows. Especially in the magic systems; Mana VS Qi. Magecraft vs Cultivation.

While Mages do need experience and in some cases, a lot of practice to grow their magical capacity to cast big spells, nothing is stopping them from casting spells above their experience grade. It's the same energy all the way. Likewise, the systems of spells and such in (modern) western fantasy tend to be developed much like science, with a clear and (relatively) commonly known comprehensive system as to how things work and where the peak is... And if not widely known, then at least strictly defined as to it's possibilities and methods of function. Western magic and mages tend to be held in a fairly tight framework as a result.

Cultivation on the other hand relies very strongly on knowing your place in the pecking order, in the sequence of growth. Everything, and I mean everything is ranked, and despite almost everything being laid down and defined to the atomic level, the systems are still shrouded in mysticism - Rarely is it really taught, but instead it's more valued that people experience things that are otherwise known.
This, contrarily, then leads to people being far less constrained by the framework of the known power system, which is also why so many Cultivation geniusses can do things 'above their ranks' despite ranks being so emphasized.

So yeah, magic-wise, the difference is one of Learning VS Understanding. And I very much appreciate both takes on the subject of personal growth, and the use of power. That said, being a western person, I favor the western systems. Because I like definitions. I like being able to experiment properly, with exact units or at least well-defined concepts. I prefer the idea of being able to use what you've learnt to make something new, over comprehending something everyone else basically already knows.

EDIT: Another interesting thing I've found; Western Magic is based on its restrictions in terms of power, but on its possibilities in terms of options and personal development. Eastern Cultivation is based on its possibilities in terms of power, and its restrictions in terms of options and personal development. Ironically enough.

EDIT#2 on western Magic: It's clearly defined... until it isn't. As in, it's clearly defined until it suddenly gets a jump to what you'd classify as literal god-tier magic, as commonly found in mythology. Then all bets are off.

 

Thats a lot of forced similarities, i see western power systems as the LITRPG systems and eastern as cultivation

Western is more defined and focuses on reaching the peak of your potential and then maximizing what you can do inside your limits while eastern focuses on seemingly endless growth, eastern seems better because its more grounded on cause and effect while eastern can always say there is a new power level that renders all the previous stuff meaningless

 

The ranks which don't matter for shit, you mean? Kek. The power systems are strictly speaking about one thing and one thing only: Realistic vs bs. The western ones aren't necessarily hard systems, but they are internaly consistent, realistic. The eastern ones are broken on just about every level. Witts, experience and skill matter much more in a linear system with defined rules. The eastern ones are "bigger nuke wins unless the author says no".

It is MUCH easier to write a good novel with the western systems. The biggest reason is scaling, certainly, but other things play into it as well.

I could trash half the responses here, but would take like half the evening and I srsly can't be arsed to deal with every ignorant person on NU.

But the biggest offenders:
1: Luck vs whatever: The major offender are the eastern novels in this regard. Skill simply doesn't matter shit if a person in a more favourable position doesn't fool around or someone lucked hard enough (usually its the MC btw).
2: Scaling: Western novels scale much more linearly, making their economies and societies more realistic. Less pressure on the suspension of disbelief is always nice. This is also one of the reasons why in almost every novel on NU every NPC is a complete tard, and most PCs as well. It is required to make these worlds work since they are easily broken and abused.
3: Morality: The western ones are just as abusive as the eastern ones, relatively speaking. Since characters are less stupid and consequences exist morals ( a beautiful social construct, explained by the theory of evolution btw) do matter to an extend when harming society on a large scale is simply self destructive. No "lulz, im going to realm n+1 now". No ignoring the balance of powers because you can singlehandedly wreck a faction just by ascending once.
4: Hard vs Soft: Doesn't matter. Execution is the big oof for eastern novels. And there they just fail. Even the oh so praised novels by Er Gen are a moderate dumpsterfire in this regard. Again and again eastern authors have shown that the emotional payoff and flash action is more important to them than consistency. If consistency doesn't exist stakes don't matter and a novel might as well be used as toilet paper.

 

I'm honestly not convinced that there is any clear distinction between "western" or "eastern" power systems, that seem to me far too much like arbitrarily trying to put everything in neat little categories when there is far too much variation and overlap to consider.

 

That is actually a very good point. You're right to say the power system is essentially the same:
It is the same as comparing the eastern sword and western sword. Both are used for the same purpose, yet very different in both culture and technique.

