Discussion The Abandoned Empress

Discussion in 'Novel Discussion' started by flamingorangesoof, Mar 26, 2020.

  1. iwan44

    iwan44 Member

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    Very mediocre story but solid art.
     
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  2. Xylade

    Xylade Well-Known Member

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    Its been a while since I've last read this mess.
    My main problem with this story's development is, that it seems like the author doesn't understand PTSD. To be fair, a lot of people don't, but the author doesn't realize that a person can get far worse, permanent conditions for far less. The assumption that you can just get over it with enough time is pretty much bs, people struggle permanently with it, unless they get some kind of help. And direct confrontation with the object of your trauma isn't exactly always the best way to do things. Yes, he's not the same person as before but using that as the sole argument kind of invalidates her experience. She has every possible reason to not trust him at all and yet she suddenly falls for him? Wouldn't it be more natural for her to assume that he hasn't really changed? I can imagine that he might be able to regain her trust if he puts enough effort in, but romance? Like somebody else already put it, it seems more like a victim of abuse that is unable to fully get away from the person that abused her. From a pure "logical" standpoint I see where you come from, but mental problems don't necessarily follow logic. Just telling someone that they are awesome won't magically heal their depression, most of the time therapy and medication is needed. A person next to them can help, but it's not always enough and I think the way he acts is definitely not enough to really help her.
     
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  3. Emile

    Emile Well-Known Member

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    Good points! Trauma isn't something Tia or any other character can just 'get over'. It's not a mountain Tia must climb in order to get over and get better. Trauma is carried with us, for the rest of our lives. Tia has scars from her trauma, the ones we can see and the ones she carries in her heart and mind. She isn't 'okay'...and that's okay.

    You can't just get over trauma, it's not like a physical wound that can be healed and forgotten about. The healing process is about being able to move forwards regardless of the trauma, not letting it hold you back, but it doesn't erase its presence. And some days, that trauma is more present compared to other days.

    Say Tia and Ruve get together, (which I know they do despite how improbable I see that as) and the two of them are living together. Then they get into a small fight, nothing big or anything, just a small dispute and Ruve makes an angered expression. That in itself could act as a trigger for Tia's PTSD. If this Ruve does something or anything that slightly resembles the old Ruve, (intentionally or unintentionally) it could hurt Tia's mental health. The whole relationship is going to be this new Ruve walking on eggshells so he doesn't trigger Tia's trama, and tell me, does that's sound like a good relationship to be in? It doesn't. It's not fair to either Tia or Ruve.

    Tia is in a relationship with someone that could worsen her mental health by accident, and Ruve is in a relationship with someone he can't even show his displeasure to, lest he reminds her of his past-timeline's self.

    I remember somewhere on the spoilers page that Tia openly tells Ruve how much she hates his other timeline counterpart, this after they get into a relationship and Ruve jokes about how his only competition was his past self, in which Tia responds that it wasn't even a competition and that the other Ruve was scum.

    I know that was supposed to show that Tia accepts this version of Ruve and sees this Ruve and the past timeline's Ruve as different people, but that doesn't mean that acknowledgement can stop this Ruve from accidentally triggering her PTSD.

    Even as someone that doesn't know much about PTSD, even I feel that whole relationship screams 'this is bad for Tia's mental health.'

    Quite simply, I don't believe a romantic relationship could truly work between the both of them. I don't hate Ruve, and neither does Tia, but he could still cause her problems.
     
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  4. tomaO2

    tomaO2 Active Member

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    I've read a number of stories like the Abandoned Empress. Out of all of them, this is the story whose beginning loved the most, and the ending that I hated the most.

    I loved the beginning because of how Tia's trauma was portrayed. Her initial actions of getting up from her bed to run to her father spoke to me on a fundamental level, as I have gone through that exact thing as a child, and I still suffer as an adult. Only in the last few years have I found out that sleeping with a weighted blanket calms me reliably enough that I don't have to worry about going into a panic attack when I try and sleep.

