Discussion How long would it take you to build a steam engine in Ancient Greece?

I’m reading a novel and I’m shaking my head on why a modern era man is so slow to introduce technology. I mean it’s been over 10+ years since he’s been there, but he hasn’t done anything. It just floors me.
https://jpmtl.com/books/1153
I just can’t understand why he didn’t do it. He introduced football, but not gallon ships? He introduce regulation on trade, but never tried to build a gun.
I mean seriously how long would it take for you to build a steam engine? Now remember this MC started off as a soldier, but than became Emperor. He’s been an Emperor for over 10 years. Now with that power you telling me he couldn’t build a steam engine in that time. That’s just unbelievable. Am I wrong?

 

I for one do not know how to build a steam engine so know matter how long I was there I couldn't build one.

 

Maybe it's because he can't. Travelling back in time and thinking about the tech you know is possible is different from being able to introduce them.

I don't know how to build a gun, nor do I think it feasible that i could make a steam engine. I just don't have the technological know-how to do it. So maybe he is like me and only knows about things besides that

 

I really think its just a matter of knowledge, the author can do whatever they want but i assume most people don't know what pistons are.

 

He might know how to asemble/disassemble a gun as a soldier but he might not know the fine details of each part. I can disassemble an engine but I don't how to build one from nothing.
The percentage of people that know how to make gunpowder for bullets is rather low, the percentage of people who know how to get those materials narrows things down further.

 

Even I dont know how the steam engine works.
I know it has something to do with burning wood or charcoal but the tiny bits thats needed to move gears, the gears itself and placement of how they came to be. Ive got no idea about it.

The things youve given are almost basic knowledge as long as you went to business school or even accountancy but mechanical things are very specific skill set that needs years on duty to learn.

 

Not everyone is an engineer or knows old technology and how it works. Other things to worry about are to have the correct resources or equivalents; infrastructure; manpower and training of the personnel; time; etc.

 

I assume the OP didn't mean to build one personally. As a Emperor, the guy can gather skilled craftsmen. Give them the concept and tell them to think about. Provide some funds for prototyping and tests, and it shouldn't take too long to develop something workable. Yeah, it won't be great, but people need to time to use things before they can identify what needs to be tweaked to increase performance and safety, and reduce cost to make.

 

But unless he is an engineer from the beginning, I think it is difficult for an ordinary person to provide even the concept. Like all I know from the top of my head about steam engines is that they use steam to power, and they use pistons (but I have no idea about the structure of a piston so I can't really provide this as part of the concept) I think it's more likely these craftsmen will dismiss my idea as a crazy one

 

There are a couple major technology limitations when it comes to constructing a steam engine.
1. Metal working. You need a metal that can withstand a lot of heat and pressure. Pig iron works I suppose if you make it really thick, but then you've got something large and ridiculously heavy. Useless if you're trying to construct a plane. A problem when trying to make a train. And possibly useful as a stationary furniture like a windmill and the like but the heavy parts are going to kill your efficiency as higher temperatures and pressures are needed just to make them move. Extremely High temperatures & pressures = time bomb.

2. Sealing. Quite frankly, if your container leaks, you're not going to get a lot of useable work from steam...if any. Steam engines start exhibiting advantageous performance over manpower/horsepower after you raise pressures inside the chamber far above one atmosphere. If you've tried to seal a leaking roof before...it's kinda like that but much much worse since steam defies gravity and is basically gas so it escapes the tiniest pinholes. Sure you can build pressure even when gas is escaping, but the efficiency goes down the more gas that's escaping since part of the fuel you're using is being spent on making up what you're losing.

BTW, pipes are sheets of metal rolled and...soldered shut. Do you have soldering technology because I doubt you have extrusion technology. Then again, you can use metal casting for the pipes but that takes a long freaking time to make the molds and then you have to figure out how to make them fit together.

3. Design. Steam engines stopped being a toy when someone realized that the cooling cycle can be housed outside of the heating block. Because there was no internet, it took over a hundred years just to come up with this idea. Anyway, before this enhancement, you needed to wait for the heated chamber to cool before you reheated it. Cooling it in a separate chamber meant that the heating chamber can remain hot, saving on fuel and time since you can skip the reheating step. I'm not going to go into why you need a cooling cycle, but if you want to extract work out of the steam engine with pistons and turbines, you need the cooling step to reset everything so you can dump more heat in.

