Spoiler Overgeared

Discussion in 'Spoilers' started by Midnight Rain, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. Aristes

    Aristes [Archiver of idea], [Harbinger of the Fall]

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    Yay a mudfight!!
     
  2. LordDanny

    LordDanny 《Duke of Chaos》

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    More like a fight that destroys the Resources of Overgeared Kingdom! If Rabbit can see them, then this means that they are in Reinhardt—the Capital of Overgeared Kingdom. So why are they fighting in the Reinhardt or even near it?!
     
  3. Aristes

    Aristes [Archiver of idea], [Harbinger of the Fall]

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    Somewhere far but close enough for eyes to see.
    Children in Reinhardt: "YAY! RAINING MUD!!"
    Mothers surrounding Reinhardt: "GET INSIDE, NOW!"
    Children: "awww!!"
     
  4. Feanor

    Feanor Well-Known Member

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    My criticism of the author lies in unreasonable strengthening of the protagonist without passing the tests.
    1. How to get the Sword Dance for the Great Swordsman? - Raise the technique to the maximum level (presumably 10).
    2. How to get the unity of the technique of sword and magic? - Learn magic.
    3. With the third improvement from Chiyu, everything is fair, this is the test reward. Suspicion is only caused by the strength of the opponents, is there really no strong rival among the Yangban or players other than Mir.
    The execution of each item takes a lot of time and effort, but this is a test that the main character must pass. What does it look like for Grid - luck that falls from the sky:
    1. Receiving a Blessing for possessing 1 out of 7 skills (not luck). I suppose this should be a punishment, since he abandoned the difficult path (against Rebecca), and the improved skill will stop developing (or he will have to pump Sword Mastery back to the level of the Great Swordsman), but here Pope Chreshler comes to the rescue. And it would be understandable if he also gave the quest to seal Mary Rose, but he is a reward just like that (isn't it luck?).
    2. Grid received the second legendary class and the magic of Braham, but he did not try hard to study it. He never fully followed Braham's quest and even blamed him, but again gets a "hidden piece" (isn't it luck?).
    3. Grid received the third improvement honestly for the Chiyu test, but again the Grandmaster of 1/7 abilities gave a chance (isn't it luck?).

    Grid himself did not contribute anything to the skill, everything was spontaneous. If he created items or learned the "skill of dancing" and with their help improved the skill, then that would be his contribution. It's ridiculous about using maneuvers of dance to evade or defend, because it's the basis of skill.

    Yes, the legendary blacksmithing skill increases more slowly, but Grid has access to better materials, it is easier for him to get help from the dwarves. Therefore, here his efforts are simply overestimated. Rather, he pays for his greed.

    Kraugel's only possible luck is Bibian's gift. Unlike Grid, he did not receive the basic technique with a class change and must collect it by passing the test.

    Again, Grid has too many good encounters. Especially the Epic system, which comes to his aid in the midst of the battle, and does not have a clear sequence. Example:
    - Now. Grid fights Berith, writes Epic and becomes stronger, defeats Berith.
    - Must be. Grid fights Berith, defeats Berith, writes an epic and becomes stronger.
     
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  5. Saltmaster64

    Saltmaster64 Member

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    I’m glad that sword ghost is getting some love. One of my favorite weapons in the novel.
     
  6. Aristes

    Aristes [Archiver of idea], [Harbinger of the Fall]

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    Why not just crystalized the blood before it were crafted?
     
  7. LordKarsus

    LordKarsus Well-Known Member

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    It's true that Grid has many lucky encounters. That's often true of protagonists. Most heroes in the real world also have an element of luck to their success.

    But aside from that, Grid benefits from being very active in high opportunity situations, and he has the benefit of being able to make friends with powerful people.

    Achieving mutual respect with the powerful / wealthy, is often useful.
     
  8. Saltmaster64

    Saltmaster64 Member

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    I don’t think he can control the blood sword well enough without attaching it to sword ghost until he gets more points in his dominance stat.
     
  9. Culaio

    Culaio Well-Known Member

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    You are forgeting that this isnt real world but game world that follows specific rules, game like rules.

    seems that condition to unlock true "Great Swordsman Pagma's Sword Dance" is to posses 'Great Swordsman’ title, something it seems you need to unlock through very specific means, this title unlock sword energy for the owner of title.

