Their society is very different from ours, from their pov the Peaceful Faction are radical extremists, from our pov it's just a minor adjustment of policies.
You are ignoring the actual information. Again Heinz himself directly admits to the matter of suspecting the Ghouls of not being undead and yet did nothing. This alone proves A LOT and pushing it off to the side and instead focusing on minor events we don't get much details on is ignoring clear evidence. You're trying to use the vagueness of the situation with the Majin to defend him while constantly putting down the example that clarifies what he's been doing. In all likelyhood he probably suspected the Majin weren't pure evil either and also did nothing. But I won't say for sure since we didn't get that in writing. But at the very least similar to with the Ghouls he could have TRIED to stop and see if they could be reasoned with. Again you are manufacturing excuses. The point I keep making that you keep disregarding is that god's are not infallible in their world. Whether that fault be from corruption of evil god's or not the fact is they can make mistakes. and they are OTHER LEGENDS that don't involve evil god corruption that still imply god's can make mistakes. Remember when evidence came that Fitun was behind the monsterhord the higher ups had little trouble believing it. Meaning it's reasonable to expect a person to be CAPABLE of doubting a god when their commands seem suspect. That is the main point. Heinz was ALWAYS capable of doubting Alda and chose not to. Instead choosing to make up his own logic to justify Alda as simply being misunderstood in regards to clearly evil acts like the murder of Darcia. But he still shuts his eyes from questioning anything beyond that The point I was making is why are you so desperate to use such warped logic to defend him? If you want to argue he's not a villain we aren't saying he is If you want to argue he means well we agree But you seemingly want to make him out to be a genuine hero and righteous person. But that is CLEARLY NOT TRUE. Sure in his mind he's doing what's right but he only thinks that way after intentionally shutting his eyes to the truth and avoiding inconvenient situations. yes I do know. You just ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to accept a word I am saying. Black doesn't turn white just because you say it does and if you didn't notice no one is agreeing with you anymore. You're not the only one to not hate heinz or say he's not evil but the stubborn extremes you have gone to are excessive and CLEARLY go against the author's intent. I mean damn can you not read narative flow? IT's clear what the author is setting Heinz up as and while some details are debatable the narative you seem to be pushing for just clearly isn't it. You ask me why he should ask? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE CLAIMS HE'S IS DOING! He is loudly priclaiming to the world he's seeking out peace with the races of Vida and rooting out injustice. You don't find an underground slave trafficking's ring standing around and hoping they show up. You need to actually ASK QUESTION! You need to INVESTIGATE! Both the Slave Titains and the Scylla were major incidents that were very much public even if the average person didn't take too much note. You're trying to act like Heinz had no obligation to do anything and it's perfectly fine for him to just not try to look into it. But he's proclaiming himself a hero seeking to save the very people he's mostly ignoring. He also knows the Scylla are also races of Vida but because they have ranks he's not regarding them as people because that is his perception. But it was that same mistake that lead him to handing over Darcia. So again he's not asking questions he knows he should be asking. Another point you are CONSTANTLY IGNORING is the fact Heinz himself admits to as much. When confronted by Van about his lack of action in those incidents he either admits to intentionally turning a blind eye and doing nothing or he tries to turn the blame on Van and condemn him for how he chose to solve the problem. You can't pretend he's somehow guiltless when the story spells it out for you. You're intentionally ignoring what the story is spelling out to push a narrative that simply doesn't exist. All to defend a simgle fictional character who, regardless of reasons, is an antagonist to the MC. There is seriously no reason to be so desperate to defend him. P.S. At this point I'm just done. I've reached the point of literally having to repeat information more than once because you aren't willing to accept it. I don't have anything more to say or prove as anyone with the patience to read all the posts can see for themselves. But going in circles is just a waste of time
