Discussion How long would it take you to build a steam engine in Ancient Greece?

I get why you think that, and I am assuming that you are referring to the aeolipile, right? That was not a steam engine similar to the ones developed during the industrial revolution. It isn’t even a true predecessor in any way.


And i do not think it is similar. What you are proposing is something akin to Qin Shi Huang's demands for ways to gain immortality. Those people may be smart, but they don't have the capacity to understand what you want without a point of reference. It isn't that long ago that people would have thought flying and the internet as impossible.

 

I assume you're referring to this? That's a little inaccurate, anyway. It was never used for practical purposes and was not really regarded as something useful. At the time, physics was simply not developed enough to let them understand how to make one that could do anything other than make a neat party trick.

Yes, people are smart, but you'd be surprised how dumb ideas in society just became taken for granted back then. With the basic idea and a set of some more advanced concepts in physics, I'm sure you'd be able to get some smart people to wrangle an actual one together, provided they trusted you and were adaptable enough. It'd take a while for people to accept and use the ideas, though.

Edit: After reading up on steam engines, I realize that the materials for them to be made as well as for them to function would be pretty hard to acquire in Ancient Greece. You'd probably be forced to make a more inferior version, and it would be very hard to mass-produce them, since I'm sure that precise casting with iron would be challenging with just Ancient Greek technology at your disposal.

Woops, I'm late.

 

Lol! That's such a cute steam engine.

 

Here's a relatively simple steam design which might be useful to a transmigrator. Just a bunch of disks. The hardest part would be the ball bearings.

Spoiler: Tesla Turbine videos

As for gunpowder, I have no idea how I'd purify the saltpeter needed for black powder, and I have no idea how to do smokeless powder, so anything I did in the regards would likely be very lackluster in results.

Edit: This is also interesting.

Spoiler: Wooden air engine build

 

Tesla turbines are neat, but creating the discs in the center can't be easy with Ancient Greek technology. They have to be flat and thin, and they have to withstand incredible rotation rates for max efficiency.

And the key question remains, what do you use it for? I mean, it'd be great for Power Generation, but where are you going to find electrical appliances in Ancient Greece?

 

If it's just small technology demonstrator trinket then yes you don't need 10 years. Working steam engine for propulsion of something heavy like trains or metal ship need 10 years or more if we're speaking of Roman era still mainly in bronze age. If you get lucky and somehow have genius crews assembled you can perhaps get it to be under 10 years. It's not just the matter of building steam engines for the sake of building one. It's whether you can implement the technology. So you'd need to establish
1. Basic mathematical, physics, and engineering standard including uniform measurements and it's scales.
2. Discovery and mining of coals, crude and iron ore along with it's cultures (try look the data of how much transition from iron age to steel age industry uses these resources).

Frankly within 10 years is an optimistic measures. It could easily take 20 or more years if you don't have the resources or the stability for such technological leap.

 

If the mythical Greek master craftsman Daidalos was real and in ancient Greece, he might be able to create a steam engine!

 

That is true but the idea is simply alien to these zoroastrian era. It's not about just letting people know it's possible it's about how to make them accept it and then have them learn to have the same idea about physics.

 

1. It was proven that Romans were able to use thinner metal.
2. You said it yourself “Casting”.
3. Being Emperor is motivation enough.
4. I’d hope the MC would remember coal, but maybe someone else will figure it out in 10 years.

Nope. While precision is wonderful. It is in fact not needed. Romen was able to do it. Metallurgy is also along those lines. It shouldn’t take 10 years.

Two words “Steve Jobs”. Could built or even figure out how to do anything he thought up. But still was able to build them.

The aeolipile is a proven technology. Half of the trouble of any invention is proof of concept. Once you see something can be done. It comes down to adapting that concept to real world need. The Industrial Revolution did not creat the steam engine. I would wager the steam engine created the Industrial Revolution.
As to people building something they never had a clue about until told to build it. I’ll leave the name “Steve Jobs”.

With many inventions. It was built on giants. Did the inventor of a car. Know everything to do with building a car. He knew how to build glass. That was placed in the car. Did he know how to turn iron into steel. Or any number of things. I doubt it.
You do not need to know the physics of things to build things. Even now. We don’t know everything there is to know about physics, but we still building things.
We know of a concept that works. So we take the next step to make it better. Do we know the physics behind it? Maybe. For instance we use electricity by flipping a switch. Does that mean we know how a nuclear reactor works because it is what powers the light. Probably not.
As to people trusting me. It’s not necessary. I’m the Emperor.

Justify? Let’s leave alone the fact like most inventions in the beginning are never efficient. The mere fact I’m Emperor should be enough. Besides at this moment in time labor is cheap and I’m not even going into slave labor part.

 

I'm sure they could cast some bronze disks that would work well enough. As for maximum efficiency, it's not really necessary. Also, I imagine it could be used for lots of things like powering ships, or maybe even war wagons.

