Discussion Spears

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Epythymy, Nov 17, 2021.

?

Do you like spears?

  1. Yes

    20 vote(s)
    83.3%
  2. No

    1 vote(s)
    4.2%
  3. Indifferent

    3 vote(s)
    12.5%
  1. Epythymy

    Epythymy Well-Known Member

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    Lots of novels have spear wielder protagonists.

    Spear is second only to sword in popularity. And that's what I can't understand. What's this craze over spears is all about?

    Swords are romanticized and overrated, but you can't deny that they are cool! So I can easily understand why swords are number 1.

    What about spears though? It's just an ugly long stick with arrowhead (I'm talking about most basic ones).

    Spear is an easy to use hard to master weapon. So if you're a complete amateur and you know that you will fight monsters right here and now, than it's the right choice to pick, but that's it. After adapting to new environment why not throw this ugly stick away? What's with this usual logic 'oh I've already been using this trashy mop for the last 3 days, so why not make it my main weapon in the future!? After all it's a well know hard to master stick, how can I abandon it!?

    I wish someone will insert a couple of spears into authors' assholes for such logic.

    Personally if I will ever get into such a situation where I will need a cold weapon my choices will be:

    1. Spear. Only if I need it immediately, a bit later I will definitely discard it and pick up something that I like. The only version of spear that I can accept(long term) is naginata, but it's definitely not the best option IMO.

    2. Katana. If I know that I will have to deal with both humans and monsters I will choose sword. Being handsome swordsman is a man's romance. Slicing sounds easier and safer than piercing to me, so something similar to saber is my choice.

    3. Dagger. If I will deal mainly with humanoids it's a dagger. Assassin route is the way!

    4. Scythe. What can be fcking more badass than a scythe!? If your ass is bored and looking for adventures by thinking about picking something hard to master then it's a scythe! Greatsword can be an easier alternative but scythe is the best.

    For me 'spear wielder' tag is a complete turn-off. I don't know why, but I dislike spears, I simply never liked them. Spear is cumbersome, somewhat awkward and the idea that you will be useless in extremely close range isn't helping either.

    Why is it so popular then? For protagonists in fantasy worlds things like 'it's cheap and easy to make' are irrelevant. Especially when you have help of some cheat or system you can pick whatever you fancy.

    It feels like most authors only know about the existence of 2 weapons. If it's not a sword then it's spear! You can say that 90% novels are like that.

    I don't see how spears are superior to hammers / axes / bows or whatever any other cold weapon. What's pushing authors to choose spears most of the time?

    P.s. While thinking about scythes and looking for arts I now want to re-read soul eater after stumbling across this one art

    [​IMG]

    P.s2 I actually wouldn't be so bothered by spears if only they were rarely seen, but no, every 3rd protagonist is waving this stick like he is being possessed by something.
     
  2. slightofhand

    slightofhand Well-Known Member

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    There are a lot of Chinese folk heroes that use spears so spears are popular in Chinese novels. Not so much with things like hammers, axes and the like which were primarily European weapons.
     
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  3. Baldingere

    Baldingere Roseau pensant

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    Halberds look rad.
     
  4. Epythymy

    Epythymy Well-Known Member

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    Jp and KR novels have plenty of spear wielders. They are basically everywhere. Who didn't have a hero with a spear? It's not a reason to push them so forcefully. Heroes wielded other weapons too.
     
  5. Amaruna Myu

    Amaruna Myu ugly squid dokja (●´∀`●)

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    if a spear is hard to use, I can't imagine how much easier a scythe would be to wield.
    I think most of the time characters use this weapon because it is slightly more ranged? and yes it looks cool especially the fancy ones, compared to a normal blade (though it can be argued that blade sometimes look cool too)

    personally, if I was in a fantasy world, I would use magic because I have 0 confidence in my physical strength
     
  6. tsundere_taichou

    tsundere_taichou [Cute Demon Sect]

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    spears are one of if not the most effective melee weapons so makes sense.
     
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  7. BigBadBoi

    BigBadBoi Well-Known Member

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    This is the gayest post I've seen all week and this is a forum full of fujos begging for BL recommendations.
     
