Discussion How long would it take you to build a steam engine in Ancient Greece?

Idk, a week, maybe two.

 

As to pig iron existing during this period. Yes it did. It was a byproduct of copper. Which Ancient Greece did have. Personally, I’d build a blast furnace. But that’s me. Pig iron or wrought iron can be dated back to Ancient Greece by way of the construction of monuments like the Iron pillar of Delhi, built in the 3rd century AD.
As to Roman roads being straight is so funny. I almost fell off my chair because of that. Let alone drainage. Lol.



As to schedule times. Simple fix. Double tracks. No problem.

 

TBF, I think a lot of modern people have at least theoretical knowledge of how to smelt and refine iron, even if they've only heard of it from elementary school history class or some TV documentary. Refining iron wouldn't be a difficult thing with an emperors budget, all you really need is a sturdy clay oven, some people to work it with bellows for 24 hours straight, and some carbon to remove the impurities from the molten iron. With just that, you can make steel that rivals what we can do today with modern equipment.

Now, working that steel on the other hand...

 

The thing is, what we need is a lot of iron, quickly, not steel; @Cutter Masterson suggested using cast iron, but that requires high temperatures to completely melt pig iron using blast furnaces, which, again, was not present in Ancient Greece.

The thing is, if I want to make rails fast, hammering each of them into shape is too cumbersome. Not to mention all the work that has to go into operating those bloomeries manually when you’re trying to make miles of track for trains.

Uh, I was talking about the rails you would have to be laying, not Roman roads? It would require more manpower is all. Or do you want to lay tracks directly on Greece’s rather rocky terrain?

I highly doubt that your average Joe knows how to make a blast furnace. I’m not talking about whether pig iron existed during this period; I’m talking about whether cast iron was available in Ancient Greece. It was not.

Also, I don’t think pig iron existed in Europe during ancient times. The production of pig iron did include melting it into liquid, something that Europe did not have during ancient times; wrought iron, which was present in ancient Europe, was made without completely melting iron and could be made with 900 degrees Celsius furnaces, which indeed existed in ancient Europe. Pig iron did not appear in Europe until after 1000 AD. Copper smelting slag may have iron in it, but you wouldn’t be able to get pig iron out of it without melting it in a furnace that’s sufficiently hot.

Of course, I’m sure you could spend time developing blast furnaces, maybe even make them water-powered, but it’s not going to be quick and painless.

As with the existence of cast iron in 400s BC China, the existence of the Iron Pillar of Delhi doesn’t prove anything about Ancient Greece, because it’s in India, which, I might say, is still pretty far from Greece.

Double tracks = double the labor.
And you’d still need schedules, because people still have to know when a train’s coming. Unlike cars, trains can only follow the tracks, and there can only be one on each section of track or you risk crashing. Train tracks/lanes are much fewer than road lanes, and therefore the number of trains on them must be limited.
Each train can only stop for a limited amount of time at a station, so appointments have to be made about what to load and unload in that window. In modern times, we also have double tracks, yet they are still strictly scheduled.

 

Do you know how to seal the pistonhead for a steam engine to prevent scalding hot steam from escaping? I'm sure as a modern man, you should know how to do it without resorting to the internet, no?

Didn't the Chinese guy who first invented gunpowder kill himself by accident? And IIRC he was looking for a recipe for immortality. That is what you are doing with these kinds of trial and error, putting people's lives at risk for questionable gain. Even "developed" steam engines come with the risk of explosions in the past, after they became "common". A prototype kludged together from ancient tech? It's a high pressure bomb, literally speaking.

"I am the Emperor of Man and I have dreamed of a Warp Engine that can travel faster than light, now gather all the geniuses in the world and make it happen.". You think it can work? Even the whole global human civilization does not have the basic concepts for such a thing, only fanciful stories and no, throwing more money at it is not the answer. If you don't even know where to start, even if you ordered people on the pain of execution of them and their entire families and threw all the money in the world at it, it is still useless because people won't even know where to start for a working solution.