 

You can use cast iron for simple boiler steam engines but you'd need forged steel for pressurized steam engines for propulsion.
With cast iron you can only hope to make it work if you make it heavy and thick boiler. The question is what will these heavy cast iron boiler steam engine going to power ? Trains ? It has poor power to weight ratio for that.
Engineering is not simply making the principle works. It's about how to implement them best. In engines you can easily find tens to twenty kinds of metal alloys each forged with specific functions in mind.
If the emperor know the recipe for these alloys then lucky for him he doesn't have to spend 5 to 10 years in material development. He only have to work out how to mine and process the raw materials to purity of modern standards his recipe would work with. That means producing chrome, silicone, etc for his steam engines.

 

Also precision isn't that hard to recreate to a high enough level if you just remember how to make a flat piece of metal and maybe assign a company to work on making some decently standard measurement tools. Just rub 3 different flat tables of metal together until their all smooth so they don't go all concave on you, then you can make a proper lathe and go from there.

 

While a lathe is one of the few equipment that can work with almost any material and is one of the few equipment that can reproduce itself. The bad part is building the first one

 

that's what the metal sheets are for. I did watch a documentary on it though so it's probably not to fair to just say it's an easy thing I suppose.

 

For the steam engine, it's pretty imperative to know the physics it involves; otherwise, you're stuck with trial and error. I assure you, forging and reforging a precise apparatus like that takes lots of time when you don't know the laws involved. Possible within 10 years? Perhaps, if you sacrifice a good deal of your manpower you could be using for more practical purposes. I can't estimate that very well, as the amateur historian and physicist that I am.
Ancient Greece had large projects, but it was also a political mess. I'm sure that a monarch did not hold enough power to guarantee that (I don't think Ancient Greece had emperors), and it'd depend on which part of Ancient Greece you're the monarch of, too. Some did not have the power nor the economy.

As for building things without knowing physics, that's really kind of wrong? Buildings are designed by architects, who definitely have to have taken college-level physics. Same with engineers that design pretty much everything else physical. Heck, even most computer scientists learn physics. Unless you're talking about construction workers, but the architect must have taken physics.
BTW, the inventor of the car is usually regarded as this guy. He was also a metalworker and certainly knew how steel was made. He built the car mostly by himself, too, so he of course did not know everything, but he did know a great deal. He also had, you know, the support of an industrialized society. Kind of important.
Edit: Oops, didn't notice you said "everything there is to know about physics". Of course, science is an ever-growing field. Sorry 'bout that misunderstanding there. However, I think there is a certain level of proficiency needed to know how to make these things. Don't overestimate your intuition. It's like telling a guy who's only ever used his computer from the 1990s to help fix your Macbook.

The Aeolipile is indeed proven technology, but it is not what one would refer to as an industrial steam engine. Sure, you got the idea, but what matters is how useful it can be. The aeolipile is frankly not enough to be considered a steam engine that can actually move large loads, which is what I assume this thread is about.
An industrial steam engine has a similar idea, but anyone looking at one can tell that it's a lot more complex than an aeolipile. I'd say that it's kind of like making lemon batteries and calling them legit batteries; I suppose you can, but there's a lot more to be done and getting an electric current from a lemon does not mean you're getting very far. It's hardly enough to turn on a tiny lightbulb.
You've got to design something that's actually useful, and that's the hard part.

 

If you worried about weight. Than there is a simple solution. Shipping. Weight is not as big a deal on ships.
As to making steel. Personally, I’d build a Bessemer plant, but not all people know this technology. But still you could pull a canon cheat. The same thing happen to canons. One of their solutions was using brass and iron bands. Just a thought. So metallurgy and precision is not necessary.

 

I don't think you can say you need forged steel for all propulsion. How much power you need depends on the application. For example, my body doesn't produce that much power at all, but I'm able to propel myself well enough. Also, it's important to note how fast you are moving is a big factor in the equation. Things moving slowly require a lot less power because resistance is related to speed. As for actual useful applications maybe propelling a giant war tower slowly to the cities walls.

 

You need forged steel. Cast steel do not have the uniformity, toughness and stress tolerance for steam engines. Early boiler steam engines are prone to explode because it doesn't have the uniformity and stress tolerance.

 

@aShinyVaporeon did the fist person to build a canon. Know all the physics behind the making or the building of it. The answer is no. As to taking 10 years. I don’t know. If you were given a blank check. With the authority to use anything in the whole country. That includes any resources needed like manpower. To build something that has already been proven to work. I seriously doubt it would take you half a year to build something. As to it being useful. That might take a little longer. Not 10 years.

Canons had the same issues, but there we’re work around.

 

How much power you need depends on what you are doing. Imagine using a cast bronze steam engine to slowly propel a siege tower to the city's walls. It seems perfectly feasible to me.