Hi guys! I wanna know how the late empress Ludovica is connected with Shuli? What's the age of Shuli, Norah, and Jeremy? And finally, did Jeremy like Shuli and pursue her?
100% agree with this analysis, along with their following ones. There’s a lot of focus in the manga showing that the entirety of noble societal norms and expectations basically runs the members themselves through the meat grinder, all for the good of the ‘family’ (ie their power and status). I like how showing Lucretia’s (Johannes’s sister, Suli’s sis-in-law) viewpoint helps show this. Heck, she’s the one who outright states that it’s unusual for a noble parent to care about their children as individuals. Don’t get me wrong, Lucretia sucks as a person. But her gripe is legitimate. Johannes was exceptional, but it seems like she is by far the most intelligent and competent of the siblings after him. And yet she never had a chance. Her dimmer brothers were given education and a certain level of authority, while she was expected to just be pretty arm candy and marry well. She managed to succeed even within the confines of her role (she is a leading member of society), but she’s still subservient to her husband. The bribe that gets her to help Suli, despite the bad blood and her own pettiness, is just owning her own property independently. Based on the comments it doesn’t even seem to be that extravagant a place comparatively speaking. Owning your own property is a pretty low bar by modern standards, and THAT was her dearest wish that was out of her reach all because she wasn’t a boy. I feel like Ohara’s redemption in the 2nd lifetime is really just her having the opportunity to escape the same toxic mindset. We can see in the current timeline, she’s maybe 14 and yet her dad is basically ordering her to be a honeypot. Doesn’t matter if she likes Jeremy or not, their marriage will help the family’s standing. And we can already see that his expectations are putting a lot of stress on her. In the first timeline she never got an opportunity to be anything other than his pawn, and likely never even considered that there was any other option. Noble women belong to their fathers, up until they marry and belong to their husbands. Her dad was in some shady politics, so she had to help and either rise or be dragged down with him. As per spoilers, her seducing Elliot was out of desperation. The jig was up with her dad and the only way to escape was to marry and therefore no longer be part of that family. Jeremy wouldn’t have anything to do with her, so she went after Elliot. And as much as it was a terrible thing to do, it’s essentially what her dad had ordered her to do for the fruition of his own plans. Now in the current timeline she’s being exposed to more positive influences. She’s seeing Shuli standing on her own, independent of father or husband. And if she continues hanging out with the kids she’ll be exposed to a healthy family dynamic, where the parent doesn’t just see the kids as chess pieces. The kids are also just morally upright and willing to stand up to people who are wrong rather than just playing the game. All of which I can see giving her the ability to even see defying her father as an option, and the fortitude to do so despite it also causing her fall had Elliot not stepped in to protect the family from her father’s sins. (Good comparison is that we repeatedly see Jeremy saying that he’s a dutiful son when backing Shuli or following her instructions. But he’s listening to his ‘mother’ because she cares about him and is doing her best by him. Ohara mentions that she follows the rules, and seems to have a reputation for being dutiful. But in her case, since her dad sucks and is solely concerned with his shady political maneuvering, being dutiful means being a scheming witch. Being exposed to Jeremy’s brand of filial can make her realize that the path her father laid out for her is the wrong one, and the chaotic younger sibling can help her realize that she can choose to jump off of it.) Lastly, I still kinda adore the Empress. She’s definitely not an ideal person, but I like her no BS attitude. Her actions in recent chapters were out of vindictiveness, but I maintain that it wasn’t just the usual inferior wife jealous of previous prettier better love interest. It seems like she was close with Johannes herself, and expected him to entrust things to HER until Jeremy was old enough and able to take the reigns. And yet Johannes was giving the responsibility to a child he’d just recently met and picked up from the boonies. Really, any of us would have come to the conclusion of ‘okay, so you’re ALSO stupidly obsessed with a dead woman’. Remember, the whole trial fiasco was arranged by the clergy. She just took the opportunity to test Shuli, upping the ante by demanding Jeremy’s hand. She never intended to actually go through with it. (It even possibly helped Shuli’s position, as such a harsh punishment on a child had the lords argueing for leniency). Had Shuli failed the Empress would have taken the reigns on the holdings as she should have from the start, as per her POV. But she flipped completely when Shuli proved WHY Johannes had entrusted her with everything. Being passed over because Johannes was lovesick for a dead woman got her back up. Johannes having a good eye has her wanting to help her old friend’s protégé. And I also get the feeling she knows the 1st prince is shady. Openly favoring him seems likely to be a political move. It’s even possible that her openly not backing her own son afford her weak willed son some protection. If his position is so low that even his mother isn’t backing him, there’s no need for anyone to spend the effort to drag him down.
