Discussion Eastern vs Western fantasy power system

What i mean is western magic they use mana (or whatever) And say they chant spells to use magic. Obviously the mana fuels that spell. And usually a beginner magician would not be able to cast high level magic skills without "training" . BUT. What are they training exactly? This is usually glossed over in western fanatsy. There has to be more to training in magic then "reading and learning how to pronounce new spells" So, my personal belief is they are training the amount of mana they can control or use. When they are able to control a larger amount of mana is how they advance from beginner spells to higher magic spells.

With daoist cultivation novels, the cultivator is similarly training to increase the amount of qi ("mana") they can control and use. The only difference is that cultivators store that qi inside their body, while magicians gather and use it from the air around them as needed.

So even though western magic is not specifically assigning numbers, essentially that is still what is happening. Eastern magic is just more specific about it, so it may give the feeling of something different while i feel the core the is same.

 

Yes. Although mana cannot be stored directly within the body, but mana can be stored in a lot of non-living object, mostly in a crystal form. People usually called them Magic gems/crystals. Magic gems not only work as a storage, but could also work as a mini-processor as well. Magic wood is also one of the best conductor for magic to cast spells, so that the magician could control the mana on the atmosphere a lot easier (Witches' broom are made from it). Magic wood + Magic gems would produce a Magic staff, which is the staple for a formal magician.
Another important tool is the magic scroll. Magic is essentially a rune language that is able to interact with mana, so even if you just saying in your mouth, it could affect the surrounding mana. Magic scroll is essentially a written form of a rune language. A bunch of magic scroll bulked into one and you will have a Magic tome or Magic book.

If you ask me why it is very specific, this is basically a generalization or the well-accepted norm of western magic. It is a cross-culture from all of western culture. Mostly European like Celtics folklore or Greek's mythology. Ofc, the author could always be flexible and change the specifics, but generally, most western authors would still use the same norm in handling magic.

How western gods differ from eastern gods...?
The main difference is: In western culture, a mortal would never be able to become Gods, while in eastern culture, a mortal could become a God just by going against the heaven and cultivate.
The only way to break the binding of mortal is to essentially die, while having a lot of people deified your name. Faith is the key to achieve apotheosis in Western culture. That said, you can no longer walk within the mortal realm once you've become a 'God'.

How magic and qi is different ...?
There are three main difference:
- Mana cannot be stored inside the body, while Qi can be stored within the body.
- Magician requires spellcasting to use mana, while Cultivator doesn't need to spell any language to use Qi. Magician is like a formation master in Eastern fantasy, because they are essentially borrowing the mana from the atmosphere or external items to cast spells. Very similar to Formation master that requires catalyst and many spirit stones to cast their formations. That said, it doesn't mean that cultivators don't use any kind of spellcasting or sealing techniques. It's just Qi are more versatile and flexible to use.
- Mana is very harmful to the body and has a lot of side effects, while Qi is generally safe. Only a very specific kind of Qi is harmful, like death qi or poison qi.
Spellcasting requires a lot of concentration and mental energy. When the mental energy is depleted, which results in over-worked brain or magic circuit, then it is called as Mana exhaustion. If the mana is out of control, then the mana could potentially ingested into the body temporarily. Just like radiation.
Ingesting mana within the body would results in Mana poisoning. If it happens in the brain and a long period of exposure, then it will be called as Mana addiction.
When the mana is ingested too much, then the body would mutate to become elemental, demonic, petrified, or monster, which is called as Mana corruption.
People with mana addiction will become more and more prone to Mana corruption.
Warlock/Witch is someone that specialized in controlling Mana corruption to achieve transcendent power by using demonic contract, sacrifice, or physical transplants from other species.
Only when the magician has a specific bloodline that is strong enough to resist mana corruption, like Dragon's bloodline or Descendants of the Gods, then the magician able to fully utilize mana as their own and store the mana inside the body. Using the mana from inside the body would not require any spellcasting and freely conjure any spells without any restriction as long as the mana is well-supplied.

P.S. Mana and Qi is different, but nowadays, a lot of people started to mix the two into a similar energy, where magician would be able to store mana just like Qi does. Some even treating mana as mental energy that is sourced from the souls. In the end, it is only a fiction concept, so it's natural that it will change overtime. xd

How western demons are different from eastern demons...?
The key difference in between western demons and eastern demons is that western demons cannot freely walk in the mortal realm. They require some sort of contract, specific rule, or medium to enter the mortal realm. While, Eastern demons is anything not natural and harmful to human beings is called as demons. Demonic beasts, demonic plants, demonic cultivators, etc.
Demons in western culture is akin to Hell-like creature, like imp, devils, succubus, etc. Demons always have a desire to control the human realm since ancient times, which is why they always try to tempt humans to make a contract with them.
For example: Devils are one of the demonic species that specialized in whispering destructive thoughts in human heart, which is called Devil's whisper.

