Spoiler A Stepmother's Märchen

Discussion in 'Spoilers' started by twistingfeelings, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. ruefully-yours

    ruefully-yours New Member

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    Hiya! Just a bit of spoiler-y question: Did Nora and Shuli ever got children of their own???:blobunsure::hmm:
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
  2. justawayUltra

    justawayUltra Active Member

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    The new manga update is driving me up the wall! I hate unfulfilled happy surprises :blobsad: I wonder how the reveal of Ohara's inner turmoil would affect the current plot especially since the Neusch family is more united now.
     
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  3. Eiidachan

    Eiidachan Well-Known Member

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    Reading chapter 58...That cardinal bastard and his no-good follower! Yeah, of course, they were the ones who entinced the knight to kill Shuli! I'm not looking forward for the next chapter...unless they're going to continue the flashback for another time and the next chapter would continue in the present time.
     
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  4. Hypothon

    Hypothon Semi-known disqus/NUF smut/shoujo commenter.

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    It seems there's another difference from my memory of the spoilers, seems like the family's knight has some hesitation with Shuli leaving (and it hurts seeing the kids tsundere characters was what led to such poor conclusion to Shuli's life in 1st TL). At least, it WASN'T last minute regret, by the time of Jeremy's wedding, seems like the kids JUST needed one small push
     
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  5. ATrueStory

    ATrueStory Villainesses, Historical Shit, Noble Circuses

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    I am conflicted when it comes to the kids (yes, Jeremy has a ton of growing to do before I consider him not a kid) and their tsundere. I can't fault them for mistrusting and having a hard time overcoming their feeling about Shuli. They are kids, stuck in a complicated situation created by adults (yes, I'm including Shuli) and what they feel is as valid as anyone else. I get that they are afraid of their own feelings because they don't know who to trust, even OG!Shuli. Imagine being stuck in this situation where the adults control the world and nobody was taking a moment to understand what the heck is going on or attempt to comfort them. I get that they are defensive and some people (particularly the servants) acted in their perceived best interest for the children. But imagine kids like them knowing that people acted horribly for their interest and an innocent person who suffered for them. Instead of being togther with cheer, they boidned over tragedy and burden placed on them.

    Re:Abbington. I hate you, Head Knight, now you're making me conflicted about you.
     
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  6. Alwerien

    Alwerien Member

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    I only started reading this manhwa yesterday and it very much wasn't enough so thank you all for the delicious novel spoilers I found in this thread. Especially the honeymoon moments <3

    As for the latest chapters, just ugh. Everette should be the head captain instead of idiot manipulated by the church who can't think for himself :mad:

    Speaking of, are there any spoilers about Everette at all? I'm so curious.
     
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  7. ErinaNakiri

    ErinaNakiri Active Member

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    Don't fight me but I think everyone in the previous timeline, except Shuli should go up in flames...And here's why:
    Ohara: her mother and father really screwed her over, but her a round don't make me feel sorry for her, especially since she got off scotch free (thank you Elias).
    Head Knight: I believe you had no proper reason to not like Shuli, or to even hate to the point of preferring she be dead. Literally you had no reason to. He followed her around so he should know why she does what she does, but he just can't see past his nose.

    Elias: let me start by saying that I don't think that you can use his age to defend him and then proceed to use his development as an argument in his defense. Simply because the arguments people use about development come from a 21st century view of development and is not suitable for time period this is set in.

    I think Elias grew from being a hurt child to becoming someone self centered and disloyal. Throughout the entire first timeline he only cared about himself. Throws a stone at Shuli then proceed to say whine about how he just wanted to scare her (though he's a child at this point it's still an excuse that is aimed at self preservation and nothing more.) This behavior persists because he does have anyone around him to really correct his behavior because Shuli has more things to deal with and her own stress and depression to come to terms with. As an adult however he slanders her and believes outsiders rather the people he lives with. Even if he doesn't trust Shuli how can he accuse not just her but his brother of incest. Now while Jeremy does love Shuli at this point he wasn't even really aware of his own feelings. And he tells his brother that the rumour was false but Elias doesn't care. He just doesn't care what anyone has to say but is ready to believe random people on the road over his family. And let's not forget that even though he knows that Ohara did, he still went and knocked her up. Heights of disloyalty and selfishness. But whatever. It's plot.

