Discussion Anyone having the same problem as me? Trouble reading Japanese novels.

I don't think that either side of the variety equation is particularly true. At least on the Chinese side, the impression that readers can get is that only xianxia novels exist. The reality is that Chinese web novels are about as varied as literature in general. So there are books out there like Mysteries, Sports novels, War stories, and so on. A lot of these basically don't exist on NU so it's not surprising to be unaware of them. At least 50% of the most popular novels are untranslated, and many of the most popular writers are completely unknown here.

On the other hand this isn't true about Japanese web novels. Sure are all of these out there, but the reality is that Syosetu is by far the biggest web publisher and all of the popular Syosetu are translated. I think that you'd have to go down past the Top 100 before you'd find a book that's either untranslated or unlicensed. So while the books on NU aren't fully representative of the entire Japanese web novel industry, it is representative of all the popular ones.

I've felt that Japanese web novels often feel like they're manga scripts. It sort of makes sense given what's likely inspiring the writers, and it also is a good explanation for why their books are so bad. Manga have art to do mush of the heavy lifting: remove that art, and the story is going to lack a lot of things.

 

I have to agree that with quite a few of pretty bad webnovels I at least find the manga versions readable in the sense that the art helps the pacing of the story.
For manhua I've often found the exact opposite, though not like I read every manga or manua adaptation of bad novels.

 

I have been reading JP/KR/CN novels for almost 5-7 years now and almost all are equally bad/good depending on your preference .
First lets talk about the tiger in the house JP
JP novels have few flaws as a whole
1) Extreme perversion, a large part of JP novels focuses heavy on creating harem and constant leecher moments even in middle of fights and crisis which is just a turn off. And even in that archtype, A major portion only focuses on sexualizing underage girls per say (Yes I get AoC in JP is 13, but its 18 in most of the countries and women are considered adults after 18) yet almost 90% of harems are school girls in extreme kinky outfits and situations all the time and then the further loli crap, she looks 10 but shes 100 alright totally fine to sexualize her.

2) Betaness, one of major kink in JP novels is that extreme tendency of forgiveness and goody two shoes in situations that do not deserve it. Oh you just murdered a lot of people? Wiped that whole town? Tried to assassinate me and my beloved? Damn Im gonna kill you... O wait you look cute, wanna be in my harem instead? Or that "I will never kill a woman no matter what kind of low low shit she pulls". Its the apocalypse and this girl will make the world ruin? who cares let me fuck her first.

3) Dumbass reasoning - Our world is in crisis from the demon lord who can snap fingers and kills us all but all that can save us is a horny teenager from earth who is busy working his shaft on some ero magazine, No, not anyone athletic or someone with special training like armed forces, or a genius but that exactly the dumbest weakest beta cuck from earth, who anyone from our world can snap in two.
And if that wasnt enough , the almost tragically dumb plotline ever of, We will summon a hero to save us and then proceed to berate him and try to murder him 24/7 and hero accepts it like a cuck.

4) the characters archtype - same old a dumb ass violent tsundere with dog poo in skull instead of a brain, inciting violence and shoving herself in any possible good moment with character not her are the worst offenders to this whole genre. And the Im evil till MC sticks it in me, then im the holy saint.

Good -
1) World building - JP novels do the best world building imo with facilities and points have clear purpose and history behind them
2) Characterization - While the character archetypes are annoying, the fleshing out and development of side characters or anyone not MC actually happens and is normally pretty well done.
3) Endings - You rarely get bad endings here compared to other two genres. So for all the suffering , you atleast get a satisfactory ending.
4) Respect - Perhaps the most imp point, JP novels have inbuilt respect in comrades and other citizens much above the other ones and lets the NPC stay with dignity. (More on this in CN bad)