 

That seems more like an assumption rather than part of the story. Rather they do speak contrary often enough. It also probably wouldn't work with several western stories where they learn and use a new powerful spell immediately, magic cannot be separated from them, if magic can be stolen or given than it is permanently lost and can't be relearned, magical ability is set at birth, and (the most common one) it is an expression of supernatural willpower on the natural world.

 

I guess I'm just trying to give some sense of logic to magic, but if the only thing separating low level magic and high level magic is different spells, so the only thing you have to learn is what the spells are, why would people start from the the bottom? If there is no other difference, what separates difficult magic with easy magic spells? There obviously has to be something different.

Qi can also be stolen or lost or permently destroyed too. There are many cultivation techniques to steal other people's qi. You can willingly give up your qi to other people (transplant the dantian). You can also destroy someone's qi ( destroy the dantian).
Your ability to use qi is also set at birth. That's why there are so non-cultivators as background. You can be born with a high or low affinity for qi.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence though o.o

 

i wasnt actually trying to ask those questions. I got confused on what this question for this post was. Like did you want to take two things , and talk about how they are similar or how they are different, or both? In a broad sense i would say they are the same. Down to the specific details, of course they will have different names for magic systems, demons, gods, etc
I guess i will just talk about both because I'm just confused and both sides make sense and then you may understand what i mean.

I was actually wondering because personally i have never come upon a fantasy novel with mana addiction and having to constantly inject mana to your brain or die. I'm sure it exists, but i was wondering based on what did it becomes the "norm". Admittedly i haven't been following western fantasy novels as much as i use to, so maybe all the magic books being published now has this thing? Or it always existed and i just never picked up those books?

But to continue...

The encompassing term to refer to Chinese fantasy as a whole is Xuanhuan (玄幻). This is literally the "fantasy genre"

What differentiates xianxia from everything else is specifically immortality.

It may look very similar, because Chinese fantasy is basically daoist and Chinese folk lore inspired, but in the broader xuanhuan genre, the characters are not focused on immortality. The best and probably most well known xuanhuan novel here is Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation (Mo Dao Zu Shi) (and yes its bl but just to pick easy examples.

Are the characters cultivating? Yes. Do they have things like a Gold Core(jindan)? Yes. But can they acheive immortality? NO.
They cultivate (train in magic) but there is no mention or focus on acheiving immortality.

Why i say this is what people need to compare western fantasy with and not xianxia?

While true, the whole purpose of cultivation novels is to become gods. It would makes no sense to compare this specifc genre of fantasy (xianxia) to the broader whole of western fantasy.

Disregarding xianxia, how else can people become gods?
Through worship.
The common people set up a temple for whatever and whoever, and if enough people become your follower, you may become a god.
Returning to the mortal realm...well, you could certainly be banished from heaven and reborn as a human again. You can possess a object or human to return. But normally you can't just randomly descend whenever you feel like.

To argue with your point: You say western can't return, but the greek gods certainly could. Godly Possession is also certainly a thing.
You can be banished from heaven (although no reincarnation?). But CN also has a hell. You will not see this in standard xianxia novels. But it exists. You will see this a lot in relevant xuanhuan novels.

1. Mana cannot be stored inside the body
I think this is really the main difference? A rather small point to focus on though, if you ask me.
2. Cultivation doesn't need spellcasting?
Well yes, specifically xianxia doesn't but i assure you, casting spells based of language absolutely exists. Ex. Taoism and buddhism both have spirtual chanting, that, in fantasy is amplied to have a more magical effect (very similar to spellcasting)
3. I'm not sure why you think qi is safe? Nor would I agree with your definition of "harmful to the body" I would say inherently both are safe except in cases of overuse or abuse , as is true about all things. You can absolutely overuse qi. At worst, you eternally die (魂飞魄散) , meaning your soul is eternally gone. No chance of reincarnation. Less extreme, you shatter your dantian (can't use magic anymore), go crazy and become corrupted/turn into a devil ("mana corruption")(走火入魔) , your body explode and die (包体而亡) , overwhelm and break your meridians ("mana circuits") (废筋脉) , etc
Warlock/witch = controls corrupted/dark magic? Devil cultivators (魔修)
Special bloodlines or demigods that give you super special magic powers? Those exists.