    The twins: I don't particularly have much problem with them except that they knew what Shuli was doing for them but still decided to act cold to get. Now while they decided to make it up to her they were to late. I'm person who believe that your actions speak more than words and they're actions spoke of ungratefulness even if they were grateful towards her. Imagine if the child you were raising went around calling you 'fake mom's when you were literally the only person that gave a crap about their well-being? It wouldn't feel good.
    Jeremy: I have nothing much to say about him except that he should have done something about his siblings behavior.
    The Priest: I despise him more than anyone else. He looked at Shuli when she was just a child on her wedding day and lusted after her while he CONDUCTED her wedding ceremony. And Because he couldn't have her decided to kill her off in despicable plot to start a civil war. Nasty.

    Johan: why did you have to pick Shuli to use a meat shield for your ungrateful brats? So what if she looked like your first love? You literally set her on that perverts path when you decided to use this child in your endeavors to protect your children. That's just not right. Why not ask your wife's family to take care of the children? They have a perfectly healthy maternal grandmother and uncle who would have taken care of them without lusting after their assets. How could you stomach marrying a kid?

    Shuli deserved better than these people. Honestly if I were her I would have left those kids on their own. And I wouldn't even feel guilty about it because I love myself and a part of loving yourself is not allowing yourself to be tormented by people who don't appreciate you. Shuli is a great person, I won't say mother because I can't even bring myself to call her a mother because of the age difference. So she's a great person who fulfilled her duty without even once thinking of running off with their wealth.
     
  8. Eiidachan

    Eiidachan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, Shuli is just too kind. She's a compelling protagonist and love her very much.

    And this is something that just came into my mind, maybe Shuli still decided to stay despite the struggle she must overcome is because she thought returning to her pathetic excuses of parents and older brother would be worse? Who knows what her family would do to her if she leaves the Neuschwanstein. Her parents and older brother are type of people who would be willing to sell Shuli for their own greed and selfishness after all. Her family doesn't see her any worth than that. But with Johannes, at least she feels that she's truly needed and someone acknowledged her potential despite the hardship. Maybe I'm reading this too much though.
     
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  9. Rimuru_Slime

    Rimuru_Slime Member

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    Side Story 1: Honeymoon

    The chapter begins with Jeremy reading a letter from Nora, who is on his honeymoon with Shuli.

    SPOILER P.T 1

    You complain so much about me writing you a letter and yet you are reluctant to write one. The climate of the port city seems to suit my sister. That's a relief. We're both playing so well, and not even thinking about sleeping. Who taught you the habit of disturbing your parents on their honeymoon? Go out and get some air and meet other people, stupid sons. Since this is the last reply, it would be useless to write another letter.

    p. s. Jeremy, don't sit with your legs up on the table.

    "This, this, this... son of a bitch....!!!"

    Warak! In Jeremy's glorious hand, a crumpled letter fell to the floor. Jeremy gave a loud shout while lightly lowering his long legs that were spread across the coffee table.

    It was natural that the Lord of the Lion, the Lion of Nuewanstein, has frightened not only the workers but also his brothers who were about to prepare for the day with their sleepy eyes.

    "What is it?! What's going on?! Huh?!"

    "Did something happened to my mom?!"

    Jeremy did not answer his brothers, who ran out in their pajamas in a panic. So Elias, who briefly exchanged glances with Leon, picked up a piece of paper rolling at his brother's feet and began to read it.

    "Let me see, you little......what. What is this? What the fuck are you doing?! What son?! Who's the son of who?!"

    Elias and Jeremy began to put the blame on each other while looking at the letter. Leon, who had the most common-sense among the three brothers had a puzzled look.

    “It's all because you write letters like this and now he's trying to piss us off!

    As Jeremy is arguing with Elias over the letter, he complains about how his beloved mother Shuli didn't write him a letter and thinks that it's Nora's fault. Robert (the butler) tells him what kind of person would contact their children on their honeymoon.

    The next part skips to Shuli and Nora, who are vacationing in a port city called Emden. The city has become a tourist destination filled with a festive atmosphere and full of foregin tourists. It's been three days since they've arrived in the city.

    SPOILER P.T 2

    "Sister."

    "Oh, thank you."

    "What are you thinking of? I think you've been thinking about something else. Are you tired?"

    "No, no. No way."

