Discussion IRL relationship problem

I had this thing on my head for months and the matchmaking or whatever thing recently going on in this forum pushed me to post it.

My buddy Jake was dating this girl Tilly for like 10 months and everything was going well. He initially pursued her like a gentleman with dates, movies and stuffs. He spent time and money on her and she finally said yes after one and a half month around January. Fast forward to 10 months and They were talking about moving in together and stuffs.

One night the couple was hanging out with some friends and one guy was surprised about Tilly dating Jake. Jake found it odd and asked him about this later. That guy told Jake that he hooked up with Tilly via Tinder a couple of times during December. Basically while Jake was patiently chasing after this girl, she was having casual sex with random guys. Also Jake had no other girl on his mind during that time.

Later when Jake confronted Tilly, she admitted and explained that they weren’t "official couple" back then. That she is allowed to explore her options before deciding and that doesn’t count as cheating. Most of us friends advised him to break up. Jake was disgusted by the fact that all his time and money was wasted as Tilly was having sex with other guys for free. Worst part was that Tilly kept him waiting for an entire month with all his efforts before sex yet other guys only had to make a phone call for that.

Female friends of Tilly supported her and said that Jake is overreacting. When Jake exploded that why Tilly made him wait so long for sex when others got into her pants so quickly, they said those random guys were casual hook ups that don’t matter. That Jake was a guy with long term relation prospect so Tilly had to have her guards up against him.

Jake could not get past this and broke up. They had good relation during the entire time. Tilly's and her female friends said Jake should get over this and not to destroy this good thing. Although I supported Jake, I don’t have much relation experience myself. So what do you guys think?

 

I think men and women have different views on this kind of issue, women tend to want the best 'deal' as it were. Personally I think Jake is in the right, if they were going out on dates then they are dating and relations with another is cheating. Even if it was not cheating as per her view, if he is unhappy with it he is fine to walk from the relationship.

 

I mean they weren't dating at that time plus your friend shouldn't expect to have sex with tilly just because he spent money. That's going into the incel territory.

 

First off, anyone in a relationship has the right to break it off for any reason -- that's what a consensual relationship should be. If one side of the equation isn't feeling it anymore, then it's completely valid to break up.

As a whole, however, I don't think either of the side was entirely wrong. It just seems to be a lack of communication. Tilly was well within her rights to see other guys when she was not, in fact, dating, while Jake was also well within his rights to feel kind of betrayed that she never mentioned this to him.

In general, though, I dislike the fact that it's framed as him having "wasted" his time and money on her because it sounds like he's just treating her as a prize to be won rather than as a person he honestly wants to have a relationship with. When I was (romantically) rejected by a friend, I never thought that all the time I had with her and the things I gave her were wasted -- I actually look back on those memories pretty fondly, and even though the relationship kind of crashed and burned later (for different reasons), I never once regretted our time together. And if Jake isn't able to do that... well, the relationship was doomed from the beginning, and I think both of them dodged a bullet here.

Also casual sex =/= relationship. If Jake just wanted to have sex with her, then... maybe he should have been upfront about it? Because from the way it sounds, he seems to be overly hung up on having been "kept waiting", which is... well, relationships are a big deal! She was well within her rights to take her time thinking about it! And if Jake felt uncomfortable with her seeing other guys when they were still in an ambiguous stage, he could've maybe... mentioned it? Like, "Hey, I'm not seeing anyone right now, so are you willing to also not see anyone until we figure this out?" (Though, yes, she probably should've also brought up her hookups if they were legitimately sort-of-almost dating.) ...Basically, it sounds like all of this could've been prevented if they had hashed out their expectations/desires from the beginning.

 

I can see why Jake would be annoyed, but I don't think Tilly did anything wrong. My opinion is basically what you said she said. There's a difference between casual hookups and an actual relationship. The closer you are to someone, the less likely you are to start doing sexual things with them (until you actually start dating), since you don't want to ruin what you have by having sex and potentially making things weird.

It's like this. I have very close friends who are girls whom I would need a lot of time and convincing to do something sexual with, even though I think they are very attractive. But I'm very willing to sexual things with lots of girls whom I'm not very close with.

 

He is overreacting.

"Jake was disgusted by the fact that all his time and money was wasted as Tilly was having sex with other guys for free. Worst part was that Tilly kept him waiting for an entire month with all his efforts before sex yet other guys only had to make a phone call for that."

