Discussion in 'Author Discussions' started by Lucilius, Nov 8, 2018.
Engaging in shameless advertisement, I see. Lys-chan approves this practice.
No yuri undertones means that it feels very gay amd the girls replace words like lover or girlfriend with best friend. Basically you know it's yuri but you don't flat out admit. Look up Gigguk yuri undertones on YouTube.
Make a thread about it once you start posting the chapters
a big +1 to this. With all of the yuri stories i (sometimes) write as a hobby, they're all straight out couples or harems where most (but not all) people are either accepting or dont give two shits about gay relationships. Then again, most of the time there is more important shit going on in the story worlds to care about.
Then again, you already seem to be on top of that issue.
On general isekai and fantasy, i cant help much. i suck at writing conventional fantasy.
As a connoisseur of fine yuri, and a potential reader, i an intrigued by the story idea you are creating. It is very unusual, which is good.
Here are some yuri isekai cliches I personally could do without:
Either the MC or the love interest is almost always a beastkin, so they can be an ~adorable animal ear girl~. (I understand the appeal, but you can even hate cake if you're fed it for every meal.)
The MC is 20+, even 30+, woman who reincarnates into a 15 year old girl and then loses her shit for a 14/15 year old. (Never hasn't been creepy in my opinion.)
In fact, it would be interesting if the characters were at least 18, or even adults. Japanese yuri leaves you drowning in schoolgirls.
The love interest is a slave that MC saves by managing to take ownership from her owner in some way, and usually (but not always) sets free. The love interest is reluctant to be freed. In fact, the love interest, out of pure gratitude and sudden unconditional love, wants to be made a servant or kept a slave so she can continue serving MC.
The love interest is sugar cube sweet and so innocent, she doesn't understand that she's being taken advantage of when the MC pets her ears/tails or hugs her strangely. Bonus: The MC doesn't realise what she's doing is sexual either, she just ~can't hold back from the cuteness~.
Even when characters are allowed to know that things are sexual, everyone treats it with as much maturity as an infant girl, so that "pure" feeling can be kept.
Really underdeveloped romance and characters. For example: we're supposed to love the beastkin because she's the "ideal" cute, although that's all she is, and the MC loves her with the strength and reasons that I love any puppy I pass in the street.
I'm sure I could go on, but that's the general idea.
When it comes to lighter moments... If it's a darker story, you could go for some comfort moments, or dates, as supposed to cotton candy levels of fluff. The softer, warmer parts of relationships usually come in the small things, like cuddling up on the couch to watch a film at the end of a nightmare day, or being brought your favourite cake, or your partner doing the chores for you when they know you're going to come home upset or tired.
The best developed yuri relationship I know is Utena and Anthy from "Revolutionary Girl Utena" (the show, not the film).
Developing friendships also help to lighten the mood.
Hmm, so basically beating around the bush. I'll take that in mind, I might do that with some of the other leads or supporting characters but not with the other ones since I want to develop that are together and say they are together in the end. Thanks! I'll take note of that.
I will but it'll prolly take a while considering my usual writing length is about 7k-16k words per chapter with 7k being my minimum at best.
Mhm, like I said in my previous replies I am planning it on being uncommon but not enough to be a big deal in the world like it's a minority but there is a certain group trying to oppose to it in a radical belief sense but it's not a religion which is deeply rooted long ago like in real life where they oppose anything that isn't in their dogma, basically they only want to do so due to radicalisation and being purists about it, the religion is old but belief on being 'pure' is just a new concept they're trying to push so to speak. But generally, yeah it's just uncommon thing to see but not a "Oh! Heresy!" or "Imma shocked u gay!" kinda thing. Though that faction still needs improvement and expanded since it would end being too cliched.
And thanks! Glad its pretty different from what I've seen thus far.
Oh yeah, those things are some things I've noticed as well and aren't fond of. You raised somethings that's been on my mind and noticed in general isekais and in yuri ones.