    As I recieved the cool lemonde that Nora gave to me, I began to pretend to look around the market that was filled with the scent of the sea.

    Nora looked at me for a moment, but began snooping in front of a stall selling weapons and accessories that would be used by pirates. The salty wind gently scattered his black hair, and the afternoon's brilliant sunshine dyed his tanned face a yellow gold.

    Phew, you're so good. Would a street vendor lady stare at me with her mouth open? No, it's was all about my husband.

    So tonight, I must make up my mind!

    Since arriving here, we haven't had the first night yet. On the first day, I was so tired that I passed out as soon as I arrived at the resort, and the next day, I almost met a bandit near the ship's dock, and somehow, he was just watching me fall asleep. So, in my mind, I vowed to make a decision tonight. The thing that Elizabeth gave me as a wedding gift was lingering in my mind.

    Yes, a gift from our rascal empress.

    As soon as I opened the package and checked the contents, I didn't know how amazing it was.

    No, no matter how much you do, Empress, how could you think of giving me such a gift! What, it's in fashion these days? There's a limit to fashion!

    I was so embarrassed that I put it right back in the box and hid it between the luggages. The problem is that at this moment, the object is doing everything it can to eat into my head. I must be going crazy. I should not dare to wear such embarrassing items, but why am I so curious about Nora's reaction when I wear them?

    "Why are you looking at me like that?"

    "Yes? Ah, it's nothing."

    "It's nothing?"

    "It's nothing."

    Nora came closer to me as I quickly tried to look away. In contrast to his sharp, tapered blue eyes, an incredibly mischievous smile hung around his mouth.

    "I don't think that it's anything. It's strange from the beginning."

    "This is strange!"

    "Tell me honestly. Why do you keep staring at me like that?"

    "What do you mean, I- I always like to look at you."

    As soon as I said that, I felt the urge to shut my mouth.

    Eugh, I sound so stupid.

    Nora, who was trying to swallow the tears of grief, stared at me with a mysterious look and reached out his hand and put it on my cheek. Then, he pinched my cheek, stretching it out.

    "Ouch....what are you doing?"

    "It's because..."

    "What?"

    "It's cute."

    There was a moment of silence. In the middle of this situation, Nora smiled and started to take the lead while holding out my hand as I searched through my confused mind, wondering what to say in this situation.

    "It's going to get dark soon, so let's go eat. I'm hungry. I don't know how long it's been since I've been this hungry."

    Come to think of it, we didn't even eat lunch properly.

    "How about the resturant you went to yesterday?"

    "It's good there, it's good elsewhere. Is there anything you want to eat?"

    I think I should fill my stomach and see everything else first. Then after a cozy dinner..... Next is.....

    Why do I keep thinking of that gift? This is all because of our wretched Empress! You gave me such gift to mess with me!

    Nora and Shuli is having dinner at a seafood restaurant, outside on the balcony. Shuli continues to act weird because of Elizabeth's gift much to Nora's dismay. The waiter walks up to their table and presents a salmon mousse dish. Shuli remarks that they didn't order this but the waiter tells them that it's a compliment dish from the chef who was impressed with Shuli's beauty. Nora says that thanks to his wife, he is able to eat a special dish. This cause Shuli to think about the gift again and she ended up spilling her drink all over herself. Nora gave her his coat and they return to their room.

    After taking a bath, Shuli was getting dressed to go on a walk at the beach. She ends up taking out the box that was given to her by Elizabeth and tried on one of the clothing item. It's a black lingerie with lace sleeves and collars, and the chest is decorated with a red chiffon ribbon. The fabric is incredibly thin and soft. Shuli stood in front of the mirror and began to admire herself. The clothes revealed her bare legs and highlighted her curves. She states that she couldn't take her eyes off of herself. At the moment, Nora calls her from behind the door.
     
  10. Rimuru_Slime

    Rimuru_Slime Member

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    SPOILER P.T 3

    "Sister, have you ever fallen asleep?"

    I was forgetting that this huge, colorful bedroom wasn't my own. I mean, I'm on my honeymoon. The door opened unannounced and I froze on the spot with a short scream. I became frozen on the spot, and there was a pause. Nora stared at me with a look of a sea monster that seemed almost as frozen as I was. I was seized with a sense of fire on my face and an urge to go out into the ground. At the same time, my heart began to beat violently.