 

You did mentioning roads. You may not have read the novel, but Roman and Greece are mentioned. That’s why I can remark on the “Hero’s” steam engine. As to laying down tracks on Greece rough roads. That why I mention Roman roads.
The thing is for a novel. As long as it’s possible and within reason. It should be doable. With a combination of technology or insight. Things can be built.
My stand point in this thread was. Why didn’t the MC build a steam engines?
He had his experience. While limited. Is still proven. Even as a kid. He should have had the basic of a steam train. Maybe not everything that’s need to build one, but enough for a start.
That is also true about iron. He may not know what it look like in its base form or how to smelt it down. But he knows what steel knife can do.
Just watch tv shows or movies should have done it. You are bound to see things. From a cartoon of a train traveling up a hill. To a action movie with swords. You know they exist. This is not some made up dream the MC had, but his real life.
The next step is making it reality. As Emperor you could find people. Even as distant as China or India, but I doubt that would be needed. Wootz steel was around the Mediterranean area during this time. And steel is far harder to make than wrought iron.
I’d have two groups at least on each project. I’d let them try their own ideas. Than give them suggestions.
The Greek/ Romans had pipes. So they knew how to roll metal and wield it. Cap the two ends you get a boiler.
That leaves the slide valve, cylinder, steam reservoir, piston, and a drive wheel. Using similar techniques you can build a steam engine.
As to train schedule. Personally I don’t see that as an issue. I mean even if you limited it to only military use. It would be far better than horse and wagons on normal roads.
Just on a side note. While the MC in this novel is terrible at inventing things. He is apparently good at organization. So he has implemented many many laws and reforms. So I don’t see him having a problem with this.

 

I think the biggest error in assumption would be this, that somehow by some miracle, someone with the needed knowledge will miraculously appear from thin air. This is not really a given. Sometimes you WON'T find the man at all.

 

I do actually have personal experience on welding on steel ships. As building a piston. I mention it on the post before.

Yes, I believe he did die. As to deaths. Let me ask you how many lives do I save because of my personal experience. Because throughout history there have been many deaths in the beginning of many technology. From steam to flight. But with a modern man. I know at least some safety precautions. Let alone the disastrous history behind some of those technology.
Besides I hate to say this, but lives are cheap back than. Especially with slavery. Personally I rather have my name written in stone as one of those who build the first train. Than die a starving slave on a farm.
Than let me ask you. Should we never develop new technology because it may kill us.

You missing a pivotal part. The MC knows it exists and may have even ridden on it. Also let’s be real. No man in this world has the same power as Emperor of Roman back than. Your point on people disagreeing with him is all the evidence I need.

I have to agree. I hate “Plot Armor”. But really it’s up to the MC to bring together the men to get the job done. These men existed as far as we know today. People like Daedalus or Heron. And as I’ve said before. People minds or intelligence haven’t changed over the centuries. All they need is a push. Just pull a Steve Jobs. That guy didn’t know squat. He just went into a room and said like an Emperor. “I want my entire music library in this small device”. Than left. Guess what happen next. They built it.
I’m not saying this isn’t a little hard to believe, but there have been examples of it in history.
Just saying

 

"Et Tu Brute?"
I don't see how people disagreeing with him proves your point that he can do anything. In fact it might prove the reverse. And end up with the Emperor having a knife in his back. Or poisoned. An Emperor has power. He does not have the ability to make decisions without paying the consequences. How many of your powerful Roman Emperors got assassinated?

As for "building" a piston, as I already said, how do you seal the piston head to prevent steam from escaping? The "Romans" did not even bother with that, seeing the aeolipile as a toy rather than as an engine. And this isn't a snark or throwing cold water, it is an example of why even modern man cannot do everything even if he knows of it.

 

Dude. You did not just reference Shakespeare as an a example of Ancient Rome? Did you?
As to wielding metal. Yes they use to do the same thing for pipes and valves.

 

I think the main problem with building a steam engine is that it’s skipping a whole lot of steps.
Before setting up a train system, I’d say improve the overall technology with the steps that preceded it.


You could improve the smelting industry; depending on which period of Ancient Greece it takes place in, you can take steps to popularize iron and even introduce steel (although making steel will not be easy).
You can improve agriculture; various agricultural techniques that didn’t exist back then could be applied.
You could make/popularize other, less complex inventions, too. Compasses, woodblock printing, soap, etc. would certainly help a great deal. While waterwheels existed in Ancient Greece already, you could apply them to many more things, like forging.
Advancements in science in general would help a lot, too. Introducing some basic principles and allowing people with more time who are more interested to make further efforts isn’t that hard.
Medicine also had a lot to improve on. Basic ideas about how diseases work, and measures like vaccines and sanitation would greatly improve life for citizens.

