What does it means to be a man or a woman?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by cap.toon, Aug 9, 2020.

  1. ExcitableFoci

    ExcitableFoci Well-Known Member

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    Nah. I agree with most people about he being a manchild that is leeching off you.

    What I didn't agree with was the sentiment of using gender to make an argument for how he should act like. That's just plain wrong. Gender equality bruh.

    Being mature, or act like an 'adult' are the buzzwords.
     
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  2. imK

    imK Artful Dodger

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    He's just a massive dick.

    I don't use the real man/real woman statement ever, but that's more of a cultural thing.

    Pre-foreigner contact and influence, men and women could and did work and took roles interchangeably according to the needs of their tribes and sub-tribes. If you were good at growing food, you grew food. If you were better at being a warrior, you went and did warrior stuff. It wasn't complicated. The imperative was "Right person for the job" not your genitalia. Balls and boobs rarely factored into it.

    The men didn't need the women to be submissive or whatever that shit's all about. The main goal was survival and for that my ancestors needed both men and women operating at the fullest extent of their abilities, whatever they were. The worst you could be to your tribe was lazy, selfish and useless, because your ineptitude made you a burden on the continued well-being of the tribe.

    TLDR; Dunno, because the only cultural expectations my ethnicity ever had of their people was that they worked hard and worked well for the sake of each other. It's the rest of you that decided to complicate your lives by inventing all the other shit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
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  3. fteg123

    fteg123 Well-Known Member

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    Is your brother working? If not, then he is about to become a NEET (not in education, employed or training) and eventually a hikkomori or shut in. https://mangadex.org/title/1395/yamikin-ushijima-kun/chapters/ Read Chapter 66-91
    Maybe give him some space to find himself or find his passion.

    But with his attitude, get some men from either your work place or church or other places that can give him a smack down of reality. Sitting and shouting at people, especially family, isn't going to get him anywhere. And dreaming about money that he doesn't even have will get him nowhere. He shouldn't be breaking bridges when he doesn't have anything. Patience can get you so far and he will be left behind by society. Society waits for no one.
    Advice: If he doesn't want to listen to you, then introduce him some mentors and life coaching. It could be in person or it could be online. He should get ranted at. He should get torn to pieces. He should bawl his eyes out and ask for help. Then he should rebuild himself from the ground up. He's already at the bottom. What else can he lose? He is still in his twenties, the time when people are the strongest, smartest and attractive. He has the ability to rebuild himself and change for the better.
    Youtube has a great selection of mentors: i.e. Dave Ramsay, Chris Hogan, Gary Vee. They have a talk show which they give advice. Get him to call in or you can call if he doesn't want to.
    The difference between men and women
    Men: physical fights, brawls, beaten down and the ability to turn enemies into friends
    Women: mental battles, talking behind one's back, psychological warfare, the ability to never forgive, even if it is something petty.
    Here is an example. How'd you do?

     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  4. Lazriser

    Lazriser Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, say, probably, because I'm mentally not an adult yet or a full on escapist.
    Competence comes from the will. Mind over matter.

    Also why is this a gender thing? I believe arguing with him over "gender roles" isn't going to help the situation. Have him grow up as a person, not as a male or the head of the household. I'm not saying condone his actions, but at least find a middle ground. The more you argue to him about "a man this or that", it would just reinforce his pride not to do it. Don't underestimate the pettiness people can do even at their lowest. I don't know what he's suffering from or maybe he's just a genuine asshole, but if you want to be productive, try a different approach.

    Well, death is also an option. I mean, I can relate a little. If you got nothing left to live for, then why even live? Now this is just making me giggle with depression. Best of luck to your family issues.
     
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  5. MarSprite

    MarSprite <Impossible to Gauge>

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    "you can't tell me what a man should be" truly, the word is shouldn't, not can't. Try to keep it gender neutral and positive. Family. Person I can respect. Person who lives in my home. Adult.

    "bully his younger teen sister (calling her fat and ugly)" all I have for this is punitive violence. He's into games, shut the internet off. Do something. The first step was asking him not to do it again, but I'm guessing you did that. If you let this shit slide it just slides into worse behavior. If he doesn't behave because it's the right thing to do, let him behave due to consequences. Basic sustained human interaction 101.