    Expect Grid couldnt do it in normal way, he litereally couldnt learn magic in normal way, thats one of game rules this artifical world follows, seems magic is normally limited to classes, first time grid could learn the most BASIC magic was when he taken dragon pill, when his mana core expanded, so there are certain limits put on players, but creators of satisfy world let players work around this limitations, thats why grid who wasnt supposed to learn magic with his class was able to do so. Keep in mind that multi-classing doesnt work same way as in other rpg games, you need to fulfil specific conditions to do so, thats why grid doesnt keep his orginal class(warrior) along with his Pagma's Successor class.

    Keep in mind that Chiyu has its own goals and the way things went may have been part of his plan.

    I would argue that it was result of choices he made, it is possible that there were many alternative ways to get this blessing, all being related to Seven Malignant Saints plot. We dont know if that incomplete version of "Great Swordsman Pagma's Sword Dance" was levelable.
    Also Pope scenario could been one of many possible ways to unlock complete version of this skill, I think it would make sense if there were many ways, because it would be big problem if player could lock himself out from progressing his combat skill permamently in this GAME world.

    Grid gaining class from Braham is luck true but also unluck, Grid is orginally unsuited for this class, he actually is still very unsuited for it, it would fit much more someone who already was a magician, because grid orginal class doesnt really have good compability with it, leveling magic grid got from braham is very hard, but grid still works on this magic, we at very least saw Grid level up Magic Detection spell, its more then likely grid did level up his spells, but the fact they arent main focus is because grid sword dances are superior to magic he has,magic missle is pretty weak, and can be mostly used as distraction, Magic Detection is useful but most of time not useful in combat unless enemy has ability to hide. and so on, blood magic may be the thing that will bring magic into focus.

    Once again I would argue its not luck but part of Chiyu goals(his storyline)

    Using maneuvers of dance to evade or defend is NOT basis of this skill, did you forget that it was said in the story that basis of sword dances was ritual/ceremonial dance, its staging a ceremony through a body ritual. it was said that that it had unnecessary and unhelpful movements in combat. There were many forced movements because each sword dance visualized a specific object or concept. Grid used those flaws and turned them into strengthens and he also "minimized the useless behavior by evolving the sword dance itself"

    Better materials doesnt always mean its easier, actually it may be even harder, look how hard it was for grid to work on fire dragon sword, Fire Stone Filled with the Breath of the Fire Dragon material was extremly hard to work with.
    Dwarfs can probably teach him some special crafting techniques but as blacksmith grid surpassed dwarfs, I mean Grid reached god tier in blacksmithing, maybe he isnt fully on hextia level but he is closer then anyone to that level.

    We dont really know what things Kraugel went through to become sword saint, he had his own specific quests he needed to complete to become sword saint, Sword Saint Candidate is a title that has five stages that needed to be completed to become sword saint, one of things it unlocks is super sensitivity., he must also have unlocked Great Swordsman title like grid because its needed to unlock sword energy, also its description mentions "The closest person to becoming a sword saint in this age." As a reader we will never know what he went through to reach this level, also you can say that meeting with grid was LUCK for him, because grid unlocked his sword power and he also he made for him sword to his specifications.
     
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  10. JHI

    JHI Well-Known Member

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    Grid gained too many random power-ups from lucky encounters and hidden pieces. Some of these are not so random and perfectly legitimate. The go to examples here are gaining Pagma's various dances from Randy was Satisfy's arrangement and gaining Chiyou's secret technique which included Grid to perform a difficult feat for players. Some hidden pieces are available for everyone and they just happened to be acquired by Grid. For example, gaining Zeratul's blessing/God's command, buying Madra's Diary, and being taken to Peach Blossom Spring by Bentao could have been done by anyone. Agnus gained a similar power-up (supreme command) by killing one of the top 3 rankers of every (normal?) classes. While Grid didn't grind for this, it's still fine. Being in the right place at right time happens to protagonists and while such cases are not as unproblematic as the previous ones I mentioned, you can still suspend your disbelief. I.e. Grid just happened to arrive when Pope Drevigo was fighting Damian, 4 direct descendants met...