When you said Elliot, you meant Elias, right? Anyway, I'm actually surprise that in the first timeline, Elias was willing to accept Ohara despite what she had done to Shuli (I know she didn't know that her father and the others conspired to kill her, but still she's being mean to her by lying about Jeremy not wanting her to come to the wedding). Ohara was indeed her father's pawn, but she did love Jeremy, which is why she hated Shuli out of jealousy in the first timeline. Now, in the second timeline, as you said, while Ohara does love Jeremy, she's also pressured by her father to get Jeremy to be interested in her so they'll get married as adults. Her interaction with Elias and the other kids seems it would be the start of her changing, but I read in a spoiler that Ohara will still hate Shuli even in the second timeline because, just like in the first timeline, she's jealous that Jeremy fell for the latter. I wonder if the manhwa will still go through with this or gonna change to make Ohara not hating Shuli. The Empress does look sharp and not someone who can be easily fooled. She hated Ludovica, but this doesn't stop her from judging Shuli fairly and when Shuli proved herself, the Empress accepted her without bothering her resemblance to Ludovica. It is possible that she somehow realized or picked up a bit of Theo's true nature. But if she knew, why didn't she do anything then? She seemed to know what happened between Theo and Nora in the past, but from her conversation with Nora's father, she defended Theo instead.
Ludovica has no connection with Shuli. Yes, they're identical with each other, but they're strangers, no blood relation whatsoever. Shuli right now is 16 while Nora and Jeremy are 14. Jeremy likes Shuli, but due to their parent-child status, Jeremy never try to pursue her. Jeremy also knows that if he try, it'll cause huge scandal that'll reflect badly to the whole family. In the first timeline, someone spread a rumor that Shuli and Jeremy are having "incestuous relationship". Elias was furious at them when he heard this rumor. To quell this rumor, Shuli announced Jeremy and Ohara's engagement. In the second timeline, the church accused Shuli and Jeremy of having relationship, which brought them to a trial for the second time. Don't know how this trial ends though.
No, Ohara knew everything about shulli death. It was stated when rachel and nora came to wedding and broke down, ohara got scared, She thought they were only gonna send her far away, she didn't know they would kill her. Ohara knew her family was conspiring to get rid of shulli and when she died, she knew exactly that her father had hand in shulli death. Even jeremy knew, thats why he almost killed her right there and then till Nora stopped him. The only reason she escapes capital punishment in first timeline is because she wasn't directly involved in killing. She was a bitch in first timeline and was still without guilt and tried to seduce the brothers whose mother she and her family just had murdered. And ofc elias the eternal dumbfuck was dumb enough to fall for her to point of making her pregnant secretly ( I think by this point, investigation was finished and the family already knew the truth? - which makes elias much worse) While living he dishonored shulli by blaming her for having incest with Jeremy, after she died he marries one of the parties involved in her death. Worst son ever. Empress simps for first prince, because she is power hungry. She knows when emp dies, she will have nothing left and her own son is useless and cant ascend. So she just abandons her own son and go plays mommy to theo, so she can still remain in power after he becomes king. She is nothing more than a materialistic bitch.
Yes, I already read that spoiler. That's why I said that Ohara didn't know her father and the others conspired to KILL her. I meant that she knew they were planning something, but didn't know that they would go as far as killing her. Looks like I didn't write it clear enough.
It was the bit mean part that had me confused, since she was more than just bit mean even if nothing else. She co-conspired in her kidnapping , Thats why she thought shulli would be sent far away and not killed. ( She couldn't have possibly known shulli would byself leave house perma, knowing her society image of gold digger, so must have accurate plan of removing her from house and sending somewhere out of reach)
I'm not really familiar with this, but why is it considered incest if Shuli is having a relationship with Jeremy? It shouldn't be an incest since they're not even related by blood to begin with and they're only two years apart. And I thought it's already pretty clear to everyone that Johannes and Shuli didn't marry because they loved each other but more like a "contract" as Shuli put it. I know they're raised as a family, but in the end, it doesn't change the fact they're not related by blood. I only saw the Empress in recent chapters, so I'm still not that convinced that she's that power hungry since she's also seems to be the type who would give respect to people who deserves it and she even let Shuli keep her position as the head of the house even though she could've press on more in the trial.