4. Fuel. Wood fire isn't hot enough and the logs take up a ton of room in the furnace. You need charcoal or coal technology, both of which burn hotter and longer than wood fire. I get that charcoal has been around since the cavemen times, but you're going to need a lot of it. Not just to fuel the engine, but to build it as well.

I'd also mention that you need temperature sensing and pressure release valve technology to prevent overpressure/overtemperature conditions which can trigger a catastrophic explosion, but since you're going with a story format, we can assume you're done after you create the steam chamber and supportive piping.

 

Building steam engine would require the metallurgy and the precision tooling technology. 10 years seems about right if the emperor himself are knowledgeable about engineering and metalworking since he'd need to set new teams of workers from absolutely zero (no common physics, math, and engineering yet).

 

Not that hard in ancient Greece specifically. Just find the guy who invented it there. (I'll see if I can find a source on this little factoid, since I remember seeing somewhere that the first steam engine was made in ancient Greece.)

 

If i was Emperor, during the roman days, and my power/rule was unquestionable. I could have one built in a week, and a satisfactory one reiterated over month. The steam engine while a awesome invention it isn't really hard to recreate if you know whats going on.

Edited for this, though i wouldn't be making a high pressure steam engine but as Emperor i guess i wouldn't have to takes the risks if it blow up either.

 

my limitation would be my lack of knowledge and proper drawing skills to depict my idea
then again, in stories, the main character only needs to suggest ideas and their men will get things to work out in the end. see: tensei slime and tsuki ga michibiku

 

I should also mention that before you get a steam engine, you may need an industrial revolution. Otherwise, the people are going to be wondering how a rotating bobbing thingamajig is going to be useful. After all, these are people whose entire world is centered around farming. The most complicated tool is going to be a plow hooked to a farm animal probably.

The wonders weren't created with anything compact and self-contained, just some advanced knowledge of physical concepts.

Just like Colombus had to deal with a mutiny because his first trip to the New World took far longer than he expected, spending 10 years on some kinda big toy that belches fire is going to create a revolt if the people think that you're wasting their time, money, and effort. And even if it's not bankrupting the country, if you can't convince the people working on the project, chances are good that they'll stay for a year before real life hits and they return to farming. Then you'll need to train a new team to take over. That training introduces delays.

Ehh...when in doubt, convince them that it's a special kind of war machine I guess.

 

You continue to ignore the bit about "being the Emperor". You don't need to know exactly how it's supposed to be built or how it'll work. You're the Emperor. Just say you saw it in a dream and you want this. You offer to give bonuses to whoever can make this crazy idea into reality. People will make it happen.

 

But just because you’re an emperor doesn’t mean You can just will someone else into existence to do something for you or that everyone will understand your vision. A lot of novels have MC’s stumble upon geniuses by luck (in theory), it’s easy to talk about pre-existing technology when we’ve seen and used it but not creating it or having people understand what you’re looking for in the first place. Even if you did; how would it go over well with people in the past who’ve never had a chance to see this sort of thing? It’s like going back to 1300’s and talking about germs and microscopes without having evidence to show; they wouldn’t believe you or if it goes too far they could revolt because there are more important matters at hand (like their quality of life)

 

I mean a coffee/ tea pot is in essence a steam engine. As to pistons. It’s not that complicated. Just like walking. The mechanics are as simple as that.
Besides as discussed before. If an Emperor said build this. I doubt anyone will say no.
I would guess there will be clever person in this era because let’s not forget. People are not dumb. They just lack knowledge. There were many brilliant people that are still remark even today.
As to regulating the steam engine. A clever device was designed. It was centrifugal governor. It a great trick. Yet a simple device. Quite ingenious.
Now going back. Are you telling me. That you could not build a simple steam engine in 10 years with the backing of an entire empire.
Steam engines have been around even than. Valves have been around since than.
I guess I just don’t get it. I guess I’m the unusual one here

 

I can understand why you think that, but if you aren't familiar with the technology, how would you even go about explaining it to some smart dudes?
Explaining something from what it does and uses as energy is insanely difficult. And then there's the issue of how to apply the stuff.

 

Dude, they already had steam engine during the Roman era. I’ll say it again people are not dumb. No matter the era. Their brains are essentially the same as ours. Clever people exist since the beginning.
What I am saying an Emperor could do is pull a Steve Jobs. Basically he walk into a room of smart people and said “I want all my music library to fit in this small device”. Than left and let them figure it out. He did the same thing with a bunch of other ideas. He didn’t build a thing. He didn’t even know how to do it. He just said I want this.
So yes this is something a person could do. Let alone a Emperor