CN
1) E D G E L O R D S - Holy shit chinese MC/Villains are edgy, if you thought JP horny teenagers were bad, these are whole another level of terrible. They are horny 24/7, mind worse than a teenager and on constant edge. YOU DARE DISTURB MY TEA TIME??? YOU DARE STAND IN MY WAY?? TIME TO END YOUR ENTIRE 9 GENERATIONS.
Like fuck they are so overdramatic 24/7 its annoying, not a single civil convo can be expected but straight up , Your mom, no your grandmom all the time.
2) We love rape, Yay!!! - Every fuckin WN has a rape scene, whether its one of the FL getting raped by someone, or ML raping someone. They fuckin love their rape. And what do they do with victims? if MC rapes - Oh man wow, he raped me, the XXXX beauty of xXXX who no one could touch - what a fuckin alpha he is. Time to spread my legs for him 24/7 from now on. and if someone known by MC is raped - oh you raped my woman? I'll rape your fiance, your sister and every female that moves in your family and then kill them all.
Or the classic, no noes I drank a love potion.
3) Zero Respect - No one has any ounce of respect for anyone, especially women - if women of MC , Tragic heroine who is a goddess but is killed/raped almost every other arc. Has leechers commenting on her assets 24/7, family only thinks of selling her off as sex slave for money. Other girls be jealous and drug her so she can be raped and bla bla. Not a single FL without being a damsel in distress in every other arc or someone furnace burner till MC hurr durr you touch my women, I kill you happens.
and for villain ones? Everyone and their mother is a dumb bitch who only knows three lines - I'll kill you,I'll rape you, YOU DARE? DONT YOU KNOW WHO I AM?
Family? Always the one to kick you out of clan and kill your parents,or try to murder you, or your woman.
Fiance? always to break engagement and rub on you, then get thrashed and regret.
Villains? conveniently wait till MC can beat them b4 taking action.
4) Repeative - Goddam these crap repeat so much crap just like I am doing with crap right now.
Every other female is Jade Skin with waist like a glass, bossom like melons with valley so deep, Creamy thighs, perfect round buttocks, long legs, Phoenix eyes, Luscious hair, sharp nose, hot burning lips and we need to waste half chap on her description. Then another half on her cloths. Then 2 chaps on her berating MC as a pervert
2 chaps of how genius and cruel the villain is, 3 chaps of shit talk to mc, to get 1 shotted in a para.

Good
1) Ruthless - Unlike JP, Most CN feature heavy killing - like literal killing whole families,clans,towns of anti parties. But one thing it still sucks at is - Muh beautiful woman, how could I kill you? Wanna suck me instead? Yes!, all you did is murder my 3 generations, who cares after all? that aside, villains are properly dealt with
2) Not just combat - almost every series has some sort of crafting side job MC does whihc is normally the best part of series - whether alchemist, tailsman, beast rearing, blacksmith etc.
3)Mature characters - The older chars are normally much more mature (MC and opponents always -10020 IQ tho)
4) Literary - CN novels incorporate good deals of poems and stuff which make it more fun to read and understand, and their unique world environment is also fun

KR - These are least ones I read so far and mostly of female protas
Bad
1) Garbage family - Almost a staple that alive parent is the worst piece of shit to ever exist and will do nothing but abuse to Fem MC.5 and Dead loving parents, cuz cant have story with alive ones unless they are abusive , Yay!
2) Women are trophies - No Dignity and self respect for any daughter, all are just meant to be trophies of male MC and deal with the abuse from them regardless of their wishes and if they dare speak up, time to murder your family
3) Royal Family is retarded in the head - Geez like when is royal family ever competent unless its like emperor and her daughter focus stories? Every Emperor, Empress, CP is peak retard.
Emperor - Birth control? fuck that - time to fuck any random girl from the kingdom and then bitch why I have illegitimate child and then make their whole life miserable.
Empress - Decency? Fuck that - time to witch hunt every bitch not me ( even tho I am one) who slept with emperor and their children
Empress Dowager - ? Time to usurp the throne and murder people.
Crown Prince - Fidelity? Whats that? Time to fuck every noble unmarried female that moves while I am engaged and then justify my actions and blame the girl.
Other princes - Either dead or tImE tO uSuRp ThRoNe 2
Princess - Either sold as slaves or jealous lil bitches of FL and ML.