Incest is for all intents and purposes, Shulli is their step mother. From society eyes Johannes son is trying to have sex with his fathers wife and Johanness wife is now trying to seduce his son to stay in power. Blood relation does not matter, In legality shulli is their mother, this wouldn't change even if shulli was somehow younger than jeremy. or even if shulli was adopted daughter instead step mother and this is a world where woman are treated as tools for marriage and gaining power in the first place, with their "virginity" and their "fertility" being their sole qualities bar looks, so ya. That stuff is only semi disclosed in this timeline, because shulli made her image of debauchery in last life, so there is no theo falling for her, jeremy etc trying to defend her and all. In that life shulli already had presented herself as gold digger to society and empress. Tho iirc, in first life it was elias who had trouble with hitting CP, dunno what it lead to tho. Empress is known via spoilers of novels, her character is yea, I mean she is the type who abandoned her own flesh and blood over someone else son because he had higher chance of throne ascension ( Her own son is sickly), And empress stopped this trial because if past empress mention was dragged into the trial, it wouldn't end at just simple matter and emperor would have to get involved, and empress own image would be sullied too, that she attacked shulli so harshly since she is insecure of 1st empress look a like. Her original aim was to usurp the major part of estate of marquiss family , whether or not she would give back to jeremy later is fully unknown.
I kinda have to disagree here. Rachel had the benefit of knowing Shuli on a more personal level. They were family, lived in the same household, and likely interacted with her daily. Regardless of her age and position, she'd naturally have a much better grasp on the true Shuli than someone who was a relative stranger even if he worked with her. Keep in mind going into this, he had nothing to go off of aside from a whirlwind of rumors, her political movements (which, by her own admittance could come across as skeevy and didn't always paint her in the best light), on top of a church that was actively against her. And keep in mind, she was very infamous and it's all but stated that she didn't have many allies standing up for her either. Not justifying anything he did, in fact I'm kinda disappointed it wasn't thrown in his face that he violated his own code, but there is ample room to believe someone distant gathering information about her would come to the conclusion he did. Personally? I actually really love Elias and he's arguably one of my favorite written characters here. You have to keep in mind he's arguably at the most awkward age he could be in his current situation. Jeremy is already (somewhat) matured, and it's all but stated he grew up rather quickly. The twins are at an age where they somewhat have a good idea of their situation, but it's unlikely they have as good of a grasp of the political and societal implications behind their positions. Elias? He's likely around early adolescence, arguably at the most emotionally tempestuous stage of a child's growth. Children that age tend to be emotional, impulsive, temperamental, say things they don't mean, jump into things without thinking first, and are easily swayed by their environment. It feels like a Shinji Ikari situation where he acts exactly as an adolescent teenager would, and that the writers remembered that children that age aren't always the most thought-out, intelligent, or even likeable people. Even his adult self seems to show signs of being emotionally stunted, likely due to the age in which both his parents died and his greater distance from Shuli. Also btw, does anyone know where to find the chapter where it's revealed Elias had an affair with Ohara in the 1st timeline? I'm looking back at those extra chapters but I can't find them. I'm also hearing conflicting things about it like she lured him into a honeypot situation.
No, This is nobility where kids are raised by Nanny's not parents, and combined with the fact shulli adorned persona of terrible wench parent who never interacts with the children. The head knight is NOT a stranger, The butler,Head Maid and Head Knight will know more of the household, its members and relations then those members itself. It is for a reason they have so much prominence in every series, because nobles and children DO NOT INTERACT like us modern world ones, all their communications/reportings on them are done by Butler/HM/Knight. O and Head Knight/Butler/head maid along every other maid - Live with the family in mansion, they spend more time with shulli than all children combined. So no, Rachel is not privy to information Head Knight is by far. Head knight like the Butler and Head maid knew every sacrifice she made , but he was a bigoted piece of shit who didn't want to believe in her and change his mindset of shulli a gold digger. What awkward age? Rachel and Leon are younger than him by 2? years and have 20 times more sensible brain on them. He is a lunatic, shown with the fact that his first idea as a 10 year old to see shulli is pelt her head open with a stone before she enters the house, the worst we saw of rachel and leon at that age is dumping water, after which when shulli got sick , they were terrified and broke down, while Elias was nothing more than, I just wanted to scare her boohoo, no remorse. And Elias being thrash isn't limited to him being angsty horny teenager with hormones going wild, his worst decisions took place when he was an adult - Jeremy marriage is supposed to be when he is 21 years (17 yrs is legal adult age here and jeremy drags it for 4 years) , thus elias is 19 year old by then, An adult and that moment+onward is when he does his worst stuff - Accusing his MOTHER and BROTHER of incest over words of fucking outsiders completely ignoring their own pleas, Berating and shaming shulli just before wedding, and then even later - fucking the woman, who has been at that time been proven of having some association with shulli's death, EX FIANCE of his brother- who abandoned her over shulli's death involvement, a gold digger who tried to take pass even after that happened against Jeremy, then nora etc with sole motive to make a heir to take over their house etc. No thats not immaturity, That is being retarded in the head by a long margin. Parents death does not even matter, All 4 kids lost them and other 3 coped with it well whether were they older than him or younger.