God, I need to learn how to do multi-piece quotes on this platform... Someone teach me later, please... First rebuttal: Criminal slaves are placed into eternal servitude to atone for their crimes, and therefore can never be redeemed because they can never finish atoning? Alda taught specifically that anyone can be redeemed. This is the reason Vida was so horrified that Alda refused to give the turncoat Evil Gods an opportunity to prove themselves, because it was so antithetical to his own tenets! The idea of unending criminal servitude is therefore, essentially, blasphemy against Alda's scriptures! Which leads to my second rebuttal: Yes. Because the idea that someone is beyond redemption is literally heresy to a proper Alda-believer based off of what we know of his teachings, Heinz should go around buying up all the criminal slaves he can afford in order to offer them a chance to start over and prove themselves reformed in accordance to his own faith. This is legal in Lambda; Green-Spear Riley made an entire party of psychopathic mass-murderers that he purchased. Is this practical or rational, either in-story or in real life? Definitely not. But if Alda's word is law, then his believers have a duty to do this regardless; common sense isn't a major selling-point of the Alda Religion in the first place, as we are all aware. It's not like Heinz was lacking in resources to do this either, as he was an A-Rank Adventurer at the time, and well on the way to S-Rank; he had enough money and political clout that if he wanted to save criminal slaves and reform them, he could have. He deliberately chose not to. Third rebuttal: If right-of-conquest is a valid means of determining land-ownership in Lambda, as it once was on Earth, then Vandalieu essentially re-conquered the territory that once was the Devil's Nest that the Mirg Shield-nation had driven him and his followers from. Therefore, it is completely up to his discretion what to do with the land, people, and resources thereon; naturally, he chose to loot the crops and poison the rest of the land in accordance to his right. The opinions of the Mirg Shield-nation on whether Ghouls have rights is completely irrelevant if they lack the strength to enforce their views. Ghouls do relocate their villages if they get discovered by adventurers, but they really can't evacuate the Devil's Nest entirely unless there is another one within about a night of travel-time. Context implies that the Devil's Nest that Zadiris's Tribe lived in had been inhabited by the Ghouls for several Ghoul lifetimes before Vandalieu found them, so, at least a millennium speaking conservatively. Human nations are stated in later chapters to be comparatively transient to those made by Vida's Races, rising, uniting, falling apart, then reforming again every few centuries in a constant cycle; it is very unlikely that the modern Mirg Shield-nation or the Amid Empire existed yet when the Ghouls first started living in that Devil's Nest, giving them a strong historical claim to the land if anybody cared enough to give them rights. The biggest point you made, however, and one that I unequivocally agree with, is that Heinz is ultimately what D&D'ers refer to as "lawful stupid." This is a true statement to his character. If something is legally codified, it must be right no matter how short-sighted or flat-out malevolent it happens to be. This is why I loathe his Alda-loving guts. Heinz has decided that it is more important to be lawful than it is to be moral, which is why he continues to make decisions that undermine his own goals. The fact that he runs away whenever he comes into an ideological conflict with local law indicates that he knows the difference between "legal" and "moral"; he actively chooses to do nothing about it even after he gains the kind of power and authority needed to make real, universally beneficial change.
What you do is you highlight the text you want to quote and press the "+quote" button. Then when you're ready to reply go to the bottom of the page and click the "InsertQuotes" button that should appear on the lower left of the text box if you have any quotes saved. You can use this to break up a single post to reply to each part by highlighting only a potion of the post, hitting +Quote, and then doing so for the next part as well. Multiple quotes can be stored so you don't need to insert until you're captured all the quotes you need to for you post.
Thank you, sir/madam/both/neither/toaster! I shall aspire to learn to wield this power you have granted me for the sake of GOOD!
just my 2 cents on the subject above, its real easy for us to say Heinz needs to be asking questions and doing a better job, but to him he can literally communicate with the god he worships. hell look at christians here on earth, god doesnt even talk to them and you have people who wont question the bible for a second and go around claiming to be championing for justice and peace despite it usually also marginalizing or attacking specific groups. im not trying to defend heinz or make excuses for him, because at this point hes seen more then enough proof that what hes trying to do and accomplish isnt the right way to go about it, im just trying to say that just because we all think its easy and obvious to heinz thatd pretty much be a world shattering decision to try to question alda and then find out alda is in fact wrong. another issue is that alda isnt actually law and justice he just claims whatever he says is even if it isnt, and thats not something heinz can really fix regardless.
Man, and those walls keep coming! I barely even wrote for my paid essays and here they do it for free!
Perhaps. But Heinz can just stop doing what Alda says if he feels that there's a problem. Alda can't do anything about it.
On an unrelated note. . . Your signature is mean . And yes, Heinz is an asshole. If Bellwood is the Alpha, Alda the Beta, Heinz is definitely the Omega.