1) Yeah, I've noticed this too. It's good every so often but it gets used too much that and it always doesn't end well. They're always used as an excuse to be different or something else entirely. It's rare to find ones that are actually written nicely for it but still too common. I'm planning on making the MC a demon/devil due in part to her title, for potential love interests maybe but in end they're just potential ones in one in the many.
2-3) Ah nah, I've noticed this kind of thing too and admittedly always left with a weird/disturbed feeling cause 15 yr old body with an adult head, most of the time it's gender bender too. I'm not going to don't worry. She's 20+ reborn into either the same age or around her age area or something older but I'm still thinking of what her past life could be since OL is so overused. Deaths from car crash and overwork are overused for it too.
4) I will have slavery in the story but not to that kind of degree of being overtly cliched or stupid, slavery is slavery there's no sugar coating it. I mentioned this in a previous reply; basically, I don't like those kind of situations where it's like the love interests loses their brain for the MC. What you mentioned is something like that cause it's like the love interest didn't even experience those years of slavery and immediately jumped to Stockholm syndrome like symptoms just so she could be ~forever with MC~.
5-6) I'm making potential love interests but not those kind of harem BS where they go gaga and lose their common sense and be violated and considered it okay just because it's the MC. I want to give them character after all and enough space for development in both their personality and potential relationships and how they will interact with others.
7) Sounds like the opposite of what I'll be doing but anyways I think the problem I would face is if I actually went overboard and left little to no space for development of the character. It's why I tend to ask for suggestions from others and seek advice of whether this or that has become too much.
I'll take note of those since I am going to develop their relationship from scratch, basically strangers > acquaintances > friends > etc. Sadly still haven't watched Utena in all due honesty, so that reference is unknown to me. :'3
I think they were suggesting that you should make it a yuribait work instead of an actual yuri in order to appeal to people who don't like yuri.
I'll do my best to explain it, then.
Utena has the same sort of development you're aiming for, going along quite a few stages:
Spoiler: A sort of overview that gives sort of context
To begin with, Anthy is just a strange schoolmate that Utena doesn't think much about, other than being concerned when what seems to be her boyfriend hits her. She ends up winning her as her Rose Bride during an attempt to avenge her friend's broken heart, and initially finds it a bother. So their relationship is really fake. Anthy only treats her with any "affection" because she's an abused woman who thinks it's her duty to act like a doll and be whatever her partner wants from her, and Utena is kind of a huge dick who every now and again acts all gallant because she wants to be like a prince.
Anthy just acts out her part without Utena ever realising. Utena decides she has to "save" this strange girl from her bullies, so decides for her that she has to make more friends, and starts pushing her towards Miki. Anthy just does whatever Utena wants.
There are parts where Utena realises Anthy is treated like shit, and parts where Anthy is taken off-guard by how noble Utena is and how genuinely nice she seems to be, despite her misguided actions. They start to genuinely care for each other and miss each other when they're broken apart, and Utena fights to get her back.
Even though love starts blooming, there's still a lot of misunderstandings and hurt between each other. Utena never once stops to ask Anthy what she wants and thinks, and Anthy both loves and resents Utena for her actions (and probably secretly thinks she's stupid). And Anthy always keeps everything a secret.
They keep hurting each other more and more, and then everything comes out, they argue, then make up and get closer...
But actually, I think the strength behind their relationship is that it's obvious how they feel even when they can't see it themselves, and even though they never kiss or confess to each other. A lot of that's done with visuals and key moments.
It's important when Utena wakes up and finds Anthy asleep next to her, holding her hand, showing genuine affection and attachment for the first time. Anthy opens up a little more to Utena very slowly, and that's illustrated by her wearing her hair down and taking her glasses off when they go to bed, and the face-to-face midnight talks they have. We know how Anthy's feeling later on because we get to see her looking sad when Utena's taken away by Akio, or looking resentfully at her when she's not looking. And you can tell when Utena's falling in love because of the fondness in her eyes when she looks at Anthy, especially in little moments that aren't necessarily romantic.