    "Force younger sister to do chores he had been told to do" honestly, your sister needs to learn to say no, or alternatively to turn his desire into a bargaining tool to get what she wants. I see this issue as your sisters responsibility, even if it sustains my impression of him as a lower lifeform.

    "cuss--calling all women in his family except his mom, whores, hoes, and sluts" there it is, it gets worse, as I said. A proper father would have given him a physical punishment, or least the fear of one, the first time this happened, and if it happened again, each time the punishment would escalate. It's probable that this is something he'll need to learn from the school of hard knocks.

    "No job; play games all day long, and refuse to actively look for a job;" DONT BUY HIM SHIT THAT DOESN'T DIRECTLY BENEFIT YOU.
    Where is he getting his games? the thing/s he plays them on? Does he use the internet to play them- if so then: Why do you allow him access? Of course you can buy him soap and deodorant and such, but entertainment a NONO. Don't starve him to death, but he better do something beyond his most basic responsibilies before you buy him pizza. In fact, make a habit of keeping only food he's not fond of. If
    you must buy him something, so as to carrot instead of stick, let it be more ephemeral than a game. Something he'll use up in a day or two. Otherwise the carrot approach isn't as moving.

    "when I won't buy him his bread, his almond milk, he gets irritated and put up attitude." Basic rule of raising a child into a decent adult, don't let this kind of behavior pay off for the child. Let him throw his tantrum and tell him "Well I'm definitely not [doing the thing you wanted] now" Make no mistake, this person is a child.

    "my brother goes saying I am a liberal leftist that demand men conform to our feminist ideology." This is what is called an ad hominem argument. It is a logical fallacy, and people use them to change the subject from your argument to your character. Ignore his attack, and rephrase what you have to say into a gender neutral form. It's not relevant to your needs to control his opinion of your ideology. Sounds like a recurring issue, so maybe try to make gender neutral the norm for discussions with him, not because he has a point, but because it may make it easier to avoid wasting your words rephrasing. For example "I don't care if you think I'm the antichrist, you are an adult and you have responsibilities you aren't taking care of. The household needs you to do your part and at this moment that part is ______."

    'When I explained, as a man he should find a job and starts paying household bills. His response was "oh--a woman can't do that either?"' Again, ad hominem argument. He's trying to make the discussion about your character, instead of his responsibilities. Rephrase your words to be gender neutral and ignore his attack.

    "He knew exactly what I meant when I say he needs to be a man." Of course he does, but he'd rather argue about that than admit to failing his responsibilities.

    " i would have gonna him the pizza he wants etc." This is another logical fallacy, the false dilemma. Basically, he asserts "If A, then B" when the situation isn't so binary, often with no basis in fact at all. My ex did this to me and it was quite hurtful "you'd ___, if you really loved me". Say something like "it's hurtful to me that you believe that, I'm sorry it makes you feel that way. I'm still not going to ____" Just know that he's doing it to be hurtful. Somehow you can still make people feel guilt by responding like this, usually. Which is more productive than being hurtful back.

    "If another man--person, telling me I can't tell them what I expect of them (as a man, a woman, or a person) when they live in my home free of charge, eat my food free of charge, makes demand on what I should buy for them, and then call me whores/slut/hoes/a liberal leftist--I would just kick them out, no negotiating." I mean right on, but is liberal leftist really so offensive to you that you'd make your own brother live in the streets for saying it? The other stuff, obviously kicked to the curb, but political affiliation is an unforgivable insult?

    "If my mother isn't living with me, I would have kicked him out to live with our father and restricted his days at my house under strict condition." Why does this prevent you from doing so? Is it actually your mothers house? Consider talking about the issue with your mother privately, but without glossing over uncomfortable details. Offer her suggestions from here or that you have. Share your feelings. Ask her to offer you a plan for a solution.

    "In your opinion/tradition/culture, what does it mean to be a man or a woman?" My culture can't make up its mind on this.(usa)

    There are basic physiological differences between boys and girls that drastically effect them regardless of culture.