All in all, I’m not sure why you decided that the thing to go for was the steam engine. Besides technical limitations, population size at the time was lacking, which meant labor would be a little short, and mining technology and speed probably wasn’t very up to par. Best to grow your economy and strengthen your country a bit first, yes?

I think they were just making the point that Roman Emperors were not always supported by those supposedly under them. I mean, the play was about Rome.

As for welding, I don’t think that was possible to do with iron, other than simply forge welding things together by hammering them together while they’re soft from heat, which isn’t as easy as other forms of welding for pipes and valves.

 

You have to admit if people in the past knew of an easier, cheaper and all round better device/ equipment. They would choose that over the clunky crude device they do have. Right?
For instance. Would you rather have a Gatling gun or an AK. Be warn the Gatling gun often jams. Among other disadvantages.
So skipping steps is not all bad. Besides with jumping over steps. You also steer clear of possible deaths. I know @Nightow1 had that concern and this is one of the ways to deter it. By bypassing disasters and only work with proven ideas. We also bypass the deaths that would cause.
Well, to tell you the truth. Steam power probably wouldn’t be my first choice either. But the MC hardly does anything. Except creat reforms and laws. Even you have commented that a canon would have been easier to build, but the MC never even tried is the problem. When considering how many battles he’s been in. That just doesn’t make sense.
As to why I focused on steam power. Is because of the way the novel was written. Many times I’ve come across a point and said. “You know if he had trains. He wouldn’t have this much trouble”. And that’s why I focus of steam power. It’s just frustrating

 

Except an AK would be certainly more complicated and difficult to repair and make in such a setting. There are pros and cons to everything, and in my view, the costs outweigh the benefits of making a steam engine.

I mostly maintain that you’re overestimating the amount of labor and resources an Ancient Greek state could muster, and overestimating their level of technology. It’d be best to go with something with like a compass, that has very little cost, to boost your economy, so you can implement all these far more ambitious projects.

Actually, it’s not the development of steam engine that’s problematic, since you can have a smaller team work on it to consume relatively little resources. It’s the drastic measures you’re taking to try to make it useful, and by that I mean the whole train project. Besides the fact that trains would need an astronomical amount of coal and iron to make and operate (and repair) by Ancient Greek standards, the project also requires the laying of a lot of track, which consumes far more astronomical amounts of iron, wood, and labor, and the setting up of train stations and schedules.

 

A Gatling gun is almost just as complicated as an AK.




While an AK


Both require precision equipment to make.

Personally, I think labor is my last concern. That’s how the ancients built most of their wonders. It was through thousands of labors.
As to a compass. While easy to build and small enough for it to be a luxurious item. I don’t see a market for it.
As to lumber and iron needs. Well that’s just a matter of infrastructure. If it takes hundreds of people to do what one machine can do. Than all we need is thousands. Let’s not forget. We don’t need the greatest minds to cut wood. We don’t need engineers to cast a rail line. It will take time and a lot of effort. As to finding the resources to do this. Please remember what I’m suggesting is quite small. Especially compared to modern needs. In fact there are many location with coal or iron. Their just not enough for commercial value. So nobody mines them, but a small venture is definitely possible

 

Ah, my bad about the gun one.

As for the labor needs, lemme give you some numbers.
In 5th Century BC, the population of Athens and Attica combined was about 300,000, including 100,000 slaves. Keep in mind that those are not all working adults; it includes children and women, who, in Ancient Greece, usually did not do labor. Cutting down so many trees to make ties and manually forging all those rails and nails is not to be taken lightly.

As for the availability of iron, it was considered a precious metal and reserved for the elite before 500 BC, after which it became popularized due to use of iron in more western parts Europe that Greece traded with. But no matter which period of Ancient Greece it’s in, producing rails when they weigh 30 kg/m is going to be real difficult. (That doesn’t include nails or ties, BTW. It’s just the rails—and I’m using a measure lighter than industry standard today since older trains were probably slower)
For context, if I were to make all the iron produced in a year of the entire Roman Empire, I’d only be able to make less than 3000 kilometers of track. That’s not Ancient Greece, either. It’s the whole Roman Empire.