So? She isn't obligated to have sex with him just because he spends money on her. Like is he mad because she had sex while they were initially dating? Or is he mad that he wasn't given any despite how much money he spend, while some rando on tinder was?
This just sounds childish, and could have been handled through a normal conversation.
But i will say this. They weren't in a relationship. So why was she supposed to act like they were? Are you implying that from the moment you have a date with someone that you're both in an unofficial relationship?

That just sounds dump.

"Worst part was that Tilly kept him waiting for an entire month with all his efforts before sex yet other guys only had to make a phone call for that."

That seems like a gross simplification. We need more info on the details of her relationships with the other guys before even attempting to acknowledge the validity of a statement like this.

I like that you focus on the money and time aspect, seemingly ignoring the fact that they weren't in a relationship, meaning she isn't withheld the option of "dating" or "hooking up" with other dudes.

 

I agree with jake. if tilly was seriously dating him she shouldn't be sleeping around even if they are at the casual just getting to know you phase, but jake is also at fault for not making it clear in the beginning what is and is not okay.

Rules are set while dating the first date is just I want to get to know you phase 2nd and 3rd should be when you feel a connection with that person and want something more and this is where you set the rules like no sleeping around with others. while your not married and aren't in a relationship she and you are allowed to date others to get to know or find other options, but it shouldn't mean casual sex.

Jake feels betrayed and I would too because she was going around behind his back instead of talking to him saying she isn't sure of anything yet and will be having casual sex until I feel that this feels right and jake could have just backed off at this point since her way of doing things doesn't conform with he views and opinions, but she took that off the table and made a decision that only benefits her an not him.

 

If I read you correctly Tilly had not agreed to anything during the period she hooked up with others.

So - and I say this fully understanding Jake's POV - it seems the problem is that Tilly had a couple 1-night-stands before they became a couple aka, when Jake had no reason to be mad. So the point is that Jake's jealous that he had to work to get laid?

The whole pre-dating / chase - Period is a massive gray area because people tend to have different views on exclusivity.
So while I agree that this is a sh*tty situation, I have to defend Tilly here a bit.

As long as she stayed loyal from the moment she said "yes", she is more or less in the clear.
As long as the past STAYS the past, either learn to live with it or break up, not because of what she did, but because he can't stand it.

Everybody has to decide for themselves where they draw the line, just be aware that every line you draw limits your options for a partner.
Sure, we all want to only date virgins who somehow still are amazing in bed, but chances are, that your (future) partner has a past you do not entirely like.

 

Jake is right to feel betrayed honestly, but Tilly wasn’t exactly wrong either. If I were Jake I imagine that I would too decide to break it off but that’s mainly cos I’m a very traditional person and that Jake found out quite early on. It’s a difference of philosophies and perspectives. However, whoever I do decide to stay with in the future will most likely have a past that I dislike and despite that I’ll probably decide to stick with her cos to be with her in the first place I’ll have to like her enough. It should also just be known that I’m a completely clean slate regarding relationships but I’m just commenting thinking realistically. Neither are incorrect but in all honesty I imagine that if either of the two were keen on continuing the relationship, one of them would back down, though that probably wouldn’t pose well for a long term relationship. In your comment it’s also a bit unclear as to whether Tilly was on Tinder during their initial relationship phases or before. If it’s initial then it’s a complete no go.

 

Haaah, this is quite a sad state. I feel like they could've been happy together but I also feel that him being disgusted and heartbroken is also reasonable.

 

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I m siding with Jake here but to me the Time and money thing is bs. I m siding with him cause I would feel betrayed if the girl I had multiple dates with was sleeping around while I was trying to date her. Like After multiple dates , it s fine if you are not sure you want to date someone but then why keep going on a date with him and sleep around with other guys in the mean Time. For those who want to defend thé girl , would u bé fine if a guy you went to multiple dates with was also sleeping with a lot of other girls while still trying to date you ? To each their own morals. You are not getting a girl with money or dating her just for sex , it s also about thé feelings yo guys have for each other. Liké idk to me it sounds quite shitty thing to do . But again to each their own morals.

 

Well, until she said "yes", I neither think she was obligated to anything wrt. Jake; regardless of the effort he put into it.

However, if she's just doing one night stands while keeping him at a distance when they are both knowingly dating (even though not in serious relationship yet), and only until after a long deliberation does agree to his approach... I can understand why he couldn't trust her anymore... I reckon being made to feel like a person she "settled for" after trying his best to be serious about a relationship would feel horrible.

Personally, if they're both dating, even if they're not in an "official" relationship, I feel it is already a low level commitment and I feel it would be basic minimum manners to reject the guy before sleeping around.

If they're meeting and spending time as "just friends" or less, then that's a different story.