  8. SwordEmpress

    SwordEmpress Well-Known Member

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    Don't know why but I always get conflicted when I see soooo many swords style.
    [​IMG]
    Then comes the Spears
    [​IMG]
    Take your pick people
     
  9. IrregularPerson

    IrregularPerson Well-Known Member

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    1) I have to counter argue that it might be staves or staff's that you're thinking of. But regardless a good weapon is a sturdy weapon.
    2) Sure it's a man's romance but to actually slice through bones and flesh... honestly you can look up Shadvesity or any historical weapon master/enthusiasts. It's a whole lot easier to stab and pierce an organ, the same with having a point to jab into an armor's defenses such as the joints. And like you mention, they can be discard and easily resupplied, spears are more often used in warfare.
    3/4) Surely you are kidding? The scythe was a tool for farming and became a staple weapon aside from the grim connotations of a reaper, assassins would dress as peasants and farmers and wouldn't draw attention to themselves. Real scythes aren't as tall or big for that matter, if it was, it be an imposing weapon and at most it can help you pull people in like a hook. Not to mention sharpening the blade would be damn difficult.

    A spear is plain, simple and efficient. For that matter you can shield your infantry and arm them with spears to stab at the horses. And the matter of it being a mid-ranged weapon can be easily solved with hand-to-hand combat. Blades are for one thing expensive to make, two, brittle and if you have seen any depictions of it snapping, it 100% happens. And the shrapnel are as much as a threat to you as the enemies weapon.
    As for why it appears frequently in fiction for the most part, cause they're epic. Even our ancestors realize that spears are the accumulation of human wit, and has been that way since prehistoric times. It doesn't take much. In reality swords are used to fulfill a man's fantasy. You can check the first episode of goblin slayer and then complain about a sword's range lol.
     
  10. Epythymy

    Epythymy Well-Known Member

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    What you said works irl but not necessarily in fantasy worlds. As I've said in my post, protagonists usually don't really need to consider anything too much. Who has no dreams, wishes or any individuality?

    Even short dagger wouldn't be bound by 'distance' too much thanks to all kinds of qi, aura or whatever.

    Even a brick can be top tier weapon in hands of some MCs what's more a proper weapon
     
  11. Nimroth

    Nimroth Someone

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    So the weapons are just there to be decorations?, you could just as well have them grapple all the time then.
     
  12. Epythymy

    Epythymy Well-Known Member

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    They are more like a foundation? Somewhat similar to choosing your play style / skill tree in the game. Cause even though it's technical, pure basic weapon mastery skills only matter in novels with low fantasy elements

    There are exceptions of course, but that's how it is most of the time.

    A typical scene in cultivation novels will be swordsman protagonist picking up a wooden stick / tree branch and destroying everyone with it cause he achieved some kind of enlightenment on the path of sword.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
  13. asriu

    asriu fu~ fu~ fu~

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    so basically you think spear less cool than other weapons~
    and it seem some authors just not care about it~
    end of story~ other seem just barabara blablabla nonsense

    meh~

    it just matter of preference~ on war history the melee weapon goes like this
    spear, if it broken or useless goes to sword, if it broke again last resort is dagger~
    tbh most MC who only bring one weapon is idiot tho~ oh well considering fantasy and such just let it slide~
    sword is quite versatile weapon

    anyway just accept some people spear think is cooler than whatever weapon you choice
    19665.png
     
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  14. IRandomGuy

    IRandomGuy ohhh, custom title...

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    This just sound like a bias rant.
    Both weapons have their use and specialty. Some situation, the longer(& alternating, since hold position) reach is better. Some situation, it better to have an 'edge' over the opponent(heh).
    If a spear is "ugly stick with a tiny blade", is a sword not a "ugly blade with a short handle"?
    And once we add in magic, what the point of differentiate? My 2 meters spear now have a 4 meters magic/kì blade extension, do I have to call it a sword now? I manipulate my sword from a far, with the magic connection between the blade, is it now a Kusarigama(blade & chain)? Heh, I manipulate that same blade, but this time, the blade is alway point outward like clock hand, so the magic link is perfectly straight, does that not make it a " pretty magic stick with a tiny blade"? Heck, add magic to club, you like blade?, the magic blade extension is longer than the length of the club. Have fun!
    Honestly, I don't see the big deal with weapon hate on both side. It just a blade and a handle with variations on length.
     