1. Demons cannot freely walk in the mortal realm.
I will say this will depend on what type of fantasy, and will also require a redefinition of your idea of "eastern demons"
Besides humans (ren 人) these are the usual other races: natural born Gods (shen 神) , Devils (mo 魔) , Demons (yao 妖 )
Your examples of succubus, imps, devils, these are Devils 魔。 Your example of demonic beast and plants are Yao 妖. CN makes a distinction between these while Western usually don't.
To further on, devil cultivators(魔修) IS NOT a Devil (魔) . In the same way you would not say a dark wizard is a demon, they are human race.
Demon cultivators (妖修) on the other hand, are not human race, or they are no longer human race.
Simply speaking, CN has 3 separate realms (god, human, devil). Talking about just Devil (魔), as the correct equivalent, they are usually not free to walk about the human world and can only ever through possession, summon ritual, a loophole, breaking over, etc. Exactly the same.
Demons (妖) may sometimes have their own separate realm, but can also just exists in the human world. They are not inheriently 'evil' like Devils (魔).
Example: A flower can cultivate and gain a conscious (flower sprites?). They are 妖 not 魔

What i would consider the western equivalent of 妖 : any magical race not human but not a evil devil as specified above. So, elves, dwarfs, mermaids, half animal people, whatever. These very commonly coexist with humans in western fantasy too.

And this specific example you gave: "Devils are one of the demonic species that specialized in whispering destructive thoughts in human heart, which is called Devil's whisper"
A exact cn equivalent, which DOES exist in cultivation novels, and you had to have come across before, the 心魔. Literal word for word translation : "heart demon". It's also occasionally translated as internal demons.
That description you gave? That is exactly what a 心魔 is. It is not figurative. They form from negative emotions and lures you to turn to evil. When they grow powerful enough or you succumb, they gain physical body or take over your body.

If you have to say what makes each cultures fantasy different? Religion
But i would argue the fundamental concepts are the same. Just the very , very specifics are different..

 

That is actually a very good point! Immortality and Religion is basically what differentiate them all indeed.
And you're absolutely right about the fundamental is essentially the same. Although the specifics are different, but most readers won't really care about it, just like what you say about Mana can't be stored is a small point of the world building.

I see, I see. I have an incorrect view about demons in Eastern fantasy. Now that you say it that way, it does eerily similar.
In western culture, we call those elves and dwarfs as Demi-human or basically magical races. The way they say 'demons' have a negative connotation in English, so I guess that's why I have the misunderstanding. I guess demons are actually a lot closer to magical beings or the Japanese would call them, Ayakashi or fiend.

 

To be completely honest, I've almost never seen mana used in western fantasy other than in cases of an author drawing inspiration from games.
If anything I see it just as often if not more so from eastern stories, especially japanese ones and again that is often in connection with gaming culture.

 

Yeah, your post really illustrates how it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to group all the Eastern fantasy concepts together. Japanese fantasy, for instance, doesn't do any of what you described. To be fair, I'm not sure that grouping Western fantasy together either because they tend to be based on such different sources as well.

This is because these stories are based on different things. Back in the beginning, old school fantasy stories were based on myth and folklore. Modern Western fantasy tends to be either based on this older material with some influence from tabletop roleplaying games. The most popular of these is Dungeons and Dragons, and notably, it doesn't have a mana system. Also, talking about magic points isn't narratively interesting so writers will talk about casting spells in terms of physical or mental exertion.

Japanese otaku novels on the other hand are based primarily on video games; primarily JRPGs. The writers of these books tend not to be very good so they don't have particularly good writing instincts so they'll use story mechanics, like magic points, that don't really work in written fiction. Older Japanese fantasy novel don't do this, and it's not a coincidence that they tend to be a lot better as well.

 

They don't necessarily start from low to high and some don't even have classifications. Qi can be stolen but the ability to train it usually can't. The ability to use qi can be set but not the amount you can use. Other than these things mana tends to focus more on reality warping than producing straightforward physical phenomenon.

 

Where is this idea of mana not being able to be stored in the body coming from anyway?, since I'm pretty sure I've come across plenty of stories where it actually is possible.
Mana in fiction isn't a strictly defined thing, it is something that varies depending on what the author wants it to be, and in some cases are almost completely identical to qi other than the naming.

 

I don't know, but I just get that vibe from reading various classic novels like Shakespeare. Magician doesn't actually have mana inside their body, like witches do in ancient times.
Only when games or classic RPG becomes popular that mana has become a harmless energy.
But, the spellcasting is still exist even if the mana is supplied from the body.

But you're right that mana is not well-defined and flexible enough to let the author do their thing. It is a fiction-based energy after all.

