Discussion So, Aizen ("Bleach") is supposed to be mastermind? Uh, not with this thing he did.

But Aizen never really underestimated anyone...he merely overestimated himself. He knew what ichigo could do and looked forward to him coming up with new things to surpass him. But once he started changing he was overestimating his ability to grow stronger and evolve to surpass things.

 

Madara's back story was actually good but it just became ridiculous and I dropped the show.
Turning Naruto from a poor orphan to a prince who for some reason was poor made no sense.
Kishimoto retconned all the sense out of the story.
All the emotional investment pointless, why would a prince be eating rotten milk? Why was there no inheritance? When soldiers die in battle, their family gets a pension.
Hokage's family should be the same.
When everything could be changed later, Naruto no longer had any point.
It was like The Flash going back in time to reset everything. Investing in characters emotionally felt dumb since we might get a different version next time.

I can understand why Kagura or whoever the female villain at the end was brought it but it was a little too late.
I was already jaded from overexposure to Madara

 

Uh, I am not here to defend Aizen but masterminds aren't infallible.

Uh, it made sense actually. Why would Konoha village let some brat inherit the Hokage's wealth when it could be put into a better use like going into their pockets? In fact, they probably would have killed Naruto after Minato died if it wasn't for the fact that he's the Jinchuuriki. There was no one else in the village who could seal the Kyuubi. Minato sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto to protect him from the villagers. Why do you think the villagers treated Naruto like a pest all those years?

 

You seem to be forgetting that he was drinking rotten milk. You think it makes sense for a soldier's child to not even get a pension let alone a Hokage's son?
Sorry but it is just crap writing. Had nothing to do with the Kyuubi.
Third Hokage or Jiraiya could have easily taken care of him. But they didn't.

It is just bad writing and retconning.

Even Pain got cared for by Jiraiya for a while as a war orphan but Naruto wasn't.

Him being a Junchuriki makes it more ridiculous. Given that his emotional state could lead to him destroying the village.
He should have been cared for.

It is just bad writing when he was a walking time bomb

 

Well, if Aizen overestimating himself is not the same as the "Your overconfidence will be a downfall for you!" message, how so?

 

Aizen never underestimated Ichigo, in fact he has something to do with Ichigo's extremely fast power ups. As you know, the Hougyoku is a power that brings forth the owner's desire. Aizen stole Unohana's stable version of the Hougyoku to achieve peak-tier strength that would allow him to kill the Soul King.


During their final bout, Ichigo claims that he felt nothing from Aizen's blade but solitude. And Maybe, just maybe Aizen wants someone at his own level. Henceforth this unconscious desire of his gave Ichigo the power up he needed to defeat him.


P.S. Bleach has too many loosethreads that I don't even want to defend it. Fullbring arc is just... *facepalm* I don't even want to begin with that one.

 

Over confidence is not underestimating his opponents. Its overestimating himself. One is something that is about others, one is about himself. What your saying is he basically looked down on and didnt really keep track of the strength of his enemies, but he did, constantly. He knew their strength and that it would grow, to what limits he may not know but he knew that each time they meet again he will be much stronger. He merely overestimated his ability to evolve and surpass others, and the hogyoku's ability to help him.

 

TBH, I have a case of "I don't remember the exact specifics of what lead to Aizen's downfall fight Wise without looking it up. However, I do firmly stand by the premise that somehow Aizen screwed-up by either underestimated his opponents or getting too cocky or both."

Also, underestimating your opponent is not always tied with how the brawn. It also with the brain. For example and for the sake of argument, Aizen could have known the true brawn of an opponent but unaware of their smarts. For example, if Aizen hypothetically has some realization where he sweats and says/thinks something to the gist of "I was a fool to truly underestimate the intelligence of Ichigo!"

Also, Aizen needing to be cognizant, the degree of which is arguable, about the minds of his opponents, that is not limited to only Ichigo.

I get that it is impossible for a character to fully be aware of the strength of their opponent's intelligence. However, at least twice in a series it wouldn't for them, even if thinking to themselves, say something like any of the quotes I have mentioned in this thread on it is foolish to underestimate your opponent.

 

Why not? Naruto didn't have a proper guardian to take care of him. There was no one to make sure Minato's inheritance rights were properly followed through. You seemed to forget that this is a manga about shinobi. Even if it's shonen, a lot of shady things were going on in the manga. If Orochimaru could perform human experimentation on children, what's so surprising about a former Hokage's son being abused?