Like how the fuck they even run a country with mind in gutter?
o and if any religion/society like magic - time for civil war and uSuRp ThRoNe 3
4) Women love abusive relations - So what if he abused me all my life? Killed my family? Killed me? Raped me? Did all of that to me? and gave a perma PTSD Even if I live again - I will love him only!, Yay for retards! and ofc Tragic Villain backstory, just so it can be all justified.



Good
1) Retribution - Delicious when served anyway, which has low chance to begin with.
2) Mostly logical characters bar the main villain set , which is again -218319 IQ.
3)Great Worldbuilding and characterization for side characters as well most of the times.
4) History showing , good deal of time. Combat systems are generally nice


So TLDR : All are same type of shit depending on ones preferences.
Chinese are filled with violence and woman rape with muh -12981 IQ.
Korean are filled with woman trophies and family abuse with muh tragic story.
Japanese are filled with horny teenagers and perverted antics with betaness.

One common fault is that garbage power scaling, either they make MC so op - it one shots everything or so weak, half story is just it getting thrashed.

 

I've never really had a problem with this. I think the bigger problem is that the writer is too often indecisive and unwilling to properly commit to any of his characters. I sort of get why people don't like this but it seems very minor compared to everything else.

What kind of books are you reading? I don't even mean this sarcastically - I find these to be absolutely awful in the Japanese web novels I read and I'd love to see better stuff. Hell, in half the books I read the writer doesn't even bother giving names to the territories in his world!

In contrast, I'm reading a Chinese novel right now that is so very rich with detail: not only about the different countries in the story, but details about all the major political figure, about the effects of the different social policies, and how this affects all of their motivations. Sure, the author of this book is cheating, but I've yet to see any Japanese novel aside from "Twelve Kingdoms" do this as well. Scratch that - "the Legend of Galactic Heroes" and "Crest of the Stars" do this as well, but they're a lot less convincing at it.

I see this kind of criticism a lot but I don't think I've seen any of this stuff in the books I read. I suspect that this kind of writing is easy to avoid if you wanted to.

 

Im surprised to what you have read then from chinese? from 2013-2018 every WN that got TLd was indulged in these elements because readers wanted nothing else and now with Qidian over 90% of stuff is this and the female shojo ones which are even worse because every single of it glorifies either a Successful female being raped/broken down to fall in love or a Succesful male raping a normal girl till she is love with it. Heavy abusive relations all over the place.
All the current gen popular novels have atleast 1- 2 of these tropes if not all


regarding world building - Moon led journey across another world, Magika to kenshi no baselius, Shield Hero, Log Horizon, LEGEND OF THE GALACTIC HEROES,Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, Fate/Zero, DRRR, Spice and Wolf, Maoyuu maou no yuusha etc. A lot of harem novels provide depth to world building too because of the heroines origins from those places.

and if we just go outside territories for world building - Snafu/monogatari/Hyouka/Garden of sinners are plenty that build the world in them heavily.

 

All of this is untrue. There are tons of genres in Qidian that are not translated, and it's these books that tend to have stronger writing. Often translators will try picking up these stronger books and give up after a few weeks because readers aren't interested in them. I read books in Chinese so it doesn't affect me, but I am disappointed that people constantly complain about the writing in Chinese novels when they adamantly stick to reading the kind that they profess to disliking.

Right now I'm reading Zhui Xu. It's a fake historical novel (sort of) and it's not as good as some of those proper historical novels out there. However, it's still far richer than I've seen from Japanese books in general.

I haven't read all of these books, but I'd put "Shield Hero" and "Maoyuu Maou" in the category of bad world building. I certainly wouldn't read "Haruhi" for the world building and "Fate/Zero" just ticks me off in that regard. "Legend of Galactic Heroes" is pretty good in this regard but there are a lot of things that I don't like about this book. "Log Horizon" and "Spice and Wolf" seem pretty good but they're still fall short of the Chinese books I read.