 

Thing is though, those older examples are not mana to begin with, it is anachronistic to use it for things that far back.
What most people refer to as "mana" is simply "magic points" which is largely a modern invention mostly meant for games as a way to quantify magic to the player, it is possibly also borrowing the name from a polynesian concept, which still wouldn't apply to ancient or medieval europe.

Also there is plenty of magic in western fiction that do not involve spellcasting the way you make it out to be, just the same way as how there is spellcasting in eastern fiction as well, this has little to nothing to do with it being western or eastern.

 

its actually more Taoism cuz they talk about Da Dao and Tian Dao a lot, its the Great Dao or the Heavenly Dao Dao means Path

 

Qi is not from their body its from the outside drawn to the inside like when u eat food

 

Wow, this is very long ago and I am of course very very lost.


Yes I agree with you that qi comes from outside of the human body, air you breathe and food you eat, and gets coverted into something the humans can use to do stupid shits like ki blast, inner ki strike and etc etc.

What lost me is how OP puts it in here.

I thought you mean ether? Not the chemical compound ether, as in Odi, the origin energy/ world energy that cannot be stored in the human body. Only to be converted during magical formations to usable mana, like cracking a petroleum into diesel, and used for their purposes?

Normally the human body has something like mental prowess/ capacity to wield the mana to do some shits, so I thought that there are in cases where they store some mana as reserve fuels to idk, power jump, power run, teleport or simple fireballs? While I know there are storage devices outside the body, and mana poisoning occurs as the mana clashes with most of the human functions due to us not adapting to it (even though many many generations of humans are born in the mana/ ether filled world), there should still be a threshold for humans to handle mana? Or is mana radioactive?

Ps. Apologies for necro-ing a seven month old thread, just feel like asking.

 

Np, thx for reading the thread.
Yes. the concept of odi or origin energy is exactly what the ancient people use on their literature. If you want a comparison, its similar to what sunlight does to us.
We cant store the energy within our body directly and can only store it through another media, like herbs that you eat, battery, etc.
We also cant absorb it directly, but it has the ability to change our body from their exposure becoming stronger or weaker, depending on the dosage. Similar like Vitamin D behaves when we exposed to sunlight with ideal dosage and cancer if overdosage.

What makes them different from sunlight though, is the unique characteristic of interchanging from origin neutral energy to the other through a specific formation.
Just like the ability of plants able to absorb sunlight, magician able to gather mana/ether through mimicking how other creatures do by creating an artificial magical formation and transform it into another like dragon's fire.
This is why wisdom and intelligence is vital to mage, because without understanding the magic formation, you cannot control mana.
If your body able to absorb mana, there is no need for spellcasting, as imagination and will theoratically should be enough.

Modern mana however, derives that mana requires to be stored inside the body before being used. Which introduce the concept of mana exhaustion.
While classic literature dont have mana exhaustion, but they have the concept of mana saturation. Oversaturation would cause mana poisoning.

 

Oh, thanks for the explanation.

As of now I am thinking of Ander's (bless the author and fuck him for bringing in so, so many reincarnated main characters, I love and hate him so so much.) previous work that involving MC capable of manipulating mana in the air instead doing like the people in the world (aka being normal), because the prana (or whatever it is called) is unwieldy and requires the user to suck it in and pee- I mean have their own signature all over it to use it. MC being iron balls just tap the prana in the air and save time (he paused it iirc) and long story short, revolutionise the whole stuff.

So in the past, this feels like the whole philosophy again, like how the west have people using the nature by borrowing their strength but not consume and own it. Then JP came along and when they tried to quantify mental strength, people mistaken it as mana absorbed and stored into the body.

This is probably me trying to link back to all the conversations at the front.

 

On a tangent, a Taiwanese reader of xianxia pointed out one difference is in western fiction you are luck gated(finding that special teacher or wand or tome or being the chosen one), where as in easter fiction you are money gated.

Yes in eastern fiction too there are some luck involved like finding that special medicine on auction or that ancient catgirl ancestor that boost your power level but those same affect can be achieved by throwing money at the problem. The effects are less than obtaining those special items but the non-mc grunts could still improve themselves.

I've read a few western novels and money is only a problem for living and not integral to power advancement like in eastern cultivation fiction.

 

The way I see it, there's a few differences between Western & Eastern Fiction Power Systems, and I termed it Fiction Power Systems so to include things like Sci-Fi powers more readily.