    It's not something that goes away. I haven't suffered anything in my life that is even a fraction as bad as Tia went through but my traumas/fears do NOT go away, so I related to Tia on a level that I cannot recall relating to any other fictional character. The way Tia dealt with her trauma just perfectly represented how I also have dealt with them.

    So, imagine the horror that I felt when Tia's trauma just went away, and she married the man that was the source of all that trauma. It was the last thing I wanted out of this story, so I hate this ending. It's not just an ending I don't like, I feel personally betrayed by it. The Tia that did that is not the character I identified with so strongly at the start.

    I've read a lot of the villainess dying stories, and then going back in time to try and live a better life, and even marrying the guy that hated her in the previous timeline, but this story did it badly. One of the key differences is that Tia did not regret her past self. Sure, she could have done this or that differently, but she fundamentally does not feel she deserved what happened to her (rightfully so). Almost all these sorts of stories has the MC acknowledge that she is to blame for what happened, at least to some degree. She was not bullying anyone. She was not trying to force anyone to love her. She was just doing her best as the Empress, and she got screwed over for that.

    Another issue is that the love interest usually changes pretty quickly. I think it's dumb to fall in love with a girl just because she's not interested in you anymore (unless that interest came off as being really obnoxious, which is also fairly common but wasn't the case here), but it's fairly common, especially with these ice cold princes that manha's love so much. However, this guy remains unlikeable for a good third of the book. Which is just absolutely absurd. It also builds up two perfectly good alternatives, which then have to be torn down, which the green hair had happen just horribly. It could not be more clear that, now that Ruve needs to become the ML, that Green Hair had to turn into a terrible person. Otherwise, how could Ruve even compete?

    On top of that, Tia was told by GOD that her feelings for Ruve were implanted into her. She couldn't help but love him. How can you even trust your feelings when you can't even tell what is real or not?

    I found it a little funny how Jieun got a ton of hate from people that defended Ruve. They just wanted to latch onto anyone else as being the actual villain, even though Jieun was also a victim. Meanwhile, the guy that orchestrated everything was extremely one note, barely in the story, and got dispatched fairly quickly. Wasn't really much of an interesting villain, especially given how well he did in the first timeline. This meant that there wasn't really anyone to direct your anger on, so you end up focusing on Ruve, or Jieun (or even blaming the victim, Tia), even though the author was trying to make sure you found both these characters as sympathetic. The story needed a better villain.

    It's like this author had no idea as to how and make a compelling rebound. If you wanted to have Ruve and Tia get together, don't give her the excessive trauma, DO make her feel regret about what she did, don't make the ML into an unlikeable jackass for 1/3rd (or more) of the story, and DO try to give some good points as to why she is in love with him that can be clearly defined from love magic. Some foreshadowing of things also helps. Like, I hear that Ruve really didn't want to execute her, but you wouldn't know it from the beginning.

    It's not hard to follow simple story beats like that.

    I also hate the entire poison plot. Apperently, it was literally to blame for every bad action Tia and Ruve ever did, right down to Tia attacking Ruve for killing her father. Do we need crazy poison to make her do that? How convenient that she was just crazy enough to attack, but not crazy enough to try and finish the job. It was also way too easy to find that poison in the second timeline. They were drinking poison tea constantly in the first timeline, and never figured it out, but the second timeline, just drink the tea once, and all this stuff comes out. Even worse is that none of this is foreshadowed, even remotely. There are no scenes of drinking the tea in the original timeline before acting crazy.

    Why are there no taste testers? This entire thing about not being allowed to let anyone know what sorts of foods you like is one of the absolute most absurd ideas I've ever heard. It doesn't even have a good use. All it does is create a reason for Ruve to freak out and put Tia in a coma. Not a single useful thing ever came from pretending they don't have tastebuds. You know what would have helped? Someone sampling all the food you eat before you eat it.

    What the heck was with the father anyway. He says he's going to save Tia, and then does nothing. I'm told he wasn't killed by Ruve, so why did he not save her? Why did Ruve even tell her that he killed Tia's father? What HAPPENED?
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
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  5. Uhteen

    Uhteen Member

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    TW:Suicide
    So basically, the Monique family has-along with the blood oath-one get-out-of-jail-free card that the head of the house can use. Keiran was going to use it to allow tia to leave Ruve.