 

All of this is untrue? Alright
Stellar Transformation, the novel that broken the chinese market to enter western market - Multiple clan to whole world slaughters, attempted rapes on FL, family trying to murder FL while she is pregnant.
BTTH - The novel that made the faceslapping genre into life and another to bring the western wave - Multiple rape scenes, family inducted violence, damsel in distress for every FL in every arc, Murders of clans after clans.
Soul Land (Doulou Dalou) The third novel that broke the market along BTTH - Still the all same faults but no rape iirc.

then the other pop novels which dominated western market form chinese
Coiling dragon - slaughters after slaughters, Against the gods - Rape the series, MGA - Rape and violence glorification, Family issues, senseless slaughters, emperors domination - worlds and worlds slaughtering, attempted rape every arc here and there.
till 2018 ,the only chinese novels in the market were these kinds. Only these worked nothing else.

And what is the point of comparing what cant be analysed? Sure Japan and Korea has lot of good stuff that wont get translations because its niche too, What we can compare is what dominates the market and is actually sold. Which is all these abusive stuff.

I am someone who has Chinese novels from 2-10 in my top 10 with KR one at no 1 , but it simply doesn't change the fact they have extreme violent tropes and tend to be highly misogynistic.

and ofc for you who has native chinese, you simply will prefer those. Im someone who has no relation with either of the three countries thus I enjoy/hate their stuff equally.

World building isnt just all about territories, wars. It is the world that is used in the story itself. Haruhi uses multiple locations as key plot points and the subconcious world haruhi makes are related to those.
Mayou shows the dozens of demonic tribes and countries who each have a different culture and situations, it deals with them individually.

Like you say, it is your personal preference on what you enjoy. What I said is what I feel objectively about the three mediums, Does it stop me from reading it? Nope. I just go in with those expectations and enjoy the ride.

and from chinese - You will enjoy Reverend Insanity, Ze Tian Zi (Way of choices) then.

 

It's untrue because you're arguing that a large proportion of Chinese books are like that. That may be true of the books you're reading, but I literally don't read anything like that, and I primarily read Chinese novels.

The only thing worth reading in "Haruhi" are the characters. The world building is very unexciting because it feels too artificial. The same goes for "Mayouu" except with even worse characterization and a worse plot - the writer was literally making story choices by asking people on a forum.

Personal preference works to a degree, but it doesn't factor in so much when we're comparing more concrete story elements like world building. With those, it's possible to use more objective criteria.

I mean I get it if you think that there are Japanese novels out there that have good world building. In fact, I'd agree to an extent. However, we're mostly talking about web novels in this thread, and I don't think it's reasonable to use a few exceptional examples to generalize that their quality should qualify as a particular strength of Japanese novels in general. Related to this, Chinese novels have some of the best world building I've ever come across. But I still wouldn't call it a particular strength of Chinese books because not all of them are good at this and if you don't read certain kinds of books it won't help you much.

 

Same here.
I started with anime. I watched all the animes I liked. None left.
So, I moved on to mangas. I read all the mangas I liked. None left.
So, I moved on the japanese light novels. I read all the ones I liked. None left.
So, I shifted to chinese and korean. I read it all I liked, none left.
At the moment, I only watch one anime (mahouka koukou), follow several mangas (instant death, opm original, HxH, I'm the sorcerer king).
As for light novels, I don't read any japanese except mahouka and overlord summaries from wikia. I don't read any korean or chinese novels except re-reading Reverend Insanity for the 4th time.

 

no jujutsu kaisen? watch iiiiit now!

 

For me, JP novels are too detached from reality and their culture. Many of these novels might be superior to CN novels in many ways but they lack that something that grounds the novel and makes it possible to immerse yourself. Ofcourse, this is from the perspective of a foreigner. Maybe this lack of culture (from my perspective) is a form of culture for the Japanese.

This isn't a problem in most CN novels because of language and culture. For better or worse, CN authors incorporate their language and culture into their novels which makes them more believable. Maybe 'believable' here isn't the right word, more like 'easier to adjust' or 'more immersive'. CN authors shove their 'way of life' right down your throat, whether you like it or not.

 

To the OP: Liking novels/genres is subjective. Taste changes over time. So does interest in various genres, story types etc. No point in asking others why you don't like something. Ask yourself, or just don't give a damn and read what you like.