    "......That's..."

    "......."

    "That's.... Well, haha, that's what's popular these days, so I was just going to try it on."

    Nora was just staring at me, me who was sweating, laughing, and sweating. Then, in the next moment, he closed the door behind his back and slowly began to approach me. The dimly subdued blue gaze descended from my face to my neck, below it, under the short hem of the skirt. Then, it slowly came up again. It was the first time Nora looked at me with this kind of look, how should I say it? I couldn't tell if it was because I was afraid that my heart was beating faster and faster, or for some other reason. No, it's weird to be scared. So why would I be afraid of Nora?

    "Ahaha..... It's a little too much, isn't it...?"

    "......."

    "Even if it's a honeymoon..? Haha.... I should change..."

    His hand grabbed my wirst without hesitation. I paused and swallowed dry saliva.

    "No-Nora?"

    "......."

    "Ahaha, say something...."

    And I couldn't talk anymore. The guy who was staring at me with a look that seemed like he would eat me suddenly pulled me out and started pressing my lips down roughly with his lips. It was such a passionate kiss that I accepted it without surprise. It was a long night.

    The next morning, Shuli wakes up first and gets embarassed, remembering what happened last night. The power of Elizabeth's costume is very strong and they ended up doing it many times. She stares at Nora's sleeping face and comments that it looks like a gentle child. Shuli reaches over to touch Nora's hair, who then wakes up. Shuli greets him good morning and as she begans to get up, Nora hugs her waist from behind, telling her not to go. They end up doing it again, as a continuation from last night.

    After that, Shuli is out in town and meets Count Hattenstein who is also on his honeymoon. They talk about general stuff until Shuli meets up with Nora again.

    So, Shuli meets back up with Nora and they talk about some stuff that happened 4 years ago. Nora grabbed her hand and kissed her fingers. Shuli then ask Nora if he's ever dated anyone before her, and Nora asked her what kind of a sad question is that.

    SPOILER P.T 4

    "But then, how did you do that from last night..."

    "Yes?"

    "How did you do that?"

    After all that backbiting, I mumbled and turned my head away, but Nora didn't let me do that.

    "How and what?"

    "No, it's just......"

    "What is it? What is it?"

    "No, just...""

    "Just?"

    "How can you be so good!

    With the sharp glances of people coming and going around the sunny lobby, I wanted to cover my head and sit down. I'm crazy, crazy drunk in the sea breeze! Of course! How many seconds did the embarrassing silence pass? Nora, who was staring at me with such clear eyes, suddenly grabbed my hand and pulled me close. Then, he looked at me with a serious expression.

    "Was it that good?"

    "What? No, it's big, of course not bad...." (hehe whose big?)

    "It wasn't bad?"

    "No, it wasn't bad, but to be honest...."

    "......."

    "I asked you that because it was good."

    "Because it was good.... Oh, wait a minute."

    Nora, who was staring at me with an ambiguous look as to whether he was angry or holding back laughter, suddenly let go of his hand and turned away. Then, I realized that his ears were burning red.

    "Nora?"

    "......."

    "Nora? Are you okay?"

    "Yes, it's okay. Let's go eat."

    My husband, holding my hand and leading the way, was exceptionally fast today. So I followed him without seeing his face properly until the end.

    This next section of the chapter talks about Albrecht (Nora's father) and how he is planning for retirement with his wife. He's finishing up paperwork to hand over his title to his newly married son when he is suddenly visited by his step-grandson (Jeremy), who greatly resembles his old friend, the former Marquis. They talk/argue about the church, holy council, celebrating the beginning of Protestantism compared to Catholicism, and a couple of other stuff (I won't go into much details over this). In the end, Albrecht ask Jeremy what's his problem is and Jeremy replies that he's bored. Albrecht then invites Jeremy to a banquet that is taking place at the Nuremburg mansion that evening, saying that he might meet someone who will offset his boredom and loneliness. In the end, Albrecht tells Jeremy that he will apologize to him when Nora comes back because of the letter.