The main point of this thread is like to question why is blacksmith of the past made eastern swords and western swords completely different? What is the main factor that made such difference, is the topic of this thread xd

 

I think this is generally related to Western's literature international standard and poor standard on a majority of eastern's novels.
Western's novel community is far more sophisticated and bigger market compared to the eastern counterpart.
Most eastern novel are sold only within the country and not meant to be for western audience. This also results in why most eastern novels don't have much formal english translation, compared to western novels that actively trying to reach bigger market to several countries.
To make things worse, In eastern community, amateur novels and professional novels don't have a separate entity and filter. Especially in webnovels. It is up to readers to find out which novels are professionals through the author's name. So, it is only natural the industry's standards are falling, since new amateurs would have the same promotional rights to new professionals. Most readers are not a good judge to objectively valued a novel's quality, after all.

 

Partially, certainly. But if we take cultivation novels as an example: Its near impossible to make a good novel out of these tropes. The western approach just makes it way way easier to write a decent novel.

 

meh to differentiate pro and amateur on one aspect is it published by common publisher or not~ on west kinda easy cuz book for entertainment industry exist since long time ago, while on asia who know~ sure there also other aspects need to be considered to differentiate pro and amateur~
for wn that another thing cuz compared with traditional book industry it still too young~ as tech and society advance who know what kind of criteria will determine pro or amateur on future~

cn business imo way ahead western wn business~ pay per chappy or wordcount make those amateur writer may live via writing at least pocket money or side job while on english wn side hmm should this cat said pitiful? on bad side of coin for cn the copypaste or so so to trash lvl novel kinda rampant~ weird enuf some common cat still pay it cuz kinda cheap on sense while english translated one fuming trash here and there~ wrong target perhaps lul~

anyway the answer is simple~
imo culture is different lul~
mythology, society and religion that influence common cat fantasy affect da creator fantasy on past~
as for modern one hmm da advance of education exposure perhaps~
meh Individual taste~

 

For some of the things mentioned I can't say they are exclusively west or eastern. I'm pretty sure systems of faith existed in the east in some way or form.

 

Western, the systems are easy to understand and consistent. I am more interested in detailed, creative uses of superpowers or magic then using more brute force or being told they are magically more skilled. Most Chinese/Korean and some Japanese novels do clearly mix them separating the magic into nine circles and then god-level after that which can be enjoyable and create a detailed and versatile system which is also very enjoyable. Eastern systems tend to be too much though I like wuxia and some xuanhuan as they usually don't have infinitely many stages as requires to keep the story going. Also I always liked Greek and Norse mythology so there is that. I found how human the Greek ones were quite interesting and repulsive at the same time as they acted with human emotion and desire without the same restraints brought upon us by powerlessness and consequences, they were very human and so power corrupted them. I won't say the Norse gods were good but they are better and have rather strong sense of honor and morals, they were also human-like but kept to their beliefs much better. And Cthulhu is Cthulhu, enough said.

 

I dunno, most Japanese stuff I have seen didn't seem to care about those concepts at all for the most part.

You sure you aren't confusing Chinese Fiction with Eastern Fiction?

When I think of Eastern powers, the first thing that comes to mind are the 5 elements of wood, fire, water, metal and earth. And the 2nd thing is the Ki from Dragonball (or Chakra from Naruto, they're similar), which has next to nothing to do with the Qi in Xianxia.

So I dunno, I don't like your categorization much I guess.

 

For me, Cultivation stuff seems to be a lot more focused internally than externally, which is the opposite of Western one.

I think that there is a lot of potential waiting to be unearthed from the Dao Comprehension and self-reflection moments of breakthrough, but it is hard to capture that moment; usually, the author just skipped it in favour for the fight scene.

 

This is actually a very good point. If we're talking about the traditional japanese superpowers, then the closest thing to them is an exorcist/Omnyoji in a religion called Omnyodo.
The strongest known exorcists in the history of Japan is Master Abe no Seimei. If you watch anime/read manga often enough, I'm sure you've heard the name at least once. You can treat him basically as a demi-god or Merlin in the European myth.
Exorcists are essentially a Qi user, but more reliant on sealing and formation techniques. You can treat them as a formation master.
However, exorcists also heavily reliant on a local God. Their main power actually comes from the contract or the special lineage from a powerful God or Fiend. Without the contract or the bloodline, then the local God would refuse to help, rendering exorcists to only rely on talisman or external tools.

So, if you really want to categorize them, then the most suitable is Qi or Heaven category, since they are basically a spell-caster that heavily reliant on external power, formation, and bloodline. Their power have a lot of bindings and rules within them.

