This was a predictably boring read

Planet isn't even close to being overpopulated.

Almost none of the problems you list have anything to do with overpopulation too. Most of it's just from the fact that as a species we give no fucks about solving things that aren't a direct immediate death threat, and even if it is we often find a way to ignore it.

 

Well, overpopulated if you consider places like India and Africa but given current trend Japan will be extinct as a country in about 50* years:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/05/16/national/social-issues/japan-becoming-extinct/

 

Correction: The planet is overpopulated with Capitalists (people who only care about their own wealth & maybe their immediate family)
The planet can handle a few billionaire Capitalists & their employees profiteering from it's resources... but thousands (2775) of arrogant snobish billionaire Capitalists & their employees competing to Capitalize on the resources of Earth ? ...that breaks the ecosystem :

...The Land is being degraded through runoffs in top soil for Industrial farming/Intensive farming (short-term profits for farmers)
...The water bodies are being degraded (Oceanic dead zones) through the runoffs from over use of pesticide & fertilizer in Industrial farming/intensive farming (short term profits for pesticide & fertilizer companies, like Monsanto)
...The people are drugged/over medicated &/or over-vaccinated (short-term profits for pharmacy companies, like narcotics manufacturers, vaccine manufacturers, etc.)
...The planet is being microwaved by 5G satellites from low orbit (short-term profits for companies like Space X)
...Animals in Intensive Animal Agriculture are machine-milked in so deadly conditions, that people have now started rejecting animal milk in favor of nut milk/grain milk. (short-term profits from Intensive Animal Agriculture is now getting over)
...Animals in Intensive Animal Agriculture are raised in so deadly conditions, that people have started rejecting animal flesh in favor of soybean based meat flavored products. (short-term profits from Intensive Animal Agriculture is now getting over)
...The bees are dying
...The birds are diying

 

I agree with part of all that, but it's not billionaire's dropping plastic wraps on the ground, into the water supply etc. Picking the top and their employees just scapegoats them for all of mankind's behavior. Especially since as soon as a poor person gets any type of wealth their behavior is the same.

As for your point about Intensive Animal Agriculture... no, the reason why people care about that is because they live in countries in a Post-Food Surplus. Mainly middle class white people in rich countries can reject animal flesh and milk because they have that privilege. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but the cause is the lack of actual need for it, wealth lets you get picky.

 

US subsidizes animal farming, including Intensive Animal Agriculture. (Trump started subsidizing regular farmers too, but that's offtopic)
In most countries outside USA, animal products are a luxury that only the middle class & above can afford to buy. So, by rejecting animal products, they are rejecting that luxury.

 

I think you have a strange confusion of how people live outside the US. For example most rural communities around the world eat animal products. Eggs, milk, etc are daily products in rural China, India and most of Africa for example. Plenty of poor people would eat more if they could afford it, and when they can they do.

Animal products aren't a luxury only the middle class and above can afford, mass amounts of it are though.

Most vegans in 3rd world countries are living that lifestyle because of religion, not because they "decided to reject luxury".

 

1. I never said anything about rural or urban.
   
2. an occasional once a month or once a year 'Sponsoredmeal does not count
   
3. China has officially alleviated poverty by November 2020, so China shouldn't count.
4. I live in India, therefore I know the current situation here.
   1. the cost of pulses & grains are much cheaper than meat or milk by weight
   2. Poor people live on daily wages, and some days can't even afford the cheaper source of protein (pulses). let alone meat/milk/egg.
      
   3. The current Prime Minister, & Covid-19 has only worsened this situation for the poor people.
5. Vegetarian lifestyle because of religion is NOT called Vegan
6. Religious Vegetarian lifestyle in Hinduism/Sanatan Dharm is called Sattvic diet, and includes Milk, Milk products, & Honey.
   
7. Religious Vegetarian lifestyle in Jainism/Jain Dharm is called practicing Ahimsa, and allows milk, but restricts root vegetables, pulses, seeds, Honey., etc.
8. Vegans are those who eliminated all animal products and only animal products in their daily diet.

If you don't believe me about the poverty situation in India, here's some quotes from NGOs...

...or you can Google for yourself: "poverty in India"

 

That's a special case though. Most people are not working to send money to an impoverished family in another country. So the causal relation still holds.

 

Actually, most foreigners who go abroad do that.
Remittance is big business
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remittance

 

That page says remittance is one of the largest financial inflows for developing countries. It does not say it is a significant financial outflow, which would be the correct statistic to attempt to estimate whether it is an exception.

For example, India's $80 billion dollars in remittance in 2018 is a mere .4% of the USA's 2018 GDP.

 

1) Your initial argument was that people were rejecting meat and milk due to deadly conditions in Intensive Animal Agriculture, but now you argue that poor people can't afford it. Which is pretty much the point I initially made. My other half is that if they could afford it they would eat and drink it, because they don't actually care about Intensive Animal Agriculture.