    Then, we come back to Nora and Shuli who can't keep their hands off each other. Shuli says that it will be dangerous if they keep going at it so they come up a plan to hang out separately until 6:30pm. Nora doesn't like it but they have no choice since Shuli mention how they become hot and crazy whenever their eyes meet lol

    So Shuli is walking around town all afternoon and thinks about how the plan is working. She was also able to buy gifts for her relatives. Shuli then meets Countess Hattenstein, and apparently, she's having a marital fight with her husband. Countess Hattenstein thinks that Shuli is also fighting with Nora since she was out alone. The Countess then ask Shuli how many children she wants and Shuli's heart began to pound when she tries to imagine what her and Nora's child would look like. Then, some people starts yelling so Shuli and the Countess goes to the beach where a bunch of people were flocking to. To their surprise, Nora and Kyle (this is Count Hattenstein's name by the way) were standing on top of a tall whale statue. Both of them scream at their husbands, telling them to come down from the statue. So both husbands and wives scream at each other back and forth. Nora refuses to climb down until Shuli ask him if he was planning to make her a widow again, saying that she can't become a widow twice. He then jumps down. Kyle tells his wife that he won't come down unless tells him that she loves him (out loud, in front of everybody). And she does, in the most hilariously way possible haha.

    After the couples go their own way, Shuli yells at Nora for doing something dangerous and Nora tells her that it was for an important bet. Shuli is angry and Nora apologizes, promising to never do it again. After that, Nora shows Shuli what he brought this afternoon and is taken-aback when Nora says that he brought gifts for Jeremy and the other children. Among those gifts were pens and a dragger. Shuli was impressed with how her husband was taking care of her sons and daughter. Nora then gift Shuli a necklace that he got from the bet earlier. It's a limited edition, luxurious necklace with white mother pearls and thick sapphire decorations. It's also mentioned that Shuli's wedding ring is made from sapphire as well. Shuli begins to cry, and Nora apologies again for climbing up the statue because of the bet. He pulls Shuli into his arms and hugs her tightly.
     
  11. Rimuru_Slime

    Rimuru_Slime Member

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    SPOILER PT. 5

    When I looked out the window, the sun had fallen completely and the bluish darkness had dyed everywhere. We sat hand in hand for a moment and watched the scenery quietly, and at the same time we opened our mouths.

    "Sister."

    "Nora."

    "Sister, say it first."

    "No, you tell me first."

    "No, you go first."

    I put my head on his shoulder with a smile. Then I looked up at the sparkling blue eyes that were drawn to me, and the eyes that made the affection for him last forever.

    "I love you, Nora."

    I may be mistaken, but the blue eyes seemed to tremble slightly. After a while, a fluffy kiss fell down on my eyelids, and a sweet voice rang out.

    "I love you too."

    In the final part of the chapter, Shuli and Nora returns home after their 10-day honeymoon. They are greeted by their noisy children yelling, and demanding for their gifts. Nora gives them their gifts, starting with Jeremy.

    SPOILER PT. 6

    "I was eager to see your ass swept away by the waves."

    "You're a bastard."

    "You're a wicked stepfather and you want a good son? But what is this? What dragger?"

    "Yes, your gift. I think this will be useful for when you think your life is not going to work."

    "Is that what you're going to say to your son as a child?"

    "I don't know. You have to raise your child strong."

    "......Ugh, Mother Shuli! That bastard! He told me to kill myself! How could you say such a heartbreaking thing!"

    Jeremy, who clung to me with such a big size and had crying eyes, glanced softly at Nora. Jeremy stretched my arm and gave me a truly triumphant smile.

    "Shuli, I think that pretty stepchild is already driving us apart."

    "What do you mean?"

    "I told him not to disturb our honeymoon and not to dream of writing you a letter."

    "Oh, really?"

    "I told you so. Wasn't he mean?"

    "I have it as evidence! Whoa! Look at this, man."

    "You, get out."

    There was a pause for a moment.

    With Jeremy hanging on to me, Elias triumphantly talking with the crumpled sheets of paper, and Leon, who was shaking the fountain pen by his ears, Nora said again with a gruesome smile.

    "Get out of my house."

    "No, hey, what are you suddenly..."

    "Mom and Dad, don't kick the cat pups out. They're on the ground."

    "Get out. I don't want to get angry in front of my sister."

    At this point, Elias should have shouted, &Why are you my father?& But our Elias couldn't say a word, either because he was so embarrassed, scared by Nora's harsh habit, or whether he had realized his own faults. After all three of them scratched their heads and were driven out of the gate, I came up to Nora with a giggle and wrapped my arms around his waist.

    "So what did you write?"

    "......No, I just wrote them and replied first. Come back in three days, buy a gift for someone, tell me to write a letter to my sister right now, something like that. I replied in good faith, but I think it would have been twisted."

    "They must have been very bored. Because you weren't-"

    "What does it have to do with my absence?"

    "You're the only one who accepts things like that. To be honest with you, someone else would have been really angry."

    "Right."

    He, who was gentle, raised his hand and stroked my head. Then he gave a meaningful and quirky smile.

    "It'll be worth seeing once they have a brother. Don't you?"

    Shuli then goes out and talk to Jeremy who is sitting outside the gates. She ask how he and the other children are doing. Jeremy says that Elias is the same and Leon is more interested in books than romance. He also tells her that he's seeing someone. A girl from the Nuremberg family who he met at the banquet Nora's father invited him to. He was going to talk about it earlier but Nora got sulky. Elias and Leon joins them and they playful talk to each other like always. Elias tells Shuli that he likes it better when she was just his mother and that he misses that moment. Leon agrees with him, and Jeremy grinned with his eyes agreeing as well. They all look up at the sky, and Shuli wishes that Rachael was here with her. She then reaches out and stoke Elias's hair, telling him that she liked him better when he was young.

    -END OF THE SIDESTORY HONEYMOON-
     
  12. Undramun

    Undramun Well-Known Member

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    Nice! Thanks for this!
    One question though....why refer to her as sister? I'm kind of confused about that
    But it was such a fluffy read! Loved it !
     
  13. CaleFan 24

    CaleFan 24 Well-Known Member

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    Actually from what I gather the only languages that go easily through google are those that use the latin alphabet ABC. Any other lettering system is butchered
     
  14. Viole1369

    Viole1369 Immortal Ero

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    hmm, The recent chaps do feel like Head Knight might had some redeeming quality

    But in the end he doesn't really.

    If you see his thought process, he is not the slightest bit concerned with Shulli getting kicked out of house or her wellbeing of leaving in the middle of night with so few guards.

    The only thing he is interested is in , IF she is needed to appear at the wedding/ the people ask for her and she is not there and will SULLY FAMILY HONOR
    To him only thing of conflict is potential effect on family honor and nothing else, different from Butler and Head Maid who were concerned about shulli herself.
    So ya piece of shit, a piece of shit.

    Also he is garbage at his own duty, what kind of a fucking retard as a Head of security talks info about their family heads in open to other people? Friend or not. Literally does this guy has any SINGLE quality of Head knight?

    I don't think so.
     
  15. Hypothon

    Hypothon Semi-known disqus/NUF smut/shoujo commenter.

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    Nice observation! Haven't considered that AND if fits with his character who values the family image above all else!
    Which just makes things even more terrible if I could remember what was spoiled here whatever happened to him in 1st TL. I mean, Shuli's death indirectly caused a civil war, Elias impregnated Jeremy's former bride who was also an instrument in Shuli's demise, Johannes's relatives are aiming for his fortune and the kids are unable to defend for themselves. Shuli parading her image of some harlequin seems better in comparison (despite the era and how women are viewed) than an actual house on the brink of ruin because of internal greed conflict amongst relatives
     
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  16. Deleted member 312931

    Deleted member 312931 Guest

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    Thankyou for spoilers
     
  17. lady-kyo

    lady-kyo Well-Known Member

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    it is normal in korea, younger men call women who are close to sister, the term used is noona, you can search more about if you are interested.
     
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  18. KindapitiedMielle

    KindapitiedMielle Member

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    I will still be considering Jeremy one of the kids because he'll forever be a kid to me since he's Shuli's child, whether biological or not like i think of him as one of my children in a way too ahsjsks if that makes sense :blobmelt:
     
  19. KindapitiedMielle

    KindapitiedMielle Member

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    So someone who read the novel told me a while back that the green knight, I think the one whom she trusts so much is the one who kills her and also cuts her body up because he thinks she's a disgrace to the family. But reading all this what I get is that bandits that were hired were the ones to do it. So is there any truth to this spoiler? :sushi_singing:
     
  20. Viole1369

    Viole1369 Immortal Ero

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    The bandits were Knights lead by him + Vatican ones in disguise.

    Shulli death was joint effort between them
     
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