Discussion Why no pure mage

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by Happyhour, May 29, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Happyhour

    Happyhour Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2017
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    32
    Reading List:
    Link
    So Ive been reading like a lot and noticed that almost all mage stories tend to go from true mage to magic swordsmen or body enchancers.

    What i want to know is why cant people stick on the path of writing true mages compared to branching off too getting in melee range.

    Give your thoughts and feelings on this matter
     
    Bad Storm, Munimuyi and UnGrave like this.
  2. UnGrave

    UnGrave ななひ~^^

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2016
    Messages:
    4,072
    Likes Received:
    12,832
    Reading List:
    Link
    Yeah screw those sporty riajuu! A true gamer only needs their mind to be powerful.
     
  3. zetsuen_dark

    zetsuen_dark [blue is the color of distance]⚓️

    Joined:
    May 7, 2020
    Messages:
    946
    Likes Received:
    3,064
    Reading List:
    Link
    if they were smart enough to use little abilities for movement and medium abilities for damage then maybe they'll be able to do just fine without burning mana but no..
     
    Munimuyi likes this.
  4. Munimuyi

    Munimuyi Chili <33

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2020
    Messages:
    378
    Likes Received:
    3,466
    Reading List:
    Link
    I agree ~!
     
  5. Happyhour

    Happyhour Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2017
    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    32
    Reading List:
    Link
    Ya i mean if i got reborn with all memorys got magic all i would need is fire and air and very powerful barrier magic all you need to remember is how to to split the atom.
    Or how to compress the mix of fire and air and run like *#%& and hope you out run your own boom
     
  6. Neiri

    Neiri Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2016
    Messages:
    3,173
    Likes Received:
    2,078
    Reading List:
    Link
    More of pragmatism, a pure mage is overspecialization and has a glaring weakness in melee that every enemy with a brain will exploit. There are two ways to fill it up , by body enhancing/magic enhancing and having bodyguards. Why just pick only one solution when you can get both afterall bodyguards can be avoided/neutralized by the enemy or magic nulled . There is also the question of compatibility, what if the enemy null long range magic but can be slayed in close range.

    One main reason though is the same reason why in Warhammer 40K there is still melee despite it be a sci fi , CAUSE IT'S COOL
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
    aintg likes this.
  7. Macrendil Ysmir

    Macrendil Ysmir Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2017
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    332
    Reading List:
    Link
    I thiink its a combination of familiarity and 'closeness'? We mere mortals can't truly envision a pure mage and keep it interesting throughout a story. The ones that do have a pure mage MC also use side-characters that are melee so the MC doesn't have to branch into Magic Swordsman.

    And for closeness well, its to be physically close to an enemy. To see their movements & read them, to speak and interact with an antagonist. It makes danger feel much closer and more imminent than tossing fireballs at a distant target.
     
    aintg likes this.
  8. 0000000

    0000000 I B SMILING!

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Messages:
    5,571
    Likes Received:
    5,494
    Reading List:
    Link
    I agree though, while there are very few stories that stay through to being pure mage aka ranged damage dealer plus buffs granter, most kind of just decided to hit the gym so as to bulk up.

    The only closest thing I can find is probably Zorian, he is my pick because:
    A. He has no innate talent.
    B. No fancy bloodline.

    And thus he is stuck with just using his mind magic and magic missle. He got upgraded to golemancy though, but nothing to buff his own body.

    Omni Magician (that shit CN novel) is one as well, cuz he has a harem.
     
    aShinyVaporeon likes this.
  9. Kairil

    Kairil Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2016
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    288
    Reading List:
    Link
    Well, because a gish is a man's romance?
     
  10. false

    false Today is always the best day ever~

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2015
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    170
    Reading List:
    Link
    What makes games feel good to play and what makes stories feel good to read is different.
    We're used to min-maxing for a bunch of reasons in games that features roles. Games design roles such that players can focus on different things and feel good about it. Multiplayer games want you to cooperate with other players because it brings them more players and because good cooperation is a very high skill thing that feels awesome to do.
    Stories want to give you an awesome main character to focus on so they just kinda try to make them be good at everything compared to everyone, as much as they can get away with it.
     
  11. UndyingSLIME10295

    UndyingSLIME10295 [•Figment of your Imagination•]

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2021
    Messages:
    1,213
    Likes Received:
    1,790
    Reading List:
    Link
    But isn't Mages Are Too OP a pure mage one?
     
  12. PotatoZero

    PotatoZero Well-known Potato

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    1,786
    Likes Received:
    1,614
    Reading List:
    Link
    Of course, since that's something everyone remembers
     
  13. Vincent1873

    Vincent1873 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2016
    Messages:
    6,414
    Likes Received:
    2,171
    Reading List:
    Link
    Magic is usually one of the most versatile powers in whatever universe it's in and thus can do whatever you can figure out. If you're a master of magic then you probably know a thing or two about enhancing your body with it. If your body is magically enhanced enough then you go learn a thing or two about close combat to avoid being ganked. If would be like asking why magic users are always flying.
     