That's harder to do with text, but romance is essentially stronger if you can find subtler cues to show their changing opinions and warmer feelings for each other.
One thing I remember one person saying about them is that this sort of relationship probably came about because the member of the team who wanted to make them a couple faced pressure by another to keep their straight, so he was trying to pass them under the radar. They're pretty obviously gay to most people, but I think people were more resistant to noticing gay relationships in the past.
But I think that's generally advice given: relationships should be developed so that you can tell two people love each other even without a kiss or the words. (Though I think it's good to have them at some point.)
TL;DR: Showing developing relationships through slight and indirect signs is usually the best, if you can manage it.
Also, since I feel I was pretty terrible at explaining the Utena stuff, here are two music videos that can hopefully show you it:
Spoiler: Contains spoilers
Hmm, kinda adamant about yuribait considering there's loads of those and a lot where they're just yuribaiting and end it with a het pairing than actual good yuri content but I'll keep that in mind.
That's actually what I'm going for, thanks for the input in Utena. It should help me write the development better. Anyways thanks for the advice overall!!
Yuribait might win you some non-yuri readers but it'll just as likely lose you plenty of yuri liking readers.
Mhm, that's what I thought so as well. I think I'd just prefer to stick to actual yuri, there's a scarcity of good yuri novels as is that's being translated. No need to bait people and trick them about it.
Extra idea (if it's not too late): Instead of the generic "MC with a weak title is supposed to be trash, but she rises against that" Why not change it up a bit and give her a very strong title instead. You can give her childhood friend (or sibling, or someone else she's very close to) the weak title, so this person starts acting more distant towards her and everyone else also tries to separate them (some more vigorously than others), cause "weak trash should not be together with talented people like MC" And this is what tells her that the whole title system may not actually be such a good thing. (You can even kill the person off to maximize the effect)
No worries, it's the opposite of what I'm going for anyways. Which means what you already said, a strong female MC. As for familial relations is 50-50 on that idea. Since that also seems to be a common trope amongst isekais when in concerns of familial relations, friendships, classmates, etc. which I want too and try and avoid too much tropes and themes being smooshed into the novel.
Moonpearl excellently listed the Japanese isekai cliché that I'm allergic to. I'll repeat them again and add a few more things:
- No overt cutesy characters, especially not kemonomimi or maid acting like that.
- No braindead characters. Even teenagers should be aware of what is sexual, especially if that teenager is from a middle age era world because children marry very early back then. A sheltered character will be a bit naive but will immediately become smarter after one mistake (e g. no trusting stranger or you will get robbed, a seemingly kind person might turn out to be a lecher that touch your butt, etc.)
- No romanticizing Stockholm Syndrome. A slave who is freed by the MC should be grateful for the freedom and willing to fight alongside her as an equal partner, not a servant.
- No dragging. There must be a sense of progress to a relationships everytime there's a scene of interaction. Don't repeat the same routine again and again. An MC who brazenly confess to a love interest who react with tsundereness is only funny for 3 times at most before it gets stale ("I Favour The Villainess"). Or a relationship that is nothing but bland fluffiness.
- No OP MC from the beginning. There must be real obstacles so that she can have a hard earned victory.
In addition, you'll want to avoid these in order to not alienate a good portion of yuri fans:
- No het rape.
- No yuribait.
- No beating around the bush, a.k.a. gay tease that never materialize as a real relationship.
- No extreme homophobia. Ideally, the isekai is one where gay is acknowledged as rare, but people don't have a problem with it. If there must be homophobia, make it enough to convey the discrimination (e.g. a guy shouting "but two girls together is wrong, you should be thrown in jail!") , but not so brutal/graphic that it's cringy (e.g. the villagers jumped in to punch and kick and the victim vomit and someone is shouting "faggot" and "rape her till she knows the pleasure of the dick hahaha").
There are stuff you can do to make the story appealing to even readers who don't normally consume yuri:
- Give it a main plot or big subplot that isