Discussion How long would it take you to build a steam engine in Ancient Greece?

Even construction workers learns physics. There's this speak about people in profession that "a nurse would know half or more about a doctors works". This is true to nurse and as well to construction workers. Which is why in normal circumstances Las Vegas hyperloop tunnels wouldn't have built because all construction company would know that the tunnels are built in violation of the standard regulations about tunnels used for transportation.

If you want to add bulls to help pulling them then yes lol. Like i said. Power to weight ratio. Cast engines can't reach high temperature hence low power output. Combined that with it's own weight then you'd be lucky if it can even propel it's own weight.

 

I see, you don't mean just being the monarch but the unquestionable highest authority. However, a basic cannon is not comparable to a steam engine, because steam engines have to be a lot more precise. I highly doubt that you could make a steam engine with half a year in Ancient Greece with, for example, only high-school level physics and history knowledge, even if you have the nation's authority. Your advisors are more than 300 years older than Aristotle, who, by the way, thought that flies spontaneously spawned out of inanimate matter, as did eels and clams. And a lot of people at the time thought he was right.

 

It takes very little power to just get something to move. Remember Archimedes's “Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. ”

 

Let’s not make the mistake of underestimating people like Aristotle. After all even now Aristotle is so admire that we still quote him to this day. People’s minds haven’t change. People have the same level of intelligence. The only difference is a lack of knowledge.
As to comparing Canons to Boilers. Their not to far off the mark from each other. Both deal with high pressure. As to being precise. I agree it would be better for both. But it’s not necessary. Both have been proven to be able to be built with similar low level of technology. You don’t need “high-school level physics and history knowledge” to build a boiler. A tea kettle has the same requirements as a boiler. You don’t need physics or history to build one.

 

That one is a bullshit. Seriously start reading about steam engines history.

 

Yeah, but we're not talking about boilers nor cannons...that's too inaccurate of an analogy (not to mention that "they both deal with high pressure", yeah. But they have starkly different goals and are certainly easier to make than steam engines). Yes, people admire Aristotle, because he was advanced in many areas for his time. Goes to show how little they knew back then.
My point is that the era was not advanced. Lack of knowledge is key here, because it's this knowledge that allowed for the invention of steam engines in the first place, not just human ingenuity.
Thinkers are influenced by the knowledge base they have access to. What I mean is that their knowledge would be too little. You would have to condition them to modern ways of thinking and introduce to them to your modern knowledge. This isn't a quick and easy process. Keep in mind that the scientific method did not exist until at least the 1500s.

 

But we are talking about boilers. As to “inaccuracies of an analogy”. I beg to differ. There are more things in common. Than different.
As to belittling one of the most greatest minds of all time. I’m sorry I am not even close to being on Aristotle level to even kiss his feet. So I will not judge the founding father of modern thought. I’m not qualified.
As to modern way of thinking. You do remember what the post was about right?
I was complaining that a “modern man” is not using his modern technology to build steam engines.
So the modern thought is present and enforce because the MC is the Emperor.
What’s the problem?

 

While the idea of moving the world with a lever is very impractical for various reasons, mechanical advantage is definitely not bullshit. I think you are too focused on the history of the steam engine, and not enough on what is physically feasible given a certain fictional setting.

 

Just make it magical something not physics based in that case.
You cite that mechanical advantage theory without understanding of them don't you ?

 

Before we go to far into this rabbit hole. The novel is an Isekai time travel novel. So NO magic.

 

Your idea of things in common is that they--steam engines, cannons, and boilers--all deal with high pressure. There is much more to it than that. The steam engine has to turn a wheel with steam power, while the boiler just tries to generate steam from water and fuel. Lastly, a cannon doesn't even deal with steam, it's just a tube with a closed end, so that pressure can launch a projectile out the other end. You could say that boilers are part of the steam engine, but they cannot be considered of equal complexity. And complexity is the most important here. I could throw in Internal combustion engines, as well. After all, they also deal with high pressure, do they not? What about my little bro who used to shoot spitballs out of straws, that also deals with pressure. It's similar to a cannon, yes?

Uhh, my apologies about the boiler thing, I assumed you meant any vessel used to boil large amounts of water, not industrial-type boilers. Mostly due to their comparison with cannons, which I envisioned as, like, 1500's era cannons. Sorry about that.

As for belittling him, I am not. I am stating factual inaccuracies in his ideas. Unless you also believe that eels do not reproduce. Plus, my point was that Aristotle was a product of his time, thus his wrong-ness. An outstanding product, as I'm sure you would say, but he is still from more than 2000 years ago. No one, and I mean no one, from that long ago could be right about everything.

The problem is that you said that, in fact, all one would need to do was "pull a Steve Jobs". Need I remind you?

So, in this case, the MC would not be enforcing modern thought because he's not even present as they "figure it out".