2) I know you never said rural or urban, I mentioned rural because much more of the 3rd world is rural than the 1st world, for example 65% rural in your nation of India. Animal products are much more available in rural areas than cities, especially since many families will raise chickens or other animals for internal consumption, not for sale outside. Meat/milk are more expensive in cities, which goes back to #1 point above.

3) I know most religions are vegetarian not vegan, my point is that the small fraction of vegetarian who take the next step, to vegan, are mostly from those religions in most areas, not atheists or others in those countries.

Again, my point is that the majority of people rejecting meat/milk, due to deadly conditions in Intensive Animal Agriculture, are 1st world middle class or richer. Unless you have some evidence that the 3rd world middle class are rejecting it, for that reason, I don't see your point.

I don't doubt India has lots of poverty, I just don't see how that's relevant to the point I made.

 

I think I did not make my point properly.
I am saying that foreigners in developed countries send a lot of money home since you said my example about Filipinos is wrong.
What you should look at is not the US GDP but India's GDP.
How does the Indian diaspora affect India's GDP? Thats the question
US GDP is irrelevant

Due to its large diaspora and overseas expats population, India consecutively remains the top receiver of remittance, e.g. with US$80 billion in 2018,[3] US$65.3 billion (2.7% of India's GDP) in 2017

 

I don't doubt India has lots of poverty, I just don't see how that's relevant to the point I made.[/QUOTE]

1. As I have already said: Poor people in 2nd world & 3rd world can't afford meat. A portion of the middle class in 2nd world & maybe 3rd world are going vegan, rejecting meat & milk due to the deadly conditions they are produced in.
2. In a capitalist society, availability does not mean affordability. Rural or Urban has no correlation to food purchasing power. Families raising chickens or other animals consumption in rural regions are considered rich, and usually the landlords. Poor farmers may raise cows to sell milk, to buy grains/pulses/vegetables.
   
3. That's also wrong. Most Religious organizations have their own humane & Non-GMO animal farming facilities. And those who do not, can buy from those who do. Therefore, people associated with religious organizations have NO need to become Vegans. Also, according to surveys, more Vegans are Atheist & Agnostic, than religious.
   -https://www.livekindly.co/why-so-many-vegans-are-atheist/
   -https://faunalytics.org/survey-of-vegans-2013-the-results/
4. Don't know about any 3rd world countries, but a significant portion of middle class in India is going Vegan, where "mock meat industry is set to reach $1 billion in the coming five years", apparently due to hygienic concerns in this Covid era. -https://theprint.in/opinion/indian-...taking-off-especially-in-the-pandemic/645493/ India is a considered a 2nd world country, & may reflect the situation in other developing countries: South Africa, Brazil, Indonesia, Vietnam, etc.

Yes, most foreigners who go abroad, do send money back to their family, but only until they bring their family (mother, father, wife, children) into the country they are working in.
...Except China. Chinese who go abroad to study in universities, are recommended to come back to China.

 

Long wall of texts for a boring thread is kind of ironic, isn't it?

 

1) Again, in #1 you argue "rejecting meat & milk due to deadly conditions" which is an ethical argument, then in #4 you argue instead that it's about hygienic conditions. Those aren't the same thing.

2) So your argument is that a farmer who raises cows to produce milk doesn't drink any of it? And a rural family with a few animals is rich? Then 60% of rural India is rich I guess: https://www.swissre.com/dam/jcr:1c8...966f7525abb9/Livestock_India_brochure_WEB.PDF

3) Also I'm aware of vegans, my ex-wife was one. 1st world vegans are mostly atheist, mostly left leaning, mostly female, mostly from middle class families. My point on that is that the movement outside the 1st world to vegan isn't the same demographics. Or are you arguing that the middle class of India is Atheist/Agnostic?

4) The article literally mentions nothing about rejecting meat due to deadly conditions in Intensive Agriculture....the entire objection I made to your point initially. Outside of the mock meat it's mostly feel good anecdotes that make the reader feel included, and doesn't mention Intensive Agriculture once.


Nowhere did I argue there's no veganism outside the 1st world, or even that it's somehow bad, but again my initial point is still the same: rejecting meat/milk due "deadly conditions in Intensive Animal Agriculture" isn't the reason it's happening.

 

Deadly conditions for the animals are unhygienic & disgusting for humans who eat meat/milk from those animals. Maybe you should see it to believe it:


I am saying, there is nothing in any religious scriptures restricting people from drinking milk, but you don't seem to grasp this point.

 

Projecting why you are rejecting milk/meat doesn't mean that's why others are. Feel free to link some poll not your feelings/anecdotes.

If you want to actually read about polls, read this: https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-animals/growing-risks/slideshow/78716678.cms

The polls show that people in India aren't worried about animal cruelty or feces in their milk, they are worried about the next disease like Covid coming from farm animals, like Swine Flu and Avian flu's came from animals. That's not conditions in Intensive Farming, that's fear of disease from animals in general.