Regardless, any effort Jake made doesn't entitle him to anything, but personally I'd never want to have anything to do with Tilly either.

She's not really considering Jake, so I don't think she is able to give anything back emotionally either.

And if there's no emotional connection, Jack is better off taking care of his own lust with his own hands.... there's no point in keeping Tilly or any other woman around for anything... and if it really must be a woman, he should get a prostitute, since it'll be cheaper and easier on his heart in the long run.

 

I agree with this 100%. I’d also like to add that there’s no “set” time when she should have agreed to sex. Just because she had one night stands with some guys does not mean she is required to jump into sex right away with anyone else. Thinking she is is heading toward nonconsensual territory.

 

So to me it seems like the root of the problem is the two people's different base assumptions. Jake seems to ascribe to the idea that partners are monogamous to each other from the moment they express interest in each other. Tilly seems to ascribe to the idea that until the moment that a monogamous commitment has been explicitly discussed and agreed upon, then they are in no such agreement. Neither person is wrong. The problem comes from the fact that they were not on the same page. Going forward, they should probably discuss their viewpoints on this with the people they date very early on.

Also the mention of money in the post is making me very uncomfortable. Whether or not Jake chooses to pick up the tab when doing activities with Tilly does not inherently entitle him to anything. I personally think that people should try to vaguely split things (don't keep a ledger, but maybe just alternate who pays for food or whatever) if possible.

 

Different people have different views on relationship...
So no comment from me

 

Overall, this gives me the impression that Tilly was stringing Jake along to be her sugar daddy.

It sounds like your friend Jakes was very obviously serious with his relationship with Tilly. Obvious as in all of their mutual friends know that they're "a couple". Maybe their parents even know. I'm guessing he probably expressed his intent for the goal of marriage all through those months. Yet, and this is the bottom line, Tilly never spoke up about her not being serious with him and that she was actively exploring her options. If he was aware and there was ok with it, then that would have been fine. Then there was also that she was willing to have casual sex with anybody except him raises an eyebrow. She needs to justify this better. I'm also wondering why all of her girl friends are so blase about it too.

Tell Jake he dodged a bullet. There was no trust from Tilly's side of the relationship and it's unlikely that any will develop if she continues to use him as a patsy. That he cut his losses and walked away is the right choice. Make sure all of your friends knows about this.

 

I can’t speak for Tilly, as I have never casually slept with someone, but I have slept with more than one person, and I can say that I was ready to have sex at very different times in the relationship. So, no, I don’t think Tilly’s reaction is weird.

 

Thats not a relationship. Thats a transaction.

If your spending money on someone or giving them goods in exchange for them to be with you then thats just wrong imo.

Let your friend do what he wants. I have had friends that were just doing dumb shit. The first time I try to interfere, the second time I'll only say something, and finally the third time I'll just walk away.

 

Thanks for your opinion guys.

For additional info: Jake and all of us agreed that it’s okay to have sex with others/seeing other guys a few times during the initial dating phase. A few dates don’t mean a relationship and its fine to see other options. What he couldn’t shake off was that how she had sex with others so frequently while they were gradually having a connection. Week after week, they were spending time together, knowing each others preference, going to different places, having a growing affection for one another. Yet, she was still having sex with others during this 'bonding phase'. Jake even suspected that one time, she had sex at night with a rando after a date with him. Tilly refused to discuss it further with him as digging the past will only bring more trouble. This kinda grossed him out.

Also Jake is a relationship type guy. ONS, hook up is not his style while Tilly hooked up from time to time as she wasn’t in a relation. So, communication was a problem.

Lastly Jake said he would be fine if Tilly had sex with him as well as others during her deciding phase. He was hurt that he had to go through all those 'hoops and loops' for her to have sex with him. She was reserved around him. As Tilly said, she was 'testing' Jake as advised by her friends. While Jake was busy passing her test, other guys were already playing with the prize without any effort or test. This was the final straw for him.

Edit: Maybe using the word 'prize' might lead you guys to think Jake was objectifying woman or anything but his not. Main thing is, Jake is a traditional dating guy and Tilly acted like she is also that kind of girl. So Tilly mislead him into thinking that she will not have sex with him that easily. That they have to be a couple to have sex. Jake gracefully accepted that and tried to make her like him and stopped any kind of sexual advance. Thats why Jake didn’t thought about mentioning hook ups or anything as he thought any other guy will also have to work hard like him to get Tilly.

But later Jake learned all hook up history. He thought that if Tilly wanted to have things casual then why not have sex with him as well as other guys and finally decide who to date. Why only make him wait and why say all that "I dont have sex that quickly with anybody" crap.