    Things go wrong when Tia stabs Ruve.

    Since attempting to kill the emperor is a severe crime, all of the nobles want to execute her. Keiran can no longer use the wish he has to free Tia since her life would be miserable, since her strong sense of honor.

    Kerian ends up committing suicide shortly after Aristia's execution.
     
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  6. tomaO2

    tomaO2 Active Member

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    I got that part. What I don't get is why Ruve told Tia that he killed her dad to begin with. Was it because Kerain told Ruve he wanted Tia released? Was Ruve delaying things somehow? What was this whole Kerian being arrested for masterminding the attack on Jieun?

    There was plenty of time to rescue Tia, but nothing happened, why wasn't Kerian able to rescue her before Ruve told her he killed Kerain? How did Ruve know that the father was trying to rescue Tia to begin with?
     
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  7. Uhteen

    Uhteen Member

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    Ruve lied to Tia that her father was dead because he basically wanted to see her cry and didn't anticipate her snapping.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  8. tomaO2

    tomaO2 Active Member

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    Hmm, let me try again. Does anyone know the exact line of events of what happened with Tia's Father?

    I know he wasn't killed or in jail when Tia was executed, but I'm wondering what actually happened during this time period.

    He said he was going to rescue Tia, but needed to do something first, what was that thing? Then Jieun's baby died and Tia heard that Kerain was blamed. Was he actually blamed, and arrested, or was that a false rumor? If he was arrested, what evidence was there that he was the mastermind? Why was he released?

    I really don't get the sequence of events that lead to Tia thinking he was killed while he was actually a part of the audience, and never even was able to talk to Tia one last time before he died. This entire thing that had him survive completely came out of left field, and it just doesn't make any sense.
     
  9. Mis Occ

    Mis Occ Well-Known Member

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    Main issue: ML is abusive to fml in first life. Fml goes back with former knowledge and ends up with the ml *who has changed.*
    Why did the ml change? They only thing that changed from the original timeline was the fml. Thus the fml's change *changes* the ml, and now he's no longer an abusive pos.
    What's the implication? If she had acted this way the first time, he wouldn't have become an abuser. Ergo it's her actions and attitude that led to her abuse. Ergo it's her fault she was abused.
    Moral? Change yourself and you won't be abused anymore, since it's your attitude that encourages the abuse.
    That's a big issue, guys. Please don't support an author that spread this kind of bullshit. It is not the victim's fault they are abused, so whether or not they change will not impact the treatment they receive from their abuser.
    I loved this story at first and was so, so disappointed by the toxic and morally repugnant message the author is trying to spread.
    Please save yourself the heartache and don't bother.
     
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  10. Mellogang

    Mellogang Well-Known Member

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    My tearstears, cheers, and time for Tia got wasted because in the end she ended up marrying the guy who ruined who her life. The trauma become a joke. Trauma is not something that is easy to overcome it take a lot of time to get heal even youre mentally strong.
     
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  11. killerninja123

    killerninja123 New Member

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    I feel bad for the artist, Ina. Her art is very pretty and her art was wasted on this story. I heard she got a lot of hate because she drew the webtoon. She wasn't even the author, just someone who's job was to draw. I do hope she gets another opportunity to draw another webtoon with a good story.
     
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  12. Nuzlocke

    Nuzlocke Well-Known Member

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    I mean, to be fair, the author kinda created a semi-horror fic.

    He's not the same person. This is a fact. She's also not in a position to refuse the engagement. She HAS to get over it because it literally never happened, she has no one to talk to about it and not getting over it will only result in problems for her and her alone. Personally she's justified in not trusting him. Realistically tho, she's in the wrong. That's just one of the many problems with time-travel ;)

    It invalidates the victim's suffering. That's the trade off. You get to redo your life, congrats. You're suffering doesn't matter. Be grateful, because you get a second chance out of literally trillions and the only price you have to pay is your past.