Regarding Elias' part, I have to partially agree with the comment above, Elias is 12 years old (the twins are 9 years old), he is in the beginning of adelescence, subject to emotional fluctuations (due to hormonal variation) and developing a narcissistic tendency (something common to happen at this age). Most adolescents develop degrees of narcissism between 12 and 16 years old. In fact, he is not the smartest person, however, not all children can be geniuses and understand everything and as I said, because of narcissism, Elias did not sympathize with Shuli, as he only saw his own problems. Rachel was the first to realize why she is a woman, she was reaching the age of marriage and must have realized the enormous weight that Shuli carried when marrying the marquis
Why does everyone keeps bringing up Elias adolescence card when he was not 12-16 at either of those issues, We are not talking about his harassment as a child ( which was worst between all 4 childs). We are talking about his actions and decisions as an ADULT of age, The novel verse adulthood is 17 onwards, and between 17-19 and beyond is where he made his absolute worst decisions. The age where everyone in family KNEW of shulli sacrifices as the all 4 siblings talked about it together, He still vulgarly insulted her multiple times 1) Accused her and Jeremy of Incestuous relations, sullying shulli image terribly in society even more than she had and even jeopardizing Jeremy's social reputation and claim as next house head, and continued to believe words of outsiders over his OWN BLOOD brothers and sister and their mother. 2)Telling her to come to marriage shamelessly and then get kicked out of their publicly by jeremy to get humiliated and that it would make a nice scene. He told that to a woman/mother whose hardships HE KNEW off and just had been insulted by ohara and told to get out of the house- that she has no place in it anymore and was confiding to him. What part of adolescence is here? He is 19 years old at this point. And if that wasn't enough, he despite knowing who pushed above two incidents, then further had her family co-operate in brutally murdering shulli, trying to usurp the whole marquis house, ex-fiance of his "brother", a gold digger who tried to spread legs to all the young characters we know to try to get married - He fucked her to get her pregnant and then wants the family to recognize his marriage as a result of it. No, He is an insufferable piece of thrash, You can't brush off every issue to immaturity and issue laden childhood , when he was not the only one who went through puberty. And he never ever improved a single ounce in adulthood and only got worse and worse. There is nothing genius in understanding shulli situation when other 3 were screaming in his face about it and he himself admits to knowing it, yet does all that anyway.
We bring up his adolescence because that is when his parents died. Traumatic events like that can severely hinder and even stunt a child's maturity and emotional growth. I already brought this up in my post above. You have to keep in mind that Shuli didn't really get to act like a mother figure around them. Elias not only was fresh off the heels of a traumatic event, he had no help with his own issues and no parental guardians to rely on- his adult self only having the emotional capacity and impulsiveness of an adolescent was pretty much the natural conclusion.
Could hold water if his behavior before parents died,after it, as an adult was any different but it is not. 1) Both Parents alive - Shulli came to house, pelted by a rock in the head from a high facing window while she was in mid stairs and then she falls down. Elias - 10 year old, not an angsty teenager but a child 2) Parents dead - in chap 1 the endles stairs show the treatment of the children showed shulli - twins sad and in pain over their real mom, Jeremy resentment of taking away father from him, Elias - Inflicting pain on her and she is shown to fall the stairs , get hurt and be mocked. Then chap 2 further states that Elias was the one to cross the line frequently - teenager 3) Adulthood, Im not gonna bother saying that all 3 times. and why does elias get the special treatment like only he went through that tragedy? So did other 3, and they didn't grew up to being a unfilial humans or have that much of shitty personality and the twins were even younger and more heartbroken, since their only hatred to shulli amounted to missing mother, jeremy was of father issues while elias was hatred. The things have nothing to do with being genius or whatnot, Its called having basic decency, shame, remorse and loyalty. But this will be my last post on this topic, If you find him well written and or likeable, kudos to you.
