$20 for a sponsor chapter = WINNER

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by Xianxia2, Mar 15, 2016.

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  1. Vanidor

    Vanidor Well-Known Member

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    Yes it's illegal most places. Whether it's immoral depends who you ask. Legal and moral aren't the same. That said, many Chinese author's don't care because they don't own the copy write (the site they write on owns it). And others have no plans to exercise them since a decent translation can cost thousands per book, that might never be made back. The same with many Japanese WN's.

    Japanese LN companies generally don't care until they are licensing translations, it's not like they don't know the translations are out there. They aren't stupid. They mainly ignore it, like they ignore doujinshi, because it builds their audience. When they are about to make money they crack down.

    If you don't feel it's moral, don't support the translators and don't read it. It's that simple. If it really bothers you then contact the original author and complain there. Yahoo answers or others can give you the complaint phrasing.
     
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  2. xTachibana

    xTachibana Wincest King

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    yeah, its technically illegal in the same way listening to music on youtube on any channel other than vevo and the original artists is illegal, its "illegal" but no one gives a shit, and if they did give a shit, the video would be taken down due to copyright claims, if they havent claimed it yet, that either means they dont care, or they cant be bothered with it (both of which would be in a "grey" area of law, since you cant be prosecuted for copyright infringement without someone filing a copyright infringement claim)


    its grey because its not black, nor is it white, in this analogy, black is you being prosecuted or fined for the illegal actions, and white is you being given permission beforehand




    it has also been brought to my attention that if someone (the author) releases a work readily available online for free (through 17k or qidian, syosetsu for the japanese WNs), it shouldnt fall under certain laws


    ie, if i was a famous cook and put up a recipe i made online, viewable for free, i dont have the right to sue someone if they decide to use it in their store (make a profit off of my idea)


    obviously i wouldnt be able to confirm the above unless i ask a lawyer, but yeah, not worth the trouble tbh
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2016
  3. Feinzell

    Feinzell Well-Known Member

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    @Slimikyi its just rough estimate and for traditional book publishing with established publisher, not for self publishing book/ digital copy. in my place, self publishing book with 300 copy takes around $1000. so, its much cheaper with self publishing but with greater risk or lack of exposure due to no marketing campaign or certain exposure that publisher brings. with additional rates of translation around $400-600 for public access book/material
    .

    I am agree with you that the content of chinese wn are lacking in depth. in my other post (i don't know in here or somewhere else, just forgot lol) i said that donation are a token of appreciation, not obligation or "sponsored". so, the value of chinese wn that lacking in some area, are depending on people's value of happiness of reading that. maybe for you and me, its not worth it for give donation and settle with some ads or adfly as appreciation for the effort ( small gesture of thank you are included). But, for some other, maybe they want to go extra mile (edit: give donation) because the work are satisfying for them (happiness). So yeah, their value depend on each other perspective's.

    To be honest with you, i find donation and later, certain system that will be implemented in certain site by certain persona, steers away from the original intention of this community that is sharing for love. i was glad with donation system which is optional and helping TL teams to motivate themselves, and i thought this is the end of the line or bottom line with fan translations. But, i was mistaken. With addition of new system that will be implemented in certain site, they tried to monetise something that they didn't have any rights (unless they already have permission for author and publisher), something that they should sharing for the love of the work, something that we cherished and feel gratitude to them for translating, and for something that will change the landscape of this community.

    I ask everyone deep down inside... is this what we want for the future of our community? when you first time encounter this great community, what thought/feeling are you feel? try remember that feeling. I hope we will keep this community as it was.
     
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  4. palaraya

    palaraya Well-Known Member

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    OP or Mod should change the title this thread.

    Chinese author has their novel copyright, the site has right for publishing.
     
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  5. DarkArts

    DarkArts ✫ First Ancestor of the Assassin Sect ✫

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    Depends on what you're talking about. I have some idea of what you might be talking, which is ww implementing that app(not sure if this is what you're really referring to) but as far as I know that's just an app which you don't have to use and what the people using it pay for is mostly so that they can use the website without ads which I'm already doing with an ad-blocker. I've also seen some ad-block apps for mobile, though I haven't tested whether they work or not yet. What we want for the future of the community? I don't want anything, I'm just enjoying those novels for free without bothering about useless things and things that have nothing to do with me or things I'll never use. I don't see in what way this implement will change my life.
     
  6. Feinzell

    Feinzell Well-Known Member

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    haha. thats alright. i just wondering a bit or stretching bit too far. but i am just like you, wanted to be free reading all those novels :)
     
  7. Arua

    Arua Umu...~

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  8. Vanidor

    Vanidor Well-Known Member

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    It depends, some of them are under work-for-hire. And a few sold all rights not just Chinese publishing rights.
     