 

I will preface this by saying i am not trying to insult you in any way, but attempting to educate about chinese fantasy ideas that are quite foreign to Western audience.

I think the issue is that you are severely misunderstanding Chinese fantasy...

To start, i don't think scifi can't count as a fantasy power...thats just a genre which absolutely exists although likely not as popular

Genetics - spiderman counts as sci-fi to me.

Dragons and other chinese specific mythical creatures exist in chinese fantasy too
ex: the 4 most well known ones being, qinglong, zhuque, baihu, xuanwu (japanese name might sound more familar = seiryu, suzaku, byakko, genbu)
Less known here but equally important: qilin, taotie, kunpeng, hundun, baize, etc

Mana/elemental
You had to have heard of the Chinese five elements before (wind, fire, water, earth, metal)

How does mana not = qi ? They are both powers you have to "feel" or absorb, or make use of from your surroundings, and use as the basis behind "skills"

Elves should really be under genetics imo

Chinese also has fantasy regarding animals and plants demons (collectively named yao) . Depending on what you read, you may have come across things like "fox demons, snake demons, etc. This is equivalent to saying "tree spirit" or a talking tree or something

Faith

*** IMPORTANT***
IF IT IS A CULTIVATION NOVEL WE ARE TALKING DAOISM
***IMPORTANT***

I think many people here don't realize the difference between Chinese folk religion, daoism, and buddhism.

But China is a bit unique in that these three seperate "religions" along with Confuciusiom are all merged together. People generally believe in peices of them all at once. And yes , Chinese Folk religion (equivalent to pagan religion) is very, very important and still relevant today , almost 55% of the country still pratices this religion.

To give an idea of how these religions are merged, during mythological fantasy tv shows that feature buhhist and daoist in heaven, in the sky, there is a Buddhist temple just floating there, and some other area of the sky, the jade emporers palace floats there ( yes, the jade emporer is a daoist god). This image is to compare and contrast with a western idea of heaven (one place right?)

The best world wide known example of a buddhism fanatsy novel, is one of China's "4 great literature" Journey to the West. If you compare that with the standard cultivation novels you read on here, the differences are very, very obvious.

So, body tempering, dantian/qi are both daoism concepts, they are not separate ideas.


Mental/soul,
All the things you mentioned, they absolutely exist in Chinese fantasy, just that this is a bit 'hidden'
Im not sure how people translate this in cultivation novels, but I'm sure you will recognise the things where : someone will cast out there mental powers (神识) to detect if if there are people around, or treasures in the ground, or whatever. This 神识 can be used to move things (telekinesis), to send your voice far away (telepathic) , create mental illusions, mental attacks, etc. This is a different type of power from qi, which resides in your dantian, but they COEXIST rather than one or the other.
It may be it's a bit hard to tell while reading translations (im not that familiar with those anymore) Usually it's what the characters who use to be really really strong but then reborn as a weak noob cultivater rely on, since they have no qi in the body. But the 神识 is power of their soul/mind, since their minds is the same, that power stays.

FAITH

Do you really think Chinese don't have gods??
(Serious question here)

Chinese creation mythology actually DOES exist, and there is a ENTIRE prehistoric mythological time period that focused entirely on gods and demons. A very famous novel being Fengshen Yanyi ( Investure of the Gods , from the 16th century).
The gods and demon genre is called 神魔although we dont have angels and devils like western knows them, but saints, gods, ancestor worship are very real things. But if you read only daoist cultivation novels specifically, you will only barely touch upon this genre. Combined with the fact it's impossible to understand without a background knowledge of these folk lore every single person knows on some level.

I wouldn't count gravity, fire, water as natural law, i think these should stay as elementals/mana.

To conclude, while yes the fantasy tropes are not exact copies, but there are direct equivalents.

I'm not sure what you mean about professions though. There are totally professions in Chinese fantasy, the whole point of having a Profession is to specialize in something and there are many MCs who DO have a specific profession related to their cultivation even staying within the Daoist type of cultivation novels popular here

 

Ohh I have never known there is a separate myth beyond Daoism and Buddhism in Chinese folklore. Rarely I've seen those in fantasy novels. Honestly speaking, my categorization is not really meant to define, but more like separating the obvious examples that I've seen so far.

Though, it's less about the generalization, but more about differentiating on what is the source of power in most fantasy novels.
Sci-fi and fantasy is separate genre, yes. But you can't deny sci-fi also exists in fantasy novels. Imo, I think superhero vs villain is basically a fantasy novel.