Anyway, even if he's there, the problem is that he can propose the idea, but it would require a lot of modern thought reform if he wanted his advisors to help him on it. He'd need to teach them why it works in order to have them make it without a blueprint. I can also poke a bit more at Aristotle, who thought that gravity didn't make things accelerate down and they fell at a speed proportional to their weight, something that can be disproved very easily. That's how behind they were back then; it'll take more than a bit of reform. If the advisors are the ones developing it, they have to understand how.

Honestly, I think that cannons would have been a better invention to go with since they're much easier to prototype and explain. Although there might be some complications with the availability of gunpowder. Steam engines for that era are somewhat impractical since they're so ahead and require large amounts of coal, metal, and manpower(transportation) to support. What would you use them for, anyway? Trains? That'd require laying tracks, a human resource nightmare for ancient times. Siege engines? A bit too niche to justify such a large expenditure of resources.

 

I agree that Steve Jobs could it, and so did Bill Gates, but they’re both technological visionaries who are also leading the projects themselves. On the other hand MC is a soldier who doesn’t specialize in engineering or anything of that sort, it would be like the blind (or half blind) trying to lead the blind. MC is a modern man, sure, but just because you came from modern times doesn’t mean you know how everything works or how to build one. Can you build a coffee machine from scratch? Do you know how to craft shampoo? Off the top of your head do you know the best way to hammer iron so it turns into steel? Modern times means specialization because we no longer need to worry about how to do it all (like grow our food etc), if an engineer was the one who got isekai’d, then sure they could probably do it. But what about a chef? A chemist? An accountant? Even with 10 years, I don’t think you can achieve results with just a vague idea and a team of people who might not know what you’re actually looking for; I’d argue that if anything you’d need a lot more time.

 

Wow! Someone came prepared. Lol.
Let’s start off saying. I admire you thoughts and agree with many of your points. It’s refreshing and gives me pause on the MC difficulties. Than slap on the fact I enjoy a good discussion. Lol. So thanks for your thoughts.
Now back to the discussion.
I was a little confused about your reference on boilers because the boilers I was referring to was those in a steam engine. As to comparing canons to boiler. Their not that much different. All you need to do is cap off one side of a canon and you get a boiler. That’s why I can compare them. Sure there are more pieces to a steam engine, but not much more. As to comparing it to an internal combustion engine. The canon may have two or three parts at most like the trigger and such. While the steam engine has six parts more or less. While a combustion engine has around 16 parts or more. I’ve seen some combustion engine with hundreds of parts. That’s just parts alone and that’s at the low end. The precision on each one has a huge technological gap. But still the canon is closer to the steam engine than the combustion engine. That’s why I compare them.
I’ll leave the Aristotle discussion alone because I have no right to judge him.
I still don’t see the problem of using a Steve Jobs move on other people.
What the MC should have done was find out who built the aeolipile. Than hire him to build a steam engine. I would than give him all the resources he could possibly need. Than I would use what little knowledge I had to influence him on what I want. I would have a scribe to keep me updated. When he starts to slow down I would randomly pop up and suggest some ideas. Than continue that pattern until he creates a crude model. Than I would start building trains. Over time with real world checks. I would have him improve the design over time.
Also before the trains even come about. I would already laid down tracks everywhere. I would have train wagons pulled by horses. Until trains come about. Just so we would have the infrastructure in place already. Also having tracks would probably be better than roads. Especially Ancient Greece roads.
At least that’s what I would do

Bill Gates and Steve Jobs we’re visionaries, but for our MC. He had more than that. He lived it and breathed it. He was surrounded by it. So for him it was not just a vision for him, but reality. As to leading the project. That’s what I’m complaining about. Why didn’t he! Sure he was a soldier in the beginning, but he has been the Emperor for over 10 years.
To tell you the truth. I could probably build everything you said, but let’s get back to the MC.
What I would have done. Well I pretty much stated what I would have done on my last post.
So yes I would have push to have steam engines within 5 years at least

 

Nah. The job of an emperor is to connect ideas with the means. I think it would be far more efficient to work on already existing technology. I'd create several engineering teams, tell them about stuff I want to see them try to make, and have them compete. Most likely, there would be several solutions to the problems by these engineering teams, some of which I might not even have fathomed, and they might be better than my own ideas. It would be much better, in my view, to work with what the engineers have an understanding of, and then focus on improving that.

At the end of the day, the ancient Greeks had Greek fire, right? That's patroleum-based. Why would I spend a bunch of my time, effort and resources to try and explain a steam-based engine I don't understand, when one of them might've invented a much more efficient petroleum engine given a bit of creative freedom?

 

Not long considering there is already a simple version of a steam engine in ancient greece.

As for why no one thought of improving it is more on practicality. Steam require fuel and the available fuel are wood and oil(not petroleum) which is used in other more crucial tasks such as cooking , lighting and warmth. Coal is relatively unknown as this point. There is also the subject of metallurgy as it is not as improved. Heck even the engine of the industrial age has problems as it require an occasional hit with an hammer to get it unstuck.


Steam power improve once the problems as resolved .