  9. VixenKiss

    VixenKiss Machiavelli the Princess

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    Not really, as the OP was more of an appreciation/awareness post than anything else, yet we have people turning nothing into something big.
     
  10. sumguy

    sumguy Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, having actually sat through an actual court proceeding in regard to this, it's completely bullshit in regards to the Berne Convention. If you actually looked at the implementation of it (in North America and China, the only two jurisdictions I can say with confidence as that's as far as my experiences had), local laws ALWAYS supercedes it (unless there has been a major new agreement in the law few years that overhauled it that I'm not aware of). In the US, fair uses and its ilk are a pain in the ass cause there are different measurement to determine if something is indeed illegal. There's also something of a arms war going on as well with textbook publishers due to the fact that it's completely legal to photocopy (not just copy, this is reproduction here) for education purposes, that's why they are tied up with digital codes nowadays that's required to do your assignment.

    Berne convention's primary role is commercial exploitation rights of the right owner barring exceptions. There are PLENTY of loopholes, that's why IP trolls and shit made killings (and pay out their ass when someone with deep enough wallet stand up to them). The UK even have an exception via 'Tales of Caution' if the intent of the work the "illegal translation" was made in was to act a warning.

    To use your example of the "three sentences", it would actually go under a barrage of test. Is the sentence common? Does it act as a market substitute/what level of commercial displacement did it bring? Are the three sentences done so as a quote? To what percentage of the three sentences are the author's own words? Are the three sentences a reference? Are the three sentences 'facts' (this is another one of those big 'loophole' that you claimed have been closed, at least in US courts as it was done as case precedence)? Is it a citation/quote/example? Are the three sentences common knowledge or in common usage (thankfully more rigorous than trademark, copyright is ABSOLUTELY ANAL ABOUT COMMON USE. In your japanese to english translation example, it would NEVER stand up in court)? There are fuck more metrics that I don't remember+know about, but there are quite a bit, but it's usually lump into like 4 category (at least in the US),

    I do agree that people are absolutely confused about derived work, I was probably one of the first ones to actually talk about it years back, and people are misunderstanding it or misusing it. Derived work is illegal without permission, absolutely (and people seems to KEEP FORGETTING THIS FIRST PART). But it also protects the translators' translation from being used without their permission even if it's used by the original author (this was actually said in one of those Q&A by one of the publishers' legal ppl).

    Again, citing Berne convention is a load of crap, it's the implemented laws as a result of the treaty that takes precedence as the convention itself isn't law and the laws are inconsistent across countries. That's why the shit with google and apple being sued (and ended up having to pay) in China happened IN CHINA instead of the US where the payout is more substantial (and politics, always politics)

    Also, WN also matters despite what you say in regards to them being free. Refer to the writers petition about a few years ago, in China of all places, that eventually got the government involved to punt Baido in fixing their stupid user library bullshit. From the writers involved, I remember quite a few of them were exclusively WNs only.

    To make it simple. The act of translation itself isn't illegal in regards to any laws that came as a result from signing onto the berne convention. Translating without permission still isn't illegal. It's when it became publically accessible (even behind a pay wall) and done so without permission that it becomes illegal.

    It's the old VHS-Betamax trial all over again in regards to this. As long as it's private and non-commercial, with no public access, it's absolutely legal to translate. I can, in theory, translate something like popular literature, hide it in my own server, where I only allow certain people to access to, and I'd be completely fine, at least in NA. Because it would absolutely destroy the market substitute metric. This, of course, wouldn't work if the translated work breaks another set of laws like in your case of translating secret stuff. Commercial espionage falls under a completely different set of laws :p

    I do have issue with self-righteous idiots that keep calling JP->EN LN+manga translators thieves, since they are completely ignorant of how the industry work or the history behind it. It was the publishers and license holders themselves that encouraged translations until recently, because people have been exploiting their works commercially (different from fan-translators who often share at the expense of themselves). These... dense wagonclingers and 'newcomers' for a lack of a better word (and not trip up a mod) are not aware of the history with JP->EN and go bashing at the translators with their accusation is just sad to see. But the demands have been increased, and everyone at least "know of" anime and shit, so I guess fan-translators will slowly become a thing of the past in the JP->EN scene.

    China is a quagmire for copyright at the moment, so I can't really comment since chinese culture in general have an imitation as an artform mindset, hell, they have entire industries dedicated to it, the most famous being their painting imitators. I forgot the name of the town, but pretty much the entire population's work is to 'illegal' reproduce famous paintings and other pieces of art by intentional discolouration or extremely minor modification of the original, the town alone generate millions of dollars (at least prior to the financial slump).
     
  11. EroticEarwig

    EroticEarwig Well-Known Member

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    Everyone's arguing about the cost/price of translating, and I'm just sitting here concerned about whether the empyrean overlord translation will stall once he hits chapter 50 and finishes the single book hes translating from. :O
     
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