Although Qi and Mana is similar, but the concept the entirely different. Magician can't store mana, while Cultivators could store Qi.
Magician requires magic formation to fully use mana and they can't absorb mana into their own body. You can treat it as if they are borrowing mana from the atmosphere, rather than spending their own energy to cast spells.
The mana would go through their brain and directly injected to the magic rune that you casted.
This however has a limit, because mana is very harmful to the body. Over-using your brain in casting spells would results in mana addiction, which basically requires constant mana injection to the brain by casting spells or living in a mana dense location.
Failure to inject mana while you're addicted would results in mental breakdown, going berserk, or even death.
Magician also doesn't need to breakthrough. All they need is to understand how magic works and upgrade their magic rune from the 1st circle to the next circle. The more circle of the magic, the more powerful the magic. This is why knowledge is very important to magician.

However, you're right that I'm misunderstanding eastern fantasy because I'm only reading mostly cultivation novels. xD I guess I need to widen my reading genre.

 

While i agree with some over cliched cultivation novels going crazy with the numbers, (for some reason they are very popular here though??) ... And I assure you there are many with more normal levels...

To be fair, a stick of incense WAS a historical way to measuring time...

This is just more knowledge lost to Western readers...

一年有十二月 1 year = 12 months
一月有五周 1 month = 5 weeks
一周有六日 1 weeks = 6 days
一日有十二时辰 1 day = 12 hour (2hrs each)
一时辰有四刻 1 hour = 4 quarters (30min each)
一刻有三盏茶 1 quarter = 3 cups of tea (10min each)
一盏茶有两柱香 1 cup of tea = 2 sticks of incense (5 min each)
一柱香有五分 1 stick of incense = 5 parts (1min each)
一分有六弹指 1 part = 6 finger snaps (10sec each)
一弹指有十刹那 1 finger snap = 10 instants (1sec each)
一刹那就是一秒钟 1 instant = 1second

 

I think maybe we just had different ideas of sci-fi...i was thinking of technology based powers (like you said iron man)
But a superhero like superman is more fantasy, so i guess it could be both

Technically, no one specifically calls it "chinese folk lore religion" besides in studies and such, it's so ingrained in the culture, that it's just there.... And shows up everywhere

The 4 core concepts of this folk religion you have seen before but do not realize as folk religion, because it has been mixed so much but:

1. The reason why when prople ascended and the clan members still depend on them and treat like gods (1. Bc they are now, but 2. Ancestor worship)

2. The Heavens as the transcendent source of moral meaning (eg. Confucius believed the heavens were the supreme source of goodness)
You may have heard of the "mandate of heaven" for Chinese emporers, that's folk religion

3. Qi (气 ) as the energy that animated the universe

4.Bao Ying (報應) Moral / Cosmic Retribution (same concept as karma but with a different origin)

Along with these :
Destiny and Fate (命运 ， 缘分)

HunPo (魂魄) Usually translated as just soul, like you know when MC kills someone and destroys their body but then their soul flies out and he kills that too? Or when someone is missing part of the soul and so they're mentally retarded or something? Or when people say 3 hun 7 po ( not sure how it's usually translated...), Also based on folk religion.

A even more minor example : you may or may not have noticed a lot of characters have surname Xuanyuan - usually inspired by a famous character from folk lore mythology

I guess it's just one of the things that is missed and ignored because it's not understood by other cultures. If you are more interested the Wikipedia articles aren't that bad and pretty informative.

I'm just curious though, are you basing the mana usage from a specific source? I'm asking because it sems very specific...
i have read fanatsy novels before where mana could be stored in gems, and thought this was a more common thing (ex: Black Jewels by Anne Bishop)

I guess I'm also more confused about what you're trying to compare now...

How western gods differ from eastern gods...?
How magic and qi is different ...?
How western demons are different from eastern demons...?
And etc?

 

Oh yeah, more traditional Japanese stories that work with Shintoism and stuff feel closer to those concepts indeed~

I was trying to think mainly of more modern day stories though... >.>

 

As an overall vibe, I prefer Western fantasy, in power scaling/progression, I prefer Eastern's enlightenment or something. I like how it sometimes goes philosophical.

 

In western stories you don't hear much about mana as a concept but rather than absorbed magic is something you can do or learn, mana as an actual unit of measurement mainly from Japanese fiction which popularized the litrpg thing.