Yes, that either means Sarutobi was "too busy" or he doesn't care much about Naruto. There's no way a Hokage would spend too much time taking care of a brat even if he's the former Hokage's child. In terms of their relationship, Naruto is just the son of a student's student. They're actually not that close. Sarutobi probably just gave orders to his subordinates to take care of Naruto. Why would the subordinate put in that much effort to take care of a former Hokage's son? If Minato was alive, they would probably grovel in front of Naruto but a dead Hokage isn't going to help them politically or financially.

As for Jiraiya, how often do you think he's in Konoha? He left Konoha long before Minato's death. I wouldn't be surprised if he only knew about Minato's death when he first appeared in the manga. Likewise, even if he had returned to Konoha, he would probably just obtain information about Naruto from Sarutobi. So, it's not that surprising that Jiraiya did nothing for Naruto.

That's not true. The Kyuubi seal only started weakening during the events of the manga, so the seal is still safe as long as they didn't kill him. If it's apparent that Naruto starts to become dangerous, they could easily placate him. Just look at how easily manipulated Naruto is.

 

You don't see how ridiculous you sound to justify the bad writing.

It is a retcon.

Sarutobi loved Naruto.
Jiraiya had the time.
Naruto was being watched 24/7

That they could not provide his daily expenses is just rubbish.

You cannot excuse it.

The most likely scenario is that Naruto was really a poor kid but was changed to an orphan prince midway through the story.
I am don't do the same anymore but I read the manga, dug through interviews was part of Facebook groups etc.
Oda Echiro of One Piece is just a better writer.

I know its normal to make excuses for something but like.
But I love Naruto and won't make any excuses for it.
Another retcon is Sasuke and Naruto always being friends.
Yeah right, they were never friends.

It was just force fed down our throats later.

That is why I when I rewatch the anime, I watch Naruto and don't bother with Shippuden

 

Like I said, Aizen is fully aware of Ichigo's capabilities even before his birth. He knew that Ichigo's full potential is higher than his. Aizen wanted strength. However, Shinigami's have a max capacity that he can't breakthrough. He clearly wants for Ichigo to be stronger so that he could have some hope to break the limitation. Unfortunately, he overestimated Ichigo and not otherwise. Ichigo failed to kill him, so this lead to his conclusion that it's impossible to break the limit forcing him to fully merge with the Hougyouku.


During this moments of despair, Ichigo realized his real Shinigami powers. Which is a massive plot armor imo, I don't really understand it but it has the same concept of Gon's power up using all his future potential to achieve a higher state to H.Aizen. Mugetsu is all about one full strike, so there will be no follow up attack. Ichigo failed to kill H.Aizen so he didn't necessarily defeated him, but it gave Urahara the time to use Kido and seal Aizen. After he was sealed he realized that his undersranding of Shinigami powers is shallow and fake.

 

Like I said, Aizen would have been wise to realize that he underestimated his opponents' intelligence. By this, I mean that his enemies are smarter than Aizen realized. To say Aizen is truly, truly stupid for underestimating the strengths of his opponents, especially their brains, is putting nicely. Seriously, I would have not minded a scene where Aizen a moment of realization that he underestimated the smarts of his opponents to the point where he expressed genuine fear or nervousness.

Him being too cocky/prideful and underestimating his opponents are what makes him pathetic? Mastermind? Oh, please! He is masterming at being stupid!

 

The only reason Ichigo won because he have to, since he's the main character. Whether it's intellect, strength or preparation Aizen is way ahead. Sadly he's the villain of the story so he lost it the most ridiculous way. Ywhach suffered from the same fate. You wouldn't understand that though, as Sosuke Aizen once said, "Admiration is the emotion furthest from understanding".

 

Just because Aizen is way ahead on brains, brawn, or planning, it would be nice if at least twice in the series he said or thought something that is similar to the various quotes I have stated here. Being ahead mentally is not a pass to underestimate or even overestimating an opponent.

 

I thought the Hougyoku weakened Aizen at the end. Something about it deciding against Aizen’s vision over Ichigo’s.

 

Yup, the peak is a lonely place so Aizen's desire to be free from that solitude granted Aizen's wish. Ichigo's hypothesis is that Aizen himself wanted to be weak, because he's too strong even before his fusion with the Hougyouku. It was a misconception that the Hougyouku rejected Aizen which resulted to his defeat and the destruction of his Zanpaktu. Kubo the mangaka never really clarified this but his statement subtly supported Ichigo's hypothesis.

 

Either way, it wasn’t a failing on his part, not in his strategy anyway. His only failing would be that he really didn’t understand himself. Another could be the the Hougyouku is actually sentinent (which is an idea I’m making up right now.). Regardless, it wasn’t a power of friendship that allowed Ichigo to win. (Although it could be argued that it was the opposite)

 

At least Obito was smart enough to admit he underestimated Naruto.