  15. Kadmos1

    Kadmos1 Well-Known Member

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    I am picturing an isekai with a polearm user named William who is a playboy, hence William Shakespeare!
     
  16. Selha

    Selha Active Member

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    China, Korea, and Japan all have a huge amount of people who love romance of the three kingdoms so I think the point still holds. Obviously glaives, halberds, and spears are different, but they all have the same kind of feel to them which is why I suspect spears are still so popular.
     
  17. Zeusomega

    Zeusomega M.D of Olympus Pvt Ltd. Seeking [Boltzmann brain]

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    XD

    I mean you have put a mishmash of practicality and personal likes, I don't know which to pick and talk about..


    Spears were war weapons.. emphasis on war....their true power is in numbers.


    They fall into mid-long range weapons so you can keep your foe in a distance while keeping your body safe.


    Swords were short range and personal guards....they were like your innerwear, everyone on field had them, a short one, long one any....

    If in a war (not too old) if it came down to sword fights then it is already a gruesome no win situation.... Too much casualty on both sides.



    In a fictional world where a single human could level up to decimate entire armies I fail to see any practicality in these cold weapons...



    I mean you could forge a d*ldo and shoot sword qi out of it... nothing stopping you XD

    They just go on this meta physical stuffs that at the core don't even make use of the weapon structure physically.


    Ofcourse I'm talking about later down in xianxia levels...at the mortal point they are still useful.



    Personally in choosing...I'd rather be a jack of all trades in weapons...cause none of them are perfect to all situations.


    A spear for first jabbing monsters at distance, sword and daggers for close combat, bow for sniping the mantis (if u know the proverb)






    Ps: but my fav weapon is actually kusarigama....

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Epythymy

    Epythymy Well-Known Member

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    Cause this was the point of my post. I know that spears are useful and practical, but I dislike them. So to me it's a wonder that it's so popular and you can find it in every 3rd novel.

    So I wanted to ask why is it so and if lots of people seriously like it?

    Unfortunately most 'experts' who showed up here only repeated the same 'spears are op' line and that's about it. I especially mentioned it in my post (that I understand its practicality) in hopes of avoiding them but it didn't help.

    About the romance of three kingdoms was probably the only useful reply.

    The result is somewhat surprising but was expected?
     
  19. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    You do not understand that practicing any kind of weapon, regardless of whether it is spears, swords or guns, require dedication, practice and skill. Some are better at some weapon than others. Some are completely useless in some weapons. However, if your mindset is "I'll use this spear until I can get a sword" is very dangerous.

    You see, a spear and a sword are two completely different weapons. Your skills in spears do not transfer to swords if you choose to make the switch. Granted, if you've only used the spear for 3 days it would've been impossible for you to have achieved any skill in it anyway, but a true practitioner will not throw away a spear just because 'sword is better'.

    Bruce Lee's famous quote said, "Don't fear the man who knows 1,000 techniques. But fear the man that has practiced one technique 1,000 times." And this is correct. If your time is finite, and you try to learn everything, then you will excel at nothing. But if within that same time, you practice that one move 1000 times, you would have been a master in that one move. What this means is, instead of switching weapons, if you keep using that spear, you would be a master in that spear within the time it takes for you to get a superior weapon.

    Back when Ai-chan learned naginata, we practiced downward strokes at least 200 times a day. Once we can perform two-handed downward strokes at at least 10 meter per second, we proceeded to two-handed right-to-left downward diagonal strike. Only once we passed 10 meter per second slash do we get to learn the two-handed right-to-left horizontal strike. But just because we moved on to the next stage of our training, doesn't mean we stopped doing straight downward strokes. We still do it 200 times a day and it is much easier now despite having to do 600 strokes a day in total, because our muscles are already conditioned to the use of naginata and has acquired muscle memory.

    You're probably thinking, 200 times a day is nothing, I can do that any day. You're probably thing of hitting something playfully for 200 times. Its nothing so stupid. You are holding a 1kg naginata above your head, with a stance to maximize downward impact, and then you bring it down with your whole strength, and then you also stop the momentum with your whole strength before the blade part hits the floor. That takes a huge toll on your muscles.