To the argument about advantages/disadvantages of JP novels:

I've been following Japanese Anime/Manga/Novels for over 10 years now. The writing style, the templates and other stuff naturally changed over the course of time, depending on authors, current trends, etc., but the general set up of JP characters as in what they do and how they act in various situations hasn't changed much over the course of those years. Why is that so?

Most people tend to forget that JP novels are written for a JP audience. And Japanese have a certain social, cultural, and political environment which naturally form their values. As with every country, and maybe even more so in Japan's case, those things differ from other countries, especially if compared to Western civilizations. Hence it's only natural that Western readers clash with Japanese values since they are strange or alien to them. There's nothing wrong about that, but saying that JP novels suck because the stories written for Japanese don't fit with your values makes kind of no sense. If you dislike JP novels focusing on food, having characters that seem beta to you, etc., then read works from your country, where those values are different. Otherwise just go with the flow, and accept things for what they are.

By the way, Japan has also novels that cover other genres, and other writing styles, but funnily, or maybe sadly (?), those aren't read much by many readers. If you look at the popular JP novels on NU, it's mostly isekai novels with harems and all those things many have cited as disadvantages of JP novels in this thread. In other words, it's a fact that many JP novel readers on NU like to read those kind of stories. And translators pick up novels they believe might be read by many others. Why? Because it's boring and pointless to translate a novel that's not read by anyone.

Oh, and one more thing: Many of the JP novels people would call good or flag as popular end up getting licensed by English publishers. And most Fan TLs stop translating licensed novels. So that doesn't help the variety on NU either. ;-)

 

It's because the stories are extremely self-referential. They all iterate on one another with very little influence from other sources. With no new blood getting introduced, the stories are just going to seem more and more familiar.

I'd say that this is wrong on two fronts. The first is that Japanese webnovels are not written a Japanese audience; they're specifically written for an otaku audience. And in doing so there's remarkably little actual Japanese culture in these books, and even less influence from regular Japanese literature.

The more important issue is that the content isn't the reason why Japanese webnovels are bad - it's because the writers are bad at writing and they don't put any effort into getting better.

There are other kinds of Japanese webnovels out there, but they're not that popular in Japan either! All of the top books on Syosetu are translated in some way so it's not as if there's some sort of popular book in Japan that we know nothing about. Your point about weaker Japanese novels getting translated because that's where the readership is does make some sense but it would be more convincing if you were talking about Chinese web novels because NU really does miss the full picture there.

 

You make it sound as if no new authors ever join the ranks and all of them only copy from each other. Of course authors are influenced by other authors. That happens in every genre. You read books, and feel like writing something similar, or an author sees that a certain of story sells, and tries to imitate it. There are many reasons why authors might choose to go with a certain type of story. Same happens with authors all around the world, see the plethora of Star Wars or Harry Potter fanfics, just for example. You will also find certain patterns in classical Western literature if you go by era.

Putting aside that I'd label anime/manga/light novels as part of the mainstream nowadays, are Japanese otaku no Japanese? They don't have the same basic values as other Japanese people? A different kind of race, is that what you're calling them? Because if not, your argument doesn't address what I said at all.

Also, who are you to judge who's good or bad? Or whether they try to improve or not? I mean, if you're talking about webnovels, those are written by hobby/amateur writers. You expect all of them to write wonderful works that could be awarded the Pulitzer award or something? Are all the books on the various western hobby writer platforms phenomenal works that just wait to be picked up by a publisher with their authors eternally getting better with each work they write?

What do you actually know about what's popular in Japan? Because if you want to know what novels are popular in Japan, you might want to consult book selling and review sites first before making such a generalized statement. If you limit it to Syosetsu and the webnovels on it (which I didn't, seeing as you replied to me), then sure, you're right, the top-ranking ones have been mostly translated and are known on NU, often because they also have LN versions, manga adaptions, and anime productions. But what does that tell you about popular books in all of Japan?

I understand from your reply that you don't like Japanese webnovels (correct me if I'm wrong). So why read them? Just read other novels from other countries that suit your tastes. You're totally free to do so. But generally calling a large group of people as being inapt and incapable just because their works don't suit your taste sounds like a very questionable approach to me, and weakens your own argumentation.