    Doesn't matter, it never happened. That was the price for Time-travel.

    Main Issue: I'd say it's actually time travel. It invalidated her suffering.
    Implication: More like her lack of action, but yes.
    Moral: Don't use time-travel. It makes it impossible to let someone deal with their PTSD in a healthy way because the cause never happened ;)

    No she didn't, TL1 Ruve is dead.

    My issue is the fact that no one understands the flaws of using time-travel in a setting like this lol
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2022
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  13. luco

    luco Member

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    Do you recommend people to read this novel? I've seen harsh reviews everywhere lol
     
  14. Dimension Breaker

    Dimension Breaker Well-Known Member

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    If trash stories where the FL becomes naive & spineless and goes back to her former abuser just because she changed and becomes palatable in character for the ML, is your guilty pleasure then go read it!
     
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  15. Nuzlocke

    Nuzlocke Well-Known Member

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    I do, it had the potential to offer a beautiful deconstruction of the time travel trope. Read it if only for that, not like you're paying for it ;)
    But her former abuser died back in timeline 1.
    The guy in timeline 2 just shares his face ;)
    Not gonna lie tho, wish they played around with deconstructing time-travel a little more.
     
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  16. Lera

    Lera Active Member

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    honestly, i feel like people are too harsh with the ML. FL's second life starts when they were still young which means the ML has not done anything wrong to her or anyone else. he's like a blank slate and with the FL's change, he too changed for the better. he doesn't remember what he did to the FL during his first life so i don't understand why people are pissed at him for expressing his love for FL? why should he feel sorry for the things he has never done in his life? the first and second ML are, in my opinion, two separate characters. one went down the wrong path while one was guided by the FL which lead to him going down the right path.

    the hate FL felt for him at the beginning was very justifiable and fair, given how the first life ML treated her was very trashy. and we see throughout the story that she finally comes to accept the fact that the ML in her second life is different than the first life. what's the use of her constantly hating on someone who did nothing wrong in the first place? her first life was a hard lesson for her to learn from. because of it, she could realize when and what she did wrong and fix it in her second life. she also learned to forgive the past him and come to terms with her own feelings.

    one thing i want to say is the manhwa felt extremely rushed. i wish they could've added more scenes for ML and FL, to see them grow, especially FL whose feelings seemed to be robbed from justice. her initial feelings weren't thoroughly laid out for the readers to follow. the beginning was slow and steady with her constantly avoiding ML but after several chapters, the author decided to just immediately skip a few chapters and push her to the ML.

    ... you know that despite having the same title 'emperor', both have different authorities. emperors in china are literally treated like gods. what they say goes, he wants you dead? your life is done that very second. whereas here, emperors are just a title. they have people constantly keeping watch of their movements and have to always mind their movements. one wrong move, you could be annihilated by so many people.

    that's why the whole story is about her healing her heart and coming to terms with it. she's learning to put those memories to rest and move on with her life. she's done so many mistakes in her past life and she learned from those mistakes.
     
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  17. Nuzlocke

    Nuzlocke Well-Known Member

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    They are, and people forget that the ML in our story and the Ruve from the first chapter are literally different people. You wouldn't blame someone for the crimes an alternate universe counterpart did would you? If you answered yes, then Tia is a criminal because in one timeline, she raped Ruve.

    Moving on.

    It's not that he doesn't remember what he did, rather, he never actually did it. It's not an opinion when you say that the ML's from Timeline 1 & 2 are different people, because they literally are different people with the same face.

    Feel it's more a case of people not liking the fact that Tia's suffering doesn't matter (because time-travel literally invalidated it) and she now has to move on. She's also given the illusion of choice. She was never not going to end up with Ruve.

    Also opinion time: the only real option from the fake out main leads is the red one. I'm sorry, but the green one is a literal psychopath and people need to stop simping for crazies. It's not healthy.

    Opinion time over.

    Justifiable for her, yes.

    In universe tho? She's in the wrong.