    Now as for your other weapons:

    1. Spears - Ai-chan is not fond of the short spears thing. They have their uses, but the advantage of the spear is its reach. So to Ai-chan, a short spear of less than 3 meters is less than useful. Ai-chan would rather wield a long axe.

    2. Katana - You misunderstood. Slicing is not easy or safe. To slice anything with a katana or a curved blade, you need to get up close and personal. The bottom of your blade must hit the target. Then you pull the blade, so that the entire length of the blade hits that exact same point, causing a deeper wound. What this means is, you will start at 0 meters, then as you pull away, you create a distance, but you will still never go above 0.5 meters. You will always be inside the strike range of your target. Hitting the target once with your blade is not slicing, that's hacking, and that's how you use a horse chopper, not a katana or any curved blade.

    3. Dagger - Urgh. Most of the supposed use of dagger as a fighting weapon is pure fantasy. Technically medieval archers did use daggers to kill knights, but only after the knight is unseated and disarmed, because fighting anyone using only a dagger is suicide. Dungeons and Dragons popularized the use of daggers as very short range battle weapon or an assassin's weapon. But a real assassin would not use a dagger except as a last resort. They use poison.

    4. Scythe - Scythe is not a real battle weapon. Lindybeige mentioned it once in a video and Ai-chan complete agree with him. It's horribly unwieldy, very heavy, and offers a lot of openings to be exploited. In Ai-chan's opinion, only Sailor Saturn's Scythe of the Goddess of Death, is a usable scythe, but that's only because it's named as a scythe, but is actually a naginata.

    5. Greatsword - Greatswords are not easy! Where do you get that greatswords are easy to use? They're basically a longer (and maybe wider, depends on the culture) long swords. Long swords are not that easy to learn. You have reach, sure, but long swords are also heavy. Unlike long swords, you can't use a shield with a greatsword, so you have no protection against arrows, unless you also wear thick plate armour. 5kg greatsword plus a full thick plate armour to resist arrows does not translate to a pleasant day.

    Below is Lindybeige's video on battle scythes.

     
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  20. Epythymy

    Epythymy Well-Known Member

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    Ai Chan you've also made a mistake by talking about real life references and how realistic/practical it is.

    Even though I'm not a cold weapon enthusiast, I still knew most of the things you described simply because I've read too much novels.

    And that's the main point. I am talking about novels. What's the most problematic thing in the beginning? - It's overcoming initial fear and getting some battle sense. After getting used to it a little and surviving the first few encounters you're basically free to do whatever you want in current popular novels.

    • Time and lifespan isn't an obstacle in most fantasy worlds. You're free to spend any amount of time you want in mastering your weapon.
    • In xianxia worlds there is concept of techniques and enlightenment, which can give you immense help in it.
    • VR / Game-like worlds with skill panel are even easier. You're picking a brick, killing 10 trashy goblins with it and you will get something like a passive skill 'brick mastery' that will amend most of your mistakes. Then you use skill points and you're a master.
    • Novels with system are like a joke here. You don't even need to do anything and system will give you everything to make you into heavenly grandmaster. You fancy a shovel? No problem, here, take these 99 passive skills, titles + god grade items and you can hit them however you like.
    First gen novels, especially xianxia ones were based on reality, logic and common sense. Every choice MC makes matters. But unfortunately not now. After 10+ years auditory can't care less about any of this. Sooo is also the reason why I find it all the more stranger.

    P. S when I was talking about slicing with katana I didn't mean slicing people in two or cutting off limbs or whatever. In my amateur eyes simply doing several cutting wounds that are not too deep and grinding down your opponent looks easier and most importantly safer than going for deep piercing stabs. I think it's a very good way of seeking death when your skills are low. (Waving your sword around like a crazy retard is the way! At least people will think that you're insane and will be wary of you!)

    Also about scythes. All I care about is that it looked extremely badass in different anime. It's not a weapon? Not practical? Hard to use? A shit ton of openings? Who cares?

    If I will ever get a chance and enough time I will definitely pick it. Maybe not as a main weapon but as auxiliary (just to satisfy my cravings).

    Is it a wrong way to look at things? I don't think so, most slice of life - like fantasy novels nowadays are purely wishfulfillment. Why don't they pick something that they like?