I am not giving him preferential treatment, I am saying that Elias is a complex character like everyone else and deserves equal consideration. He did shit, no one denied it, but most people seem to insist that he did unforgivable crimes. Is he the dumbest of the brothers? yes, he is, because children are not equal, and they should not be created equal, each child has his own needs, Elias was a mischievous child who became an irresponsible adult because like all the characters in this novel he also had traumas and childhood problems. Shuli is the best mother in this novel, but she is not perfect and in her first life she did not know how to deal well with Elias. In the second life I find it quite ridiculous for him to fall into Theo's scheme (the gambling games) but as has been said before, he is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. In the end, everyone likes the character they want, as with the current Empress, they have to love her and there are those who hate her
^Yeah pretty much what I've been saying this whole time. Nobody is saying Elias was justified in what he did. We're saying he's a well-written and believable character. It is very much possible to like how a character is written, while simultaneously disapproving of their actions or even disliking them, I think a lot of people tend to forget this. I like Elias because he is a complex character and, imo, he's written very realistically as to how a fiery adolescent would act in his given situation. That doesn't mean I like what he does or think his actions are right, in fact it's the exact opposite that I find him engaging. You have to keep in mind children of that age are most certainly not the most likable people- they can be stupid, emotional, impulsive, and at times unbearable to be around, I know this from experience. And without parental guidance, anyone to lean on like the twins, or having to grow up as fast as Jeremy, how he ended up as an adult was pretty much a natural conclusion. He is a believable character. His actions- yes even his stupid ones- are believable and make sense from how he is written. Nobody is arguing that he was never stupid or not responsible for his own actions.
This is of course my personal opinion but i feel like a lot of people in this discussion forget that if characters like Elias(first timeline and part of second) aren’t written this story would not be as nearly interesting as it is Yes Elias is a bad person in the first timeline and a bad kid in the second but unfortunately that reflects the reality of the real lives we live in, and that’s what makes him a well written character. if you hate first timeline Elias congratulations the author did her job. And honestly speaking as terrible as it was for him to attack Shuli when they were kids you all know that there are kids like that in the world we live in today. It shouldn’t be surprising knowing Elias’ personality that he acted the way he did and at least we see some character development for him in the second timeline. As well as the fact that both parents were not alive as they lost their mom. When shuli entered the picture she was viewed as a parent but as an intruder by all the kids. Elias just had the most violent reaction to her out of all of them. Also I think people are getting the first and second timeline mixed up because others aren’t being clear about which timeline they are talking about. In the second timeline Elias never knocks Ohara up fortunately they just end up liking each other. He also never slanders shuli publicly like he does in the first timeline. i’d also like to add Just like real life bad people aren’t alway gonna get what they deserve aka the knight, Ohara (first timeline) etc. its unfortunate but that bitter feeling you get is a rarity in these types of novels and i am gonna treasure it.
I am not talking about Elias of second timeline at all, he is improving here, Good for him. But the Elias of first life never improved and always went worse and worse, from violence, to hatred, to sullying their image with scandals, to marrying one of the parties of murder. Sad life can only excuse so much for me. And its not hatred, it is disgust seeing Elias/Head Knight/Ohara etc, because they did terrible wrongdoings to shulli in the past ( and mind you, unlike head knight chopping her to pieces, Shulli does remember everything done by elias/ohara to her), but in this timeline , Both are already into the good people camp, who will never get an ounce of punishment or regret for their actions. Elias is still barely tolerable by virtue of being Shullis family in the end, but I detest seeing the face of Head Knight/Ohara being happy go lucky with this family. Sure you can say, im driving anger towards someone who has not done anything yet, but I regress. The reason past lifes are shown to us is to judge the characters accordingly. That aside, I just pretend these people don't exist and enjoy my reading of the story. It is rare 10/10 villainess/otomesekai story for me, And I hope it stays that way (judging from novel spoilers, it will)
Okay, enough about Elias. The latest chapter seems like 'family back to normal again' now that the charges have dropped the trial is over and more understanding between Shuli, her role, and Jeremy. Damnit, I have to say those twins will give Shuli a heart attack for someone so young. Anyway, does anyone have an idea why Ludovica entrusts her son to her former beau instead of her husband? Seems to me this is the root of all entanglements. I mean, I assume she will entrust his care to the guy she married not the one who she didn't marry. At the very least, Heide is giving Alb something to ponder about their own family.