    The real problematic cases are when some random major power-up comes to Grid out of nowhere and this is exclusive to him and him alone. He randomly gained MSotE class from Braham when the latter could have done it anytime he wanted including in their reunion at the sword grave but didn't for some reason. This was a hidden quest doesn't cut it. Braham randomly gave Grid a major power-up and it's not clear he could do this to anyone else even if he wanted to. Grid also didn't choose which magic should be associated with which sword dance. Perhaps he might have preferred using grease with Kill to trip down the opponents rather than the detection magic. Similarly, he cannot replace one of the magics with another. I.e. he cannot replace the shield in wave with decoy. It feels like Grid gained a power-up because the story demanded it and this isn't possible for any of the other character. Even some people at SA group were seriously considering if Grid wasn't excited because this was purely based on luck. Another completely lucky encounter is meeting Chreshler. He just happened to be one of the characters which could show Grid how Pagma used sword energy and gave him a power-up he would have gotten out of nowhere. Why couldn't Braham do that while he was living in Grid's head or why didn't Franz propose it as a reward for resurrecting Braham? Edit: I can't tell you why Grid didn't get the chop dance after witnessing the footwork in Pagma's fight.

    And then there are the epics. They are usually executed well but there are 3 problematic ones. The epic with Pagma gave Grid the dragon dance. Dragon should have been one of the earliest sword dances Pagma created since it was based on the last attack of Blue Dragon unlike drop which was created way later after he witnessed the reality of gods. So why didn't Grid inherit that before? The bigger problem was with the tortoise epic. It gave no unique rewards unlike every other epic. No titles, no skills, no item power-ups. It just increased Grid's status which made him ponder his flaws and gave him access to the skill synthesis system. This is due to increase in status and not a unique reward of the epic which gave jack shit. Finally, why was 11th epic a thing? Grid told Nefelina she wasn't his servant but this is the first time the epic completely ignored what Grid said and stated that Grid made the member of a solitary tribe his servant. The epics could give all kinds of power-ups to Grid and it's sometimes to difficult to be on board with rewards.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
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  11. Culaio

    Culaio Well-Known Member

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    Other then dominance stat there may be another factor that may affect control over blood sword, the level of this spell, blood magic like normal magic has levels like any other skills.

    Story excuse that lead to braham engraving magic on sword dances which lead to creation of MSotE class is the fact that Braham saw that Grid is not able to properly use magic he learned from Braham with his fighting style, so he in a way modifed magic to fit in with grid's fighting style(sword dance) and by doing this he made grid no longer being able to be defined by classes he had(pagma succesor and duke of wisdom), sword dances are defined by pagma class and magic by duke of wisdom but magic enchanced sword dances are something that cant be defined by either of them alone thats the explanation for the new class.
     
  12. Feanor

    Feanor Well-Known Member

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    The rules of the game world must be completely illogical, right? Like "I upgraded advanced sword mastery into beginning sword mastery. Why? Because that's the rules of the game world."
    You have a bunch of examples of how a skill moved to a new stage after reaching a mastered. But for Sword Dance, this is against the rules of the game. And nothing that Piaro, after reaching a mastered in Supreme Swordsmanship, became the Great Swordsman. Logic is not for us.

    It all looks something like this:
    - Now that you have become a Descendant of Pagma, you can learn any skill you want, but NEVER LEARN Magic.
    - But I have become a Legendary Great Magican.
    - You cannot be taught magic. NEVER! There are no second classes. Magic doesn't suit you. You cannot increase the core of mana.

    Mages who dodge while casting, archers who try to maintain distance and maintain accuracy while firing, knights who counterattack while blocking are all noobs. Here is a professional Grid, he knows how to use a super-duper complex dance.

    And the fact that he immediately promoted the skill when creating this sword is pure coincidence.

    How do I get a legendary class? Kraugel: Complete a series of quests and defeat the legend. Grid: Find a book in a random cave.
    How to get your class skills? Kraugel: Search and clear special dungeons. Grid: Accidentally meet a couple of NPCs.
    How do I get 1 of 7 abilities? Kraugel: Complete a series of challenging and hidden quests. Grid: Randomly hit the Bosses 2 times.
    Luck? I do not think so.