    I would have loved it if the author actually highlighted this point more. Time-Travel has a price, and the price Tia paid was literally her having to move on from what happened in TL 1, because only she experienced it... At least until the other one showed up.

    Yes and I will die on this hill, but this story had the potential to deconstruct the time-travel trope these stories love to use.

    I'd argue that's still the case here. Even in china, the emperor couldn't go THAT far, least he earn the wrath of the groups that actually mattered and get dethroned. Mandate of heaven and all that. No one's going to bat an eye if Ruve or Tia run over a few commoners on their way to a party or something, but in timeline 1 Ruve went too far, being dimmer than his TL 2 counterpart, and all that and actually making an enemy of his supporters, etc.

    Tia is a time-traveler. Ruve is not. TL 2 Ruve's done nothing wrong. As a time-traveler, Tia has to get over it because it literally never happened.

    Allendis is by far the worst choice. People seem to forget that he still helped set the stage, he just backed off at the end. "Don't stick your dick in crazy" fully applies here lol

    lol, the only one with plot armor is Tia. She literally time-traveled bro
     
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  18. Kumo723

    Kumo723 玄夜的帝后

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    If he could do it first time that means it's in his ability and possiblity to do it second time. Maybe SiFeng is raising my ML standards too high, but an undying love spanning 10 lifetimes SHOULD be the standard. Why should we settle for a ML who is a looming danger with a history of abuse? Why settle for second best? It's fiction anyways. I can live out my fantasy, why settle for a realistic ML if I can have a devoted one else where?

    He backed off and admit his wrong, I don't see Ruve doing it. Also they BOTH have plot armor. Plot armor makes her fell in love with him or maybe it's not. That's how girls in real life acts. They want that bad boy who'll change for them.
     
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  19. Nuzlocke

    Nuzlocke Well-Known Member

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    No it doesn't, because his attitude in TL1 can be explained via upbringing. An "undying love" spanning 10 lifetimes is called an obsession. That's even worse than being abusive, because what happens if the girl isn't interested?

    But I digress.

    Fact of the matter is, we aren't settling for a "ML who is a looming danger with a history of abuse." He never abused her.

    Erase Timeline 1 and you get a brat becomes a man worthy of the crown on his head. Timeline 1 only matters to Tia, but she and Jieun are the only one's who experienced it. It never happened. There's no one they could talk to about it, so they have to get over it. If you really think about it, the god of Abandoned Empress is kinda a jerk for giving them that monkey's paw, but I digress (again).

    You "settle for second best" because that's how the author wrote the setting. You want a better main lead? A more devoted ML whose obsessed with you and everything you stand for? Don't use time-travel.

    He backed off but didn't actually try to fix anything.

    Ruve, on the other hand, never did anything wrong. This is why you never see him "admitting he was wrong". The one who ACTUALLY did something wrong was TL1 Ruve, a different person, and he was gutted like a fish and died alone in some unmarked grave.

    The only character with plot armor is Tia. She's literally a time-traveler. Girl's in real life don't time-travel bro and most are also not stuck in a political marriage with a doppelganger of their past abuser.
     
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  20. Kumo723

    Kumo723 玄夜的帝后

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    Everything u said is rlly rich. Also that's not obsession it's devotion. Something u easy to get girls won't understand. Not to mention he's not asking the FL to love him back. And Ruve did nothing wrong? That 1st Ruve is sti Ruve. It's the very same in carbon Ruve. They're the same person. If that's the poor excuse of a redemption arc the author's gonna do. That's fine. I already dropped this. They're NOT different people. Oml biological and scientifically they are the same person. Clearly ur not another easy brainwashed girl who have very clear bias towards Ruve. In ur eyes, Ruve is a saint. He's a textbook flawless perfect ML. It's okay girl, everyone have their preference. It's ur life not mine. So while u continue liking this unhealthy man, I'm gonna read more about gentle and caring MLs. I don't like self entitled alpha males.

    Ps. Ruve is no different from the Chinese netizens who criticize RM for supporting team Korea. Unreasonable and childish
     
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