While it is true that in his current state Heinz can comunnicate directly, it is doubtful the knowlegde he acquires in his current state will be with him completely as is once he goes back to his body, no to mention that greater gods exerts pressure on a different level than other gods like the goddes of slumber he is with right now, being unable to meet Alda is not only because author forgot , the whole thing with Heinz is that he wants to have an audience with Alda to question the need to exterminate Vida´s races, so he indeed has doubts, but is not stopping either way. Alda´s rationale is that Vida´s races bring harm to the wolrd thanks to them being able to coexist and strengthen devil´s nest, in order to purify the world those races must stop existing, he willing to accept them as familiar spirits because they are not ALL really evil, but leaving them alive is out of the question, once Heinz learns this he wil undoubtly do as Alda´s expecting of him and redeem himself of his wrong ways. This of course only applies to be truth because Alda´s already believes the Bahn Gaia continent to be the WHOLE World, already forfeiting the continents that he has no influence whatsoever.
oh sure, and like i said he definitely has seen direct proof hes in the wrong, and even felt issues with whats happened. but thats religious people for you man, theyll go out of their way to ignore/bend the truth to make it fit with their ideals and world views to convince themselves they're doing the right thing. i think what makes heinz so interesting is hes not even an evil antagonist, and not only that in a different world hes the mc of this story trying to stop the new demon king from another world from destroying the law and order in his home world, but since we've followed vans story and get to see it from his perspective we feel like heinz is so far in the wrong even though weve all probably read the stories where heinz is the mc of it. i purely mentioned that for the fact that direct communication couldnt be clearer proof his god is real, so its not like hes even following scripture or believing and hoping his god is real. he has literal proof his god exists and is the ruler of the world. thats all i meant by he can communicate with alda, that it directly proves to heinz hes following an actual god.
I see where you're coming from, and the first point at least is easy to refute. If he really was told by Bestero that Darcia was dangerous, and a follower of vampires serving evil gods, then the way he confronted her, loudly announcing himself and attacking her with his entire party either near the city gates (web novel) or in the town square (manga) is at best incredibly reckless. Then there's this line here "I have no grudge against you, but here is where you die." That is not something good guys do or say. That's something a mustachio twirling, tie a maiden to rail-road tracks villain would say and do, then after fleeing into Orbaume allows himself to be deluded that it was "just a tragic mistake" not an act of intentional malice. As for being fed false info in Bellwood's dungeon, even he saw it was suspicious as hell. He was openly mocked by Alda's familiars for wanting peace with Vida's races, saw all the "people" races in the safe towns as pristine saints beyond any shred of reality, and was forced into one battle to the death after another with every vida race in existence plus Van. When he gets the "Holy Mother Killer" title, he openly goes "damn it! We're clearly being played here" but rather than leave the dungeons and see the situation with his own eyes, he goes "our only option is to clear this dungeon and then question the guy who is clearly playing us to see what's really going on." For the final nail in the coffin, at least for what's been translated, he admits Van is right to want him dead, but tries to justify to himself as above Van's righteous grudge. "I have done things to you and your people that can not be undone, BUT I CAN NOT DIE HERE!" Much as his defenders try to paint him as "a good guy," he suffers from a terminal case of delusional self-righteousness and is pathologically incapable of admitting where he's wrong, or changing for the better. The longer he stays in the picture, the worse he's going to get. Edit: "Heinz is almost as delusional as Kouki from Arifureta" Actually, he's more like Motoyasu from Rising of the Shield Hero. He has to have people he sees as a friendly face tell him they're scum to his face before he believes them, and ignores all other forms of evidence as long as he can tell himself and everyone around that he's a "hero." Asagi is the Kouki expy here as he sees himself as having some kind of moral obligation to tell everyone else how to live.
Reply works as well, inserts the text straight into the comment text box wherever the cursor is there.