    You forgot to mention that Hurent will soon receive the "Rune of Wind and Lightning", and Chiyou deliberately moved back in time to help Grid find Pagma's Book.
     
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  13. Aristes

    Aristes [Archiver of idea], [Harbinger of the Fall]

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    Honestly, I only gets some of the points you're sayint, most were ????? [Error: unable to process].
    Sure somehow the author had some unreasonable way to make Grid stronger through occurences and events that always shatter Morpheus prediction, then again, the guy was one of the five miracles.
    One that defy against the odds, Grid become what he is now all because his tenacity and stern determination to change his fate.
    We read Grid's past and honestly I want to pat his shoulder (if he were to be real). Though when you said Mage who evade and Archer who distanced themselves as noob. That's was like saying Braham was a pro level noob for inventing enhanced teleport or Jishuka who fought with evasion and precision in close combat fight.
     
  14. Feanor

    Feanor Well-Known Member

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    Lol This is called sarcasm. My entire post is in it.
     
  15. Aristes

    Aristes [Archiver of idea], [Harbinger of the Fall]

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    Ah, do I just dissect your frog or did I fell into a hole?
     
  16. Aristes

    Aristes [Archiver of idea], [Harbinger of the Fall]

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    QQ: Were this idea validable?

    Were all this valid reasons?
     
  17. Culaio

    Culaio Well-Known Member

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    Just we cant see logic at first in something doesnt mean there is no logic there, not every thing follows same rules, for example divinity and deity stats dont follow same rules as all other stats, actually quiet a few stats have their own rules, many stats cant be upgraded from stat bonus from crafting high tier gear.

    skill also can have special rules, like skill being "upgraded" into stat, as we see with super sensitivity. I dont see you complaning about Kraugel Super Sensitivity skill being suddenly "upgraded"(downgraded at the beginning but upgraded in the long run) through quest that upgraded his class, Yes Kraugel didnt upgrade this skill through leveling but through quest.

    Also there is evidence that the Great Swordsman title doesnt exactly work same way for all classes, I mean it seems to be step toward being sword saint but there is no evidence of pagma successor class ever having an option to go toward becoming sword saint.
    But the biggest evidence of the great swordsman not working same for classes is super sensitivity skill I mentioned above, it is said that The active version of Super Sensitivity is a Great Swordsman's skill. The skill is an indication of the title, yet there is no evidence of Pagma having this skill, Grid doesnt have it and Piaro doesnt have it and also Mercedes doesnt have it(she uses sword energy so she got to have Great Swordsman title), So yeah there is a lot more to Great Swordsman title.

    You missed my point, its not that you cant learn magic, its that you cant learn magic normal way, you can learn it through special means, like second class, keep in mind that having second class in this game world is a lot harder then in real life rpgs with multiclasses, dont you remember how big of a deal it was when Huroi become first person to gain second class ?
    If Grid tried to learn magic through normal means, dunno how exactly it works in this world, like if there is school of magic or something, but if he gone there it would most likely lead to game asking if he wants to change class to magician and if he refuses he would be blocked from learning magic through this way.

    Also another point you got wrong is that you said that grid can learn any skill but magic, this is wrong as a whole, Grid class like any class has predisposition, he can learn through normal means most of crafting skills that overlap with his role as blacksmith through normal means, but he cant learn normal way crafting skills that dont overlap with his blacksmithing, we dont see Grid learning accessory making skills which is why he needed help from Elizabeth, Grid also cant become archtect through normal means.

    ALL classes have this type of limitations, warrior cant learn magic normal way, and magician cant learn sword skills normal way but nothing stops them from learning such stuff through special means, I mean nothing stops warrior from learning magic mastery from skill book or magician from learning weapon mastery from skill book.

    This is bad comparison because "steps" are part of process of sword dance, part of prcoess of executing action. in a way steps are like magic incantation of spell, so better comparison would be magician using magic incantation(not spell itself) for attack spell as defensive maneuver, or archer using action of string pulling when preparing to shot as defensive maneuver. Grid is using process of executing attack as defense, that is the difference from what you said.