Not fear of quality of meat/milk, not compassion of cruelty in farming, but fear of animal to human transmission like Covid.

That doesn't mean there aren't people who care about cruelty or quality, but the major concern people have is diseases jumping species.

They literally don't want some farmer in India creating Covid 22, or Covid 23, etc. That's what your article was talking about above when it mentioned health concerns.



I do grasp that "there is nothing in any religious scriptures restricting people from drinking milk", nowhere did I say that the religions in India ban milk. That's a strawman you made up all by yourself. Feel free to scroll back and quote me where I said religion ban milk/meat in India or anywhere.

Edit: Apparently it's confusing what "Most vegans in 3rd world countries are living that lifestyle because of religion, not because they "decided to reject luxury"." meant so here you go: It's easier to convert vegetarians to vegans than meat eaters to vegans. Because there's many religions that are vegetarian or near vegetarian that makes them easier to convert. People's religions in countries outside the 1st world make them a bit more amenable to veganism.

 

I never rejected milk/meat/eggs, as I trust my sources not to have 'pus' or 'pathogens' in my milk/meat/eggs.

Quoting myself: "Deadly conditions for the animals are unhygienic & disgusting for humans who eat meat/milk from those animals." You really should see the Youtube video I posted above.

Some people are rejecting milk/meat/egg because the deadly conditions animals are raised in, while others are rejecting milk/meat/egg because they don't want to get sick from the pus or pathogens in the milk/meat/eggs. It is essentially the same thing, hygiene of the animals matter even if they are food.

No it is not, because Religious people live by scriptures, and I quote myself, "there is nothing in any religious scriptures restricting people from drinking milk".

references please

 

oh the lie flat movement~ well if ya treated like almost slave then nah this cat country worker will endure some then leave later~ currently on trend and supported by government youngsters and people to create small scale businesses~ mostly on food back then but dunno about now~ some people do say this cat country worker lazy but meh typical generalizations~ there no lie flat movement cuz small scale business is main drive here hmm informal sector unlike east asia~

as for dating, the young generation prefer seek stability on career or monetary rather than marriage but dating stuff for sake of dating still normal~

there are dating app and stuff so meh the east asia problem is their problem nyahahaha! we have our owm problem~ the contraception stuff hmm the government since long ago promoting 2 children for each family still on going~

da government actually on agenda make economy on urban area center on tourism as start but everything change when you know ba~ so nah no time for lie flat~

about crime on women there still ongoing persistence group albeit small to make better and wider scope about current law about protection of women and children, we have such law but still insufficient~

btw 1st world country, 2nd world country and 3rd world country term fumu~ did you people from cold war era or something? such outdated term ya know~ developing country and developed country learn to use that~
here the lesson
1st world is country is western and allied country
2nd word country is eastern block aka da commie
3rd world country is the neutral~

on asia iirc only 3 developed country: Japan, South Korea and Singapore~ anything else is developing country so pfft really people and here this cat think it common sense, maybe outdated term is the common sense~

 

I literally gave you a summary of the poll of why people were changing their food habits. That's still all your feelings about why they are, nothing substantial again.

Are they forced to never go vegan by their religion? Still not seeing why you are making this strawman about something I never said.
Most of Peta India's vegan staff are Hindu (https://www.petaindia.com/blog/peta-indias-position-on-religious-festivals/) are they not Hindu because of it?

Because reducing food choices one by one is more effective than going cold turkey, most people who convert to Vegetarian/Vegan quickly also convert back because of a lack of planning for diets. It's also why advocates try to use vegetarian diets as a basis to convert people to vegan, because they convert back less often than people who jumped from a heavy carnivore diet. Retention of vegans has been studied a lot, for example here:
https://faunalytics.org/how-many-former-vegetarians-and-vegans-are-there/

Lots of people go vegetarian or vegan, but every study shows that the closer the starting point to a vegan diet the more likely they are to convert for a long term, and the fewer foods eliminated the easier it is to stay vegan.

The difficulty in eliminating foods is shown on how many labels there are like lacto-vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian, etc. and how many vegetarians list a specific food as the reason they can't go vegan or went vegan and went back to vegetarian.

https://faunalytics.org/a-summary-of-faunalytics-study-of-current-and-former-vegetarians-and-vegans/
Animal welfare is one of the more common reasons people go vegetarian/vegan, but it's the one of the least convincing long term.
"Concern for Animals May Have Limits: With the exception of pork, lapsed vegetarians/vegans who were motivated by animal protection consume animal products in a similar fashion as those without animal protection motivations"


I've no clue how many Indians know all the above research, but the people writing books, working in Peta, and companies developing milk and meat alternatives know it. It's been researched for quite a while now.