Would you punish someone for a future crime?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by pass1478, Apr 26, 2020.

  1. pass1478

    pass1478 I'm in Despair!

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    You know, a huge factor in this decision is how the public will view your actions. You think they'll be happy if they knew the fact you didn't stop a crime you could have prevented? Welp, I guess... you can just hide the truth from them.
     
  2. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    Reasonable intent and action stands in the court of law. But that doesn't mean you can arrest someone just because you can see the future.

    Let's see three cases.

    Case A:
    Johnny is just sitting at home watching netflix. You have a premonition that he will rob Mrs Thornville's grocery store next Monday. Your premonition is infallible and will always come to pass. Do you have the right to arrest him? What justification do you have to arrest Johnny?

    Case B:
    Johnny has bought a crowbar. You have a premonition that he will rob Mrs Thornville's grocery store next Monday, using the crowbar as a weapon. Your premonition is infallible and will always come to pass. Do you have the right to arrest him? What justification do you have to arrest Johnny?

    Case C:
    Johnny brings a crowbar into Mrs Thornville's grocery store. You have a premonition that he will rob Mrs Thornville's grocery store in 5 minutes using the crowbar as a weapon. Your premonition is infallible and will always come to pass. Do you have the right to arrest him? What justification do you have to arrest Johnny?

    Under no circumstance are you allowed by law to arrest Johnny for cases A and B.

    Under case C, you are still not allowed to arrest Johnny just because he brings a crowbar into a grocery store, unless the state law specifically states that you are not allowed to bring a crowbar into a grocery store. However, there are allowances for 'reasonable suspicion'. What this means is, if you as the policeman sees Johnny bring the crowbar into the grocery store, and you believe that he's up to no good, you can arrest him under grounds of 'reasonable suspicion', but it must be based on 'specific and articulable facts', not just because "I want to arrest him".

    If you ignore law just because you believe this person will do this and this without providing any articulable facts, then you're just another outlaw. If you're a police, then you'd be an outlaw with a badge, but still an outlaw. Can you stop the crime from being done? Yes, that's the only thing you can do. You can't arrest someone for something he hasn't done.
     
  3. pass1478

    pass1478 I'm in Despair!

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    To quote my original post "if given the ability to do so, would you arrest or punish people who would have committed a crime in the future?"
    It's not a matter of "are you allowed to do it?" or "can you do it?", it's "will you do it?"
     
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  4. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    Everything Ai-chan does is based on law. If it's against the law, Ai-chan won't do it. Arresting someone without evidence is abuse of authority and unlawful. Therefore, as stated before, Ai-chan will not do it.

    Will Ai-chan punish them before they do the deed? No. If a misdeed has not been done, then there is no misdeed.

    Let's take another example.

    Consider that you know with absolute certainty that your dog will feel hungry tomorrow. Unfortunately, you won't be around to feed your dog tomorrow and you can't bring your dog with you. So what do you do?
     
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  5. Zomula

    Zomula Well-Known Member

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    You could get in serious trouble if you bully, harass, and slander them too. You could easily face both criminal and civil problems, depending on where you live, and if they were going to commit a violent crime you could find yourself a target.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2020
  6. BigBadBoi

    BigBadBoi Well-Known Member

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    Watch Psycho Pass
     
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  7. pass1478

    pass1478 I'm in Despair!

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    Why would you be destroyed if you have the ability to punish or arrest them? In this situation, you are upholding the law and you have the authority to deploy forces you deem necessary.
    So, for the sake of your ideals and beliefs, you would endanger the lives of innocents? It's perfectly understandable, though.
     
  8. KurouDaijuji

    KurouDaijuji Well-Known Member

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    If you can forsee an event you object to, you may (depending on what they are) be justified in taking steps to prevent it (though I'd recommend one keeps "The Law of Unintended Consequences" in mind).

    Under no circumstances at all do I think there is justification for punishing someone for an offense of which they are not (yet) actually guilty, especially if all you know is "that an offense will occur" & don't necessarily have the context that determines whether or not it is actually illegal under the circumstances that apply.

    Note: I didn't say anything about not punishing someone for something they haven't done, because sometimes not doing something is the offense.
     