    Honestly that's not the issue. Your brother was poorly disciplined by his parents. He didn't learn that his behavior has consequences. I've seen it happen to both genders. You seem to have turned out alright from what I can glean from your post, but perhaps your parents did a better job with you, or you needed different things. He needed discipline. It's usually the fathers job, but mothers can do it too.
    That's your moms fault it sounds like, sorry to say. He's going to have to suffer for it, and hopefully he'll grow to be a mature adult someday, but it's pretty much past the point where you or your mother can fix it personally. He needs to experience the real world consequences of his behavior before he'll learn now(I believe), and that's a rude awakening to say the least.

    Try to give him a chance to be part of your life in another year or two after you finally kick him out. He may realize what a jerk he is by then.
     
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  6. Fulminata

    Fulminata Typo-ist | Officer of Heavenly Inc. |

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    I'm sorry that you've gone through that. Getting someone that you love and care treat you like that is awful, can be borderline manipulative, and toxic. The worst thing is that it isn't the type of relationship that you could easily walk out from :sweating_profusely:.

    Regarding the gender issue, i hardly see the relevance because: a) if you're using this argument, your brother would argue in circles on the topic of gender, and thus avoiding the meat of the problem, and b) instead of being a "man", it seems that your brother need to learn how to be a proper adult instead.

    It seems that your brother have taken whatever facilities that he has now for granted. How about you take it all back for a period of time? For the time being (several months or so), stop your electricity and water supplies. Leave the fridge bare. Stop your home wifi. Of course, it's best if you have another well-appointed secret place for your mother. Give him the bare minimum money to eat. It might seems cold, but truthfully, with the economic power in your hand, you could push him until he begs. But seeing his aggressive behaviour, I'm afraid that this method might escalated that until he realize that being angry and cursing doesn't do anything but making him feel more hungry.

    But of course, you could probably enlist the help of your extended family, if they care enough, or some respected figure that could control his behavior. If his emotional abuse is more than you can tolerate, i really suggest that you sue him. If he wears your patience until it snap and you can't hold the urge to... Um.... physically abuse him, I suggest you rent another place for your mental health's sake.

    Good luck :blobhighfive:
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
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  7. Diametric

    Diametric Waifu Connoisseur

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    I think gender shouldn't be brought into this at all. Instead of saying he should be a man, just say he should be an adult since that is less ambiguous and he can't twist your words to avoid the topic.

    Regarding to the stuff outside of the spoiler, I personally think that any differences between men and women other than sex is mainly based on culture and gender stereotypes. If things such as gender roles and gender stereotypes don't exist then the idea of categorising people as a man or woman based on their mind and personality doesn't really make much sense. What I see in the ideal far future is gender stereotypes fading and everyone eventually becoming "gender neutral".
     
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  8. MasterCuddler

    MasterCuddler Handsome Chicken

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    Nah it just sounds like he’s in denial, just tell him to grow up. It’s time to be an adult
     
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  9. nyamachi

    nyamachi [Chaos Twin :3] [Melo fanclub member]

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    Your brother sounds like an entitled brat who might have been warped by some pretty mysigonist ideas...

    Like most people have said, he needs discipline and a big dose of reality. Try to enforce consequences and follow through**. Ideally this would come from your mother (who he seems to respect a bit more than you or your sister) or some other respected figure in your family. Set boundaries (ie you do not address me or any other fam members that way) and if he doesn't follow them, enforce some kind of punishment until he gets it (no games, no internet - change the password or something so everyone else can still use it except him).

    :blob_plusone: to everyone who suggested speaking with your mother about it privately without leaving out any unpleasant details. It would've been her responsibility to raise him into a decent human being. Again, it might stick more if she was the one who did the dressing down.

    It's not really about gender as much as it is about respect and responsibility. Coming from an Asian background... If I ever talked down to my parents or older siblings I would've been hung by my tail and kicked out of the house. You shouldn't have to take his crap.
     
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  10. Yamcha

    Yamcha Friendnemy

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    The word you are looking for is ADULT. Adults have responsabillities, doesn't matter if they sit or not to piss.

    That brother of yours needs should act like an adult although if he has free roof, free food, free room service, why he should look for a job? He has everything he needs already.
     
  11. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    in my opinion being a man or a women is to be a soul in a body full of germs and living a life that has no definite meaning which we NEVER asked for from anyone EVER. Also to be an idiot who understands that they are gonna die someday but making an mistake of trying to live a happy life but instead making it even worse.