 

Thanks, I do try a bit too hard to argue on these xD

How dare you neglect my brother's spitballs!
Ok, back on track. But yeah, my point is that six is a pretty big difference. And while ye olden cannons are literally just a very tall iron cup with a hole for a fuse so that the explosion could be vented in one direction to launch a projectile, boilers (that aren't just pot/haystack boilers) are more complex than a simple sealed cannon; there are mechanisms and tubes through which water and steam are drawn and released. It requires understanding of physics besides intuition to make one, especially those beyond 100 psi.

Of course, the steam engine is closer to a cannon than an ICE. But that doesn't mean they're comparable. Boilers are part of a lot of steam engines--this is true. But a cannon is not like a boiler nor is it like a steam engine. While both cannons and steam engines seek to convert chemical energy into useful kinetic energy, that is where the similarity in their function ends; steam engines seek to provide a constant output, while cannons are for launching a projectile. Rudimentary cannons can still be practical and yet are very simple, but the simplest useful steam engine is pretty complex.

When I said they're a nightmare, I wasn't kidding. Besides Greece's rather...bumpy terrain, which would make it a pain to construct rails, rails require a lot of resources. Think paving roads, but with metal and wood and hammering rather than just laying down crushed rock. It's not just a lot of labor for the laying, but for the forging of the tracks, nails, and boards. All without factories to make them. A lot of wood and iron will go into it, something I doubt an ancient economy could take. Perhaps you could go with smaller-scale tracks, but this would also lower the usefulness and kind of erase the point. Trains were only useful because you could save resources and move things large distances faster. Having a train network would also mean that you'd need a bit of infrastructure in place; everything would need a schedule to make best use of the tracks. Not something easily achievable back then.

The aeolipile was first described by Vitruvius, a Roman architect who was not born until 400 years after the end of Ancient Greece.
(Edit: was referring to Archaic Greece, which history.com equates to Ancient Greece. Dang you, history.com. He can still be considered in the age of the broader Ancient Greece, which does include later periods like Roman Greece. Woopsies. However, he is still later than the Classical period, which I think is generally what people think of when talking about Ancient Greece. Classical period was when all the philosophy, art, and Peloponnesian Wars happened)

Its Greek name and alternate name as "Hero's engine" is due to Hero of Alexandria's description of it, and he came a hundred years after Vitruvius. So, uh, that's a bit problematic.

 

For some reason I feel like building a Steam Engine would be quite difficult
But I guess with the power of an Emporer, and previous knowledge that it's possible, you could give engineers a head start

 

Imperial Decree:
(Emperor): "I had a dream. A dream that one day, blah, blah, blah".
The Empire will benefit greatly from this device.
The Emperor asks every citizen to ponder how this can be made.
Rewards will be given for scholarly thesis and dissertations advancing knowledge towards the creation of this device.
Rewards will be given for working prototypes proving concepts in this field of study.
Rewards will be given to the persons, families, guilds, and cities who can bring this device into reality.
The Emperor wants you to make his dreams come true!
Will you be that hero?

 

Oh. I like this idea. Sounds like a faster way to get a working prototype. So I’ll do that. As to Greek fire. I totally forgot about that. That’s a good point. I don’t believe a combustion engine is feasible at the moment, but it’s definitely worth trying.

As you stated. A simple version exists. Being an Isekai and a Emperor. I don’t see those issues being a problem.

The aeolipile not only prove the concept of steam power, but also piping.
As to the infrastructure of tracks. Romans have always been know for their roads and their cement. Which arguably is even better than modern day. As to rails and ties. Their not that complicated, but there would be a need for a large amount. Road ties just need a certain amount of dimensions at least, but they don’t need to be uniform. As to pig iron. You can cast rails. So none of this is difficult. Especially since bloomery have been around for a long time. So rails and nails can be done.

 

The main problem here is that back then using metals for buildings wasn't common because it was hard to forge. I don't think casting was viable, since even Roman furnaces did not reach 1200 degrees Celsius, the upper melting point of pig iron. I don't doubt that they had cement, but they did not have cast iron.

While China was producing cast iron in 400s BC (perhaps earlier) already, that's China; cast iron did not appear in Europe until the 1400s AD. Maybe you can get some people to make a very long trip to China for the technology, but producing so much iron is also likely beyond the ability of Ancient Greece. I'm sure they would celebrate you more for introducing cast iron for other, immediately useful, things, rather than laying rails.

Railroads also must have drainage systems so they don't get covered in water, and bases other than the rails and ties. Laying them requires a lot of manpower and time. And did I mention that they also have to be kind of straight? So one would need to flatten the ground or construct tunnels, which would be hard provided Greece's rather not-flat terrain. Not a job for Ancient Greece's smaller population and less advanced technology.

I think I mentioned this as well, but having railroads also means schedules and stations, because having collisions is bad and people need set places to get a train. But communication technology was also rather rudimentary at the time. So that's also a problem.