First of all, Western Systems tend to be more ambiguous than Eastern Systems. Sure, in Western Systems the difference between an Archwizard and an Apprentice Wizard is stark and readily apparent, but the difference between a skilled & experienced Wizard with an Archwizard can often be boiled down to individual skill and reputation, with more emphasis on the reputation. Eastern Fiction tends to be more defined in it's approach. Even in stories following story arcs from before the current Cultivation Trend, such as Thunderbolt Fantasy, where the precise "level" of everyone isn't defined, skilled practitioners can easily see the difference in skill between someone using the optimal amount of energy to defeat an enemy, and someone who's using enough for their sword to work even if it was a blunt club. This is basically the same as saying that so long as you see an Archwizard fighting something that would challenge a Wizard, you'll be able to easily tell that they're an Archwizard and not a Wizard, which only really occurs in Western Stories if they want to show off.

Secondly, Western Systems seem more diverse than Eastern Systems at a glance, but I feel like much of this is due to Western Systems gaining prominence for Power Systems that would always exist, while Eastern Systems had to define themselves by being different. For example, the OP mentions Genetic/Mutation and Sci-Fi based powers as part of Western Systems and are clearly have their own separate story worlds, while the mentioned Eastern Systems are regularly incorporated into the same story. However, Sci-Fi is Fiction based around thoughts of what the future can develop into, while Genetic/Mutation is based around the thought "what if we change". That is to say, Sci-Fi is something that would pop up into existence so long as you have so long as you have enough people writing and sufficiently technology to attempt to answer the question of "what's the future going to be like?", while Genetic/Mutation merely needs the question of "If we change to become 'better', what would happen"? Neither of these are exactly unique thought processes, it's just that, from our Western point of view, they have been presented and attempted to be answered earlier and more prevalently in fiction from Western Sources than Eastern Ones.

Apart from that, the real main difference between the two, in my mind, is in specialisation. Western Stories has almost everyone finding a task, and aiming to be good at that task. You have Warriors, Knights, Soldiers and more who train their bodies to insane levels and physically fight against their enemies. You have Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Necromancers and more who attempt to study and learn the secrets of the world in order to twist them to their will. You have Smiths, Alchemists, Farmers and more who provide vital supplies from food, weapons, armour & potions of varying importance and never get into battle. You have Thieves, Rangers, Scouts and more who find & disarm traps, discover enemies, and lead people through treacherous terrain. All these people specialise and work together in what ends up being a society-wide team. Eastern Stories regularly makes everything about the individual, even when they're in a team. It's why the MC in so many Cultivation Stories has to "become the best at everything". From what I've seen, many Eastern Stories either has the MC use a single weapon throughout (with the possibility of the weapon being replaced due to breaking being a MAJOR story arc), has their weapon created by the MC (this is done in most Cultivation Novels, as well as all the MC's pills), or, comparatively rarely, has the MC be the head of some organisation that makes them weapons that they benefit from, but don't really need.

These three things, Power/Skill Level Ambiguity, The West Taking "Authority" Over Systems That Would Always Come Into Existence, and Eastern Story Individualism vs Western Story Specialisation, are the three things I see as being the most common points of diversification between Eastern & Western Fiction Power Systems.

 

Imo, it's the complete opposite. Western fantasy tend to have a better definition on its power system compared to the eastern counterpart.
For example, Swordsman in western classification is very clear: Someone who uses a sword. Knight is the next classification of a swordsman who took an oath of loyalty to someone. Templar is a knight that took an oath to their faith instead of a master. Etc.
As for power level, western fiction mainly has three category: Human/mortal, demi-God, and God.
God is the true limit on the power level and nothing is stronger than a God. A mortal would never be able to become a demigod on their own and a demigod would never be able to become a God on their own. It is a taboo to even dreaming about it. Only with luck or fate and significant external help that one able to breakthrough.

Eastern power system on the other hand has a vague classification.
Their main classification mainly divided into two criteria: Martial artist and Non-combat profession. Martial artists would then further specialized depending on their talent, like using spear, sword, formation, saber, etc. This doesnt increase their power level, but increases one's combat prowess. Like swordsman becoming veteran swordsman.

as for power level, eastern fiction has no true limit. All of their power level are based on two criteria: Energy level and Natural law/Dao enlightment. A higher skill tier means it has a better natural law/dao application. The higher one's energy, the higher the power.

Imo, the key difference between the two is: Western fiction emphasize the limit of human body and lifespan, so they put more importance in specialization and result as one cant increase lifespan through levelling up.
Thats why teamwork are important in western fantasy.

Eastern fiction put more importance in maximizing one's foundation, potential, and growth, as they gain lifespan easily by levelling up. Specialization is not as important as cultivating. Thats why individualism is more rewarding and every martial artist is unique.