  14. 0000000

    0000000 I B SMILING!

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2016
    Messages:
    5,571
    Likes Received:
    5,494
    Reading List:
    Link
    In context in game, yes. But not to forget that he has lessons learnt in miao dao (the curved saber/ sword similar to a katana) and has been seen using the sword techniques as well, especially against the mage killers. Fyi I am sorry if you are reading translated work and not yet hit the raws.
     
  15. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    24,647
    Likes Received:
    98,364
    Reading List:
    Link
    Probably more of a trend thingy over anything else. Like... Same reason why isekai is so popular I guess? People like magic fighters, so it became a popular trend.

    Standard mages still exist in fantasy though, they just aren't part of the mainstream webnovels I guess. There isn't much of a reason to why there aren't many writers making standard mages as opposed to magic fighters, it's just popularity, really.
     
  16. asriu

    asriu fu~ fu~ fu~

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2016
    Messages:
    18,546
    Likes Received:
    18,145
    Reading List:
    Link
    on battlefield pure mage only useful at team not as solo~ most action story about cool stuff, near to one man army~ sure pure mage can go that path cuz mage tend to have huge AoE plus high damage but writing it on battlefield concept require more tactical approach~ more so if we talking about teamplay~ on common novel the pattern on battlefield rarely on big fight scale, more about small scale with fast pace tendency that not really suitable for pure mage cuz well ten sword swing is faster than one chant~ pure mage imo on stage as artillery, siege weapon while close combatant as infantry~ you know like gundam stuff too bad the orc can ignore such stuff~

    hmmm the approach is melee battle is more exciting to write compared to range one~ this cat still think harry potter type of battle is funny one~
     
    AliceShiki likes this.
  17. powwder

    powwder Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2017
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    106
    Reading List:
    Link
    It's simple really, mages are powerful with magic but are physically weak compared to warriors or knights or fighters or basically anyone who doesn't use magic. A warrior or an assassin isn't going to just stand there and get nuked or just stand there waiting for the mage to cast spells, they will rush in or do something so that they can get in melee range where they are at their best.

    Think of any MMO or a MOBA game like League of Legends that has specific classes like mages. the mage always tries to keep distance and nuke things and any fighter will try to get into melee range. the mage will either kill the enemy or get caught and killed. now that's a game, imagine if your actual life depended on it. makes sense to at least learn some melee abilities.

    Novel wise for the mage to stay a true mage he would need to be powerful enough to kill everything without them touching him which is OP as hell. he would need the strength to put down body enhancers and the most powerful fighters in the world plus the ability to never get touched by them because they would instantly crush him the second they touch him. making that and staying interesting is hard.....or you can say he learns some melee abilities.
     
  18. kkgoh

    kkgoh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2017
    Messages:
    908
    Likes Received:
    1,444
    Reading List:
    Link
    Are you talking about webnovels only, or all novels?

    If the latter, then there are plenty of novels with pure-mage specs based on AD&D 3rd-5th edition rules, including the entire Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms series. Unlike Elminster (fighter/rogue/mage classes), Raistlin Majere went pure mage classes, hence the whole sibling rivalry with his brother fighter Caramon (basically a play on Thor v Loki) since Raistlin was physically weaker since young. Eventually once Raistlin leveled up past a certain point, he could easily overcome his close combat/physical weaknesses.

    That's true for most AD&D pure mage builds. You suffer from initial low-level weakness, then eventually crush pure physical builds beyond a certain point. Unless you're monk class like Grandmaster Kane, which is just broken :rolleyes:
     
  19. sjmcc13

    sjmcc13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,938
    Likes Received:
    4,777
    Reading List:
    Link
    Ya, it is the same issue (but in reverse) as the Linear vs Quadratic problems of TRPGs (Old D&D especially), in order to "balance" the story to the party the DM can sometimes be "forced" to take actions that effectively cripple one or more characters. Because certain classes could potentially become tool boxes that could solve almost anything if played right. It would almost always be either they let them have at it (and the it becomes boring to the rest) or they take actions to cripple that character so he does not contribute and becomes bored.

    Most worlds either being a pure mage is not enough, or it is to strong and the world becomes boring as a wizard becomes the answer to everything so the only viable antagonist is another pure mage. Balancing it so a pure mage can compete beyond "who goes first" with someone who has enhanced speed is very hard.

    Most of the books for those series, well at least the classic setting establishing ones are based on pre-3.X rules sets (Raistlin would be 1st edition AD&D IIRC). Unless the author ignored the game rules to tell a story in that world (which some did, like R.A. Salvatore and I am certain others as well from what I remember back when I use to read D&D novels) But even then back in those days the magic items were easily way over powered game breakers as well.

    Doing a story right there is hard, because there is a sweet spot on the power range where the classes balance out, and it is not large enough. Once they get beyond that point unless the writer is careful and skilled is easily becomes a boring story.

    The problem is that these game rules are actually bad for teling a story.
     
  20. Fluffums

    Fluffums 【R-18 Researcher】【Seeker of Moe】

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Reading List:
    Link
    In a game, a mage can specialize and minmax because the players can use de-aggro and taunts to keep mages from being targeted easily. Also, even if the mage dies she can be resurrected easily.

    In "real life", mages die when they are killed, so having enough melee combat techniques to defend themselves long enough to use magic seems only natural. It's not always possible to have magical protection up, after all.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.