 

My opinion is similar to Shiny, that you might have massively overestimated their manpower, resources and tech. If you tossed me back into ancient Greece, I won't be pushing for steam engines, that is too high a jump, much safer and more reliable to go for something as technically unambitious as a handcar instead first. Technology is built on top of other technology and sometimes without the prerequisites, you simply can't get it done. For example, in the seals that I mentioned, they are either made from vulcanized rubber or oiled ring seals, both of which either requires access to Asia or a successful petroleum refining industry. Modern day steam engines almost certainly require a petroleum industry, which was why it only came about successfully in modern times (or 1700s, modern enough). And even in 1700s, the first steam pump had problems with soldering, more than a thousand years after your indicated time period.

Much more reliable to jump to train handcars first before trying for high end tech. After all, you don't have to invent muscles.

Ironically enough, I suspect you would be better off "inventing" electricity and the dynamo or electric motor than steam engines, especially since electric systems don't require such high tolerances to pressure and are fairly simple. In fact, your "battery" is simply 2 different chemicals partitioned apart and connected by a circuit. Just because history took a long way round does not mean you have to follow.

Edit: Wait, come to think of it, weren't the first steam engines made from copper rather than steel because copper was easier to work with? I got reminded of that after remembering that even the ancients worked copper, so they would have no problems with copper wiring.

 

It depends. What's my cheat power? Can I use my magic laptop to search for detailed images of blueprints?

 

Italy has deposits of iron in Cogne, in Val D’Aosta region, on Elba island and Sardinia and coal in Sulcis area, Sardinia. Being ancient times forest was everywhere. As to labor. Being Emperor implies multiple city states. Not just Athens and Attica. I’m talking about Sicily and most of Italy. I thinking I could find a few slaves. Besides the MC has been conquering many clans and city states. There are tons of war prisoners.
I am not taking the issues lightly, but finding solutions to the problems.
As you said iron was precious until it isn’t. I mean even if they were mining gold. They wouldn’t dare steal from me. As Emperor I control most everything from trade to patrols. As to escaping. Lol. Where would they go. Anywhere they tried. Would be too far to reach.
As to getting enough of any resources. The solution is infrastructure. Streamline. Division of labor. Lastly technology. The simple device of a pulley can go a long way. Just to name a few.
I think I at least have shown it’s feasible

I do like the handcart idea. At least for the interim. I thing I’ve shown that it’s feasible to have built some crude work around in 10+ years.
As to your pistons. I don’t believe rubber is needed. Even thou the Greek had Greek Fire. So they had some sort of petroleum byproduct. I don’t thing it’s needed. I believe a hardy piece of cloth wrap around the piston and tied off will suffice. We’re not trying to get 100% capture rate of power. I’d be happy with 70%. So it doesn’t need to be airtight. This will work until our manufacturing and tolerance are better. Than the technology can improve.
Personally, I agree with the dynamo. Than again I never said I wouldn’t also be doing research into that as well. Lol

Sorry no cheats. Other than what you know and being Emperor

 

Last we were talking I thought this discussion was about Ancient Greece, not Rome...it's in the thread name, isn't it? Italy wasn't part of Greece last I checked.

Precious things can only be precious if they're limited. In this case, in pre-500 BC Ancient Greece, iron was scarce and therefore precious. I was talking about how hard it'd be to get. As for labor and resources, bruh. Even if you were the unquestionable, undeniable monarch, undertaking such a taxing project would no doubt cripple your economy, because you'll be focusing on a long-term project which will take a long time and a lot of resources and labor that could be going elsewhere, and it will not benefit you in the short term.

It's not just a matter of division of labor. You need roughly 2000 wooden ties, and, as I said before, 30,000 kg of iron, per km of laid rail. It's not just iron deposits and forests you need, but miners and loggers that can keep up with the demand for these resources. You need smiths that can forge the iron into nails and sections of rail. You need laborers to transport, put together, and lay those rail tracts. This is an astronomical amount of resources.
The earlier mention of the population of Athens? Well, Athens, at roughly 230,000 residents, was the most populous city-state in Classical Greece. I'm sure you could muster a population of at least a million by joining all the city-states, but probably not more than 8 million. This is not a lot. It's like if you were the unquestionable monarch of New York, but everyone but you is Ancient Greek and lives spread out over a few hundred to a thousand kilometers apart, and you can only relay messages to them by horseback. Also, not all of them will know Ancient Greek.

Overly ambitious projects like these do not have no repercussions. Like the Sui Dynasty, if you don't manage things right, you will crash and burn and hurt the state more than help it.

 

Italy had many Greek City States.