    Or maybe he just did something extraordinarily hard that no one else currently can achieve with their skills...

    He had his blacksmithing skill maxed out on that tier and he needed push to go to next tier, that push was to craft something amazing which was extraordinarily hard.

    There are MANY ways to gain new classes, by the way, Do you remember how Huroi had to wait 50 real hours in game to get second class ? or how to unlock saintess class ruby as level 1 player needed to be willing to sacrifice herself for npcs.

    By the way Grid did NOT found book with his class in random cave it was part of QUEST, it was S-grade quest that forced grid to go to dangerous zone...

    Also different classes have different means of progressing its normal. pagma successor class is first and fore mostly crafting class so its only natural its progression wont be tied to being best at fighting but on learning stuff related to crafting, sword saint on other hand is probably the most combat focused class so of course it will have progression tied to fighting.

    What are you on about... Chiyou started helping grid after he saw that he has potential to help him achieve his goal...


    I will not claim there was no luck involved because there definitly was but not everything is result of luck, a lot grid achieved through effort...working on things hours and hours, multiple days in a row...
     
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  18. Melegant

    Melegant Well-Known Member

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    So now Grid is basically training with Braham and I thought that during the fight maybe he will get a kind of quest like when he challenged Piaro trying to make turn back to be a swordsman. Maybe it's more of a class quest to help him grow his 2nd and 3rd classes after all even through Grid has magic in his swordsmanship in the end even if it's enhanced magic it's still basic magic so there are limitations and he has important skills that are still low leveled such as: [Matchless Heart Technique], [Grid's Sword Dance(it's still just level 2 even through I understand that the experience proficiency is low and the sword dance dragon from Pagma is still low leveled )]
    Maybe if he can upgrade the magic attached to his swordsmanship and level up a bit counting that from what I understood he hadn't leveled up after drasion raid so I hope that now he will train with Braham and go hunting to level up and maybe kill some dragon related species so that the fire dragon sword become stronger even if just a bit I think it's still very fine.
     
  19. dereonlad

    dereonlad Well-Known Member

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    I won't say much about non-legendary class acquisition quests with reductionism added:

    Grid = Go on an arduous journey and find a book in a cave.

    Kraugel = beat a legend. Though that legend was a barely seasoned Grid.

    Oasis - Defend Lubana for 30 days against the red knights. Single digit red knights were stronger than player legends at that time.
    Yura - First Yatan servant player to reject demon race change reward
    Jishuka = Beat a legend
    Faker = Kill the head of Eclipse - basically beat a legend
    Euphemia - Liberate Mumud's soul - which means beating a legend

    So apart from Yura, his class acquisition quest was relatively easy, with Oasis or Euphemia perhaps having the most difficult quest based on their contexts.

    I think the main problem is the idea the author had the the legends changed after the first several hundreds of chapters. It felt like they were all needed or that together they had a purpose along with their ancestor NPC's backstory which would save the Satisfy world in the endgame.

    Now, the legends are just something to promote characters to certain tiers without giving them the gravitas of feeling the weight of their predecessor legends backstory.
     
  20. Feanor

    Feanor Well-Known Member

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    1. Absolutely Stats are not Skills.
    Divinity is a unique skill with a detailed description of the increase.
    There are no Skills that would go into Stat.
    The title of "Great Swordsman" works the same for everyone.
    The "Super Sensitive"(skill) belongs to the title of "Sword Saint's Candidate", not the "Great Swordsman".
    THE LAST ARGUMENT: The game has a variety of weapon mastery and craft skills. Each of them passes from 1 to 9 levels, and then develops into a new one. It is possible for a jump due to some quest or event, but this does not break the system. There is no reason for the Sword Dance to be an exception.
    2. He is already a Legendary Great Mage and is free to study magic.
    The system does not put any restrictions, it all depends on the player. The class defines class items, but no one bothers to learn other skills.

    3. "Steps" are only part of the "Sword Dance" skill. Learning to use your skill is the basics.
    4. By using highly rated materials, you get better results and a quick increase in production skills.
    5. Kraugel's merit is the result of 90% effort and 10 luck. For Grid, that's 70% luck and 30% effort.
    6. Chiyou does not help anyone, but only gives tests.
     
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