  9. MEGA SPARTA CHICKEN

    MEGA SPARTA CHICKEN Planet sized warrior Tony without wisdom teeth

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    No crime no time
     
  10. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    No, this and that are completely different things. Which innocents? If you arrest a man before he committed the crime, then it's you who are harming an innocent. This person who you said is going to commit a crime, has not committed a crime. And in fact, by arresting him, it's you who are committing a crime. The situation has changed into you being the criminal and the 'criminal' being the victim.

    Answer the dog question, and you will realize why arresting or punishing a person before they commit a crime is the most stupid trope in fiction.
     
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  11. TypeFantasyHeart

    TypeFantasyHeart Well-Known Member

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    Ask this, if you can go to the past and kill all those involved with the creation and use of corona virus (ccp virus) in the world. Would you kill them and destroy the lab? i would
     
  12. Synders

    Synders La Persona Superiore a Dio

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    For me it depends on the culprit personality...
    If he doing the crime because of reasonable factor, I'll try to eliminate the factor first...
    But if he is basically evil person, I won't hesitate to punish him even before the crime...

    Ex. people who forced to rob the bank and people who want to rob the bank will get different treatment...
     
  13. pass1478

    pass1478 I'm in Despair!

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    Leave food for tomorrow or ask someone to feed the dog for me.

    You can SEE FUTURE CRIMES. The future murder of a man, a future school shooting, a future suicide. You can see them. Are you willing to risk the lives of multiple individuals for the sake of one? I know it's a pretty utilitarianistic, but with time ticking on the clock, you're not really given much of a choice. Also, you aren't held liable for "a crime". You have the authority and jurisdiction to do so.

    Though I guess it is pretty dependant on the situation, what if the crime is something minor? Like shoplifting, illegal trespassing of private property, etc.
     
  14. Zeusomega

    Zeusomega M.D of Olympus Pvt Ltd. Seeking [Boltzmann brain]

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    Well there's all kinds of public, you got smart public, idiotic public, cult following public, ignorant public, etc.. it all matters on which one you choose to support.

    And seriously this ability is more of a nuisance than help. There's always gonna be crimes, if you start mending what happens in the future, you'll just end up creating more chaos upfront.
     
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  15. MEGA SPARTA CHICKEN

    MEGA SPARTA CHICKEN Planet sized warrior Tony without wisdom teeth

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    The public don't have the right to ruin someone's life when He hasn't harmed them even if he is thinking about it you can just send police to wait close by and catch him in the act.
     
  16. Blondiebaka

    Blondiebaka Well-Known Member

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    Unless its murder then i don't think i would
     
  17. SilverCrow63

    SilverCrow63 Well-Known Member

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    This reminds me of the plot of Psycho-Pass. You are either playing devil's advocate or trying to push an agenda. Well, whatever.

    My answer would be no. This power (or system in Psycho-Pass' case) is one that can be easily abused. If you were to punish everyone who commits a crime in the future under your judgement, you are no better than the criminals you punish. What gives you the right to judge them for something they haven't done yet? Maybe you can see the future. Tommy will becomea serial killer in 20 years. But right now Tommy is 6 years old. Maybe George will steal from the convenience store tomorrow. But maybe it is because he is starving. How will you even punish them? What gives you the right to decide a suitable punishment? A vigilante sense of justice makes you no different from others who are breaking the law. One day you will end up going too far. Let's just hope you stop before you become Light Yagami.
     
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  18. UnGrave

    UnGrave ななひ~^^

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    Ah, I missed the part where I'm on the side of the law.
     
  19. KurouDaijuji

    KurouDaijuji Well-Known Member

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    If you can change the future you're seeing then you're not seeing THE Future, you're seeing A (possible, maybe even probable) Future, the fact that you can change it deprives you of the justification for your actions, meaning you are morally & ethically obligated to find a solution that doesn't violate the perceived miscreants rights.
     
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  20. pass1478

    pass1478 I'm in Despair!

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    As I've said, in some situations, time is ticking. It's like when your pc is gonna catch a virus within 5 seconds, you either switch off your router/pc, or you let it happen. What I'm saying here is that you're not given much of a choice, you don't have time to think up of a solution where everyone is happy.

    Some things just can't be helped.