 

If you're looking for something that doesn't have all these issues, I recommend Lord of Mysteries and My Senior Brother is Too Steady. They're both completed novels.

 

Sure, that can happen. But it's super rare because books can have terrible writing and still be popular. In just about any other writing groups I can think of, the author will bring in a lot of outside material: the things he's reading, what he's watching, his hobbies, his work experience, or his life experience. And if you read a lot of these Japanese webnovels that just doesn't happen very often.

I'd also like to be on the record in not minding it when writers copy one another. In fact, if the work is interesting enough, I want to see other writers copy from it and to learn from it. Specifically I'm thinking of "Kenkyo, Kenjitsu". It's one of the formative books of the Villainess subgenre, and I think it's terrific. It's super popular so you'd think that there would be a ton of imitators, and there are. The problem though is that these imitators seem to have no idea why that book is good so they end up being vastly inferior.

The otaku are an ostracized group in Japan. Most Japanese people will think of them as weirdos that don't fit in with the rest of society. You can think of it as a cult that only consumes material within their circle.

I'd like to see competent writing. Something with good characterization, well composed dialogue, strong themes; stuff like that. This stuff isn't that subjective, and it doesn't have all that much to do with taste either. For example, if a writer doesn't want to put in the work to tell the reader what his kingdom looks like or what it's name is, it's cut and dry that the world building is bad.

I get the hobby/amateur argument, but I don't think it holds any water. I read amateur Chinese writers all the time, and the quality of their writing is vastly superior. It doesn't necessarily mean that these books are always good, but they tend to show basic writing skills and the like. With the Japanese equivalent, there's no artistry in the prose or the dialogue. It's very perfunctory and there's little effort put into making it entertaining.

Incorrect: I think that Japanese webnovels are terrible in general, but I still like reading them. In fact, I tend to read isekai novels because they can be full of wonderful ideas.

 

Oh, welcome to the club. Went the same path as you.

 

I can’t relate. For me, both CN and JP are filled with 80 percent trash, but I have better luck enjoying JP novels more than I do CN Novel. I haven’t read any Korean novels so I won’t judge on that. Within NUF, I’ve read nearly all of the popular ones that comes from China and Japan, but after reading one Xianxia, I felt as though I get more tired of those tropes more than those of Isekai’s one. Probably because the length between those novels are drastically different, so I take in more time getting disgusted by the tropes that would still appear after thousands of chapters (CN) than those that will only appear a few time in a few volume (JP).

And looking through this thread, I feel a lot of generalization going on here. Like, for example, “ JP novels are terrible in general,” or that “ China’s amateur writers are superior most of the time,” even though from my perspective that’s not true. Also, your version of terrible may be different from my version of terrible. I don’t have any problems with any of JP novels dialogues nor do they feel childish, but I do have plenty of problems in CN writing where they put contrived situations where the lost of virginity is needed to cure a female cultivators, or that a character just murder/abandoned people all the time.

Let just say that after reading CN novels, I have gotten bored of it as well. Same with JP.

 

I got bored of reading the same stories, most of them were just a rehash of one another.
Moved on to xianxia, and eventually got tired of that, too.
KR tower/gate novels became the new thing then they, too, got boring but were still varied enough to keep my interest.
Got into !FORBIDDEN CONTENT! for a while out of pure boredom with the find random novel feature.
I've been reading rrl/sh/wp the past year and attempted kindle unlimited, but gave that up too.

I don't even know anymore, lol. I want more of xyz story, but the offerings available are either too similar to what I've already read, or too far out of my strike zone. I will say, however, that the typical JP WN invertebrate is the almost the worst type of character of all (after the overbearing arch-misogynist CEO sociopath). They are worse than the cultivator murderhobo rapists, worse than the overpowered harem seeking KR delvers, awful western YA vampire crap and even those terribad modern comic book heroes.

I think it's just because they are so horrendously pathetic, and once you are aware of the recurring theme it becomes unbearable. I just get the feeling "I'm too old for this shit". I am trying to be less picky, though.

 

Probably because the JP novels you're reading are aimed at youth....