Just to be clear, the view on gods is different on this job compared to other jobs or even this world, god exist there, no one ever put that on doubt, there exist two currents to Alda´s believers there and Heinz just transformed to the peaceful faction, becoming their avatar by telling the whole world peaceful faction is the real one or Alda wouldnt be giving him his divine proteccion, while Alda´s reason for keeping said divine proteccion is that he believes Heinz will wake up from his worng ways. In the past gods would teach directly to the people, but now they can get oracles that some very few of them can undestand, so their doctrine splitting is no wonder after 100k years, but remenber that in a world where god do exist and have contraditing doctrines to each other like Alda and Vida, everyone is what you would call for this world standars as fanatics o,o
yes im aware of that, my point of bringing it up though is compared to our actual real life worlds where people belive in gods a lot more with a lot less evidence. and heinz not only believes in his god but can actually talk to him, so imagine if any religious person in our world could actively talk to their god and their god told them what to believe in. its easy for us on the outside to tell him to doubt and investigate but someone in his position would have a lot harder time breaking away from what theyve believed in their whole life to doubt and question it.
Exactly!! Please be kinder to Kouki, he really matured in the end unlike our very sad Heinz here hahaha
That is all completely true. BTW I don't want to get too IRL philisophical but just to use an IRL equivalent REAL QUICK. In IRl people who blindly believe what OTHER PEOPLE tell them about the bible and the will of god to be true can be a problem and this applies to listening to preachers and priests as well. It's fine to look to other people for quidance but YOU need to ultimately be the one to make a decision and own up to it. But far too many people try to just let their church do what for them and then go around acting superior as if they are guaranteed salvation simply for following a checklist presented to them by the church. But similar to Heinz just following a church/society approved checklist isn't enough. You need to do what you choose to be right and to do that you need to learn for yourself. You need to ask questions, you need to think, and you need to decide. If in the end you decide your church/society truely is right then it's fine then it's fine to keep doing the same. But you need to be careful and really ask yourself. Do you think it's right because you truely think so? Or just because that's what you've been conditioned to accept? Again Heinz isn't properly questioning his own beliefs enough. He started to but then he kind of cheated by using the peaceful faction's position as somewhat of a middle ground as his answer and ending his self reflection. He ultimately wasn't willing to doubt Alda which is fine in and of itself but then he did the one mistake far far too many people make. He made up his own conclusion of the will of his god based on convenience and then took it as fact. Although Alda would later choose to support Heinz out of desperation. It was more because he realized Van's peaceful nature would win the people over compared to his intolerant stance. So in order to avoid a complete loss he chose to allow the races of Vida without rank and make Heinz his new champion. But this was all after the fact of Heinz just kind of deciding that Alda had this desire all along and labeled the enemies of the peacful faction as radicals. That is true. But , playing devils advocate here, in Heinz defense in his mind he was simply doing as he was told and capturing someone wanted by the church. He had no personal hatred against her but still followed the church's will. He does reflect on this issue. But his problem becomes that while he becomes willing to doubt the church he's not willing to doubt his own world view or Alda. He refuses to question of Ghouls or officially recognized ranked races of Vida are truly bad and doesn't realize he's repeating the mistake with Darcia just with Alda instead of the church. He actually doesn't realize he's being played if I remember. Someone brings up the question about the title being related to Darcia but similar to the issue with the Ghouls he refuses to complete the thought and turns his eyes from it. He's not willing to challenge his own world view and simply ignores anything conflicting with it. Exactly. He changed after the matter with Darcia simply because his guilt became too great to ignore. The way Darcia was treated despite being fairly weak was so horiffic that even Heinz couldn't turn away from it due to his involvement. Hypothetically if a ghoul child, female because males are more monster like, were to run out screaming "mommy" and shield her mother as heinz tried to kill her. Then he might change his stance on them. But that would only be because he'd be in another situation where ignoring the truth shown to him isn't an option. Heinz only changes to preserve his hero complex, so as long as he can justify to himself it's not his fault or it's not wrong he won't question anything.
again i 100% agree, i think heinz is in the wrong and has had enough chances to realize that if he truly wanted to do what he says. my point was more of just there are plenty of people like heinz irl that also dont question things and just blindly believe what theyre told. so its not too far fetched for heinz to be doing mental gymnastics to make everything work out in his view that hes doing the right thing despite the clues stating otherwise. basically i see both sides of the argument, he should have noticed by now with all his experiences that what hes doing isnt completely right but there also arent a lot of people in his position that would actively try to challenge their views on the world and improve. the fault lies with him but its hard to blame him since most people in his position also wouldnt change. thats what makes him such a great antagonist though. he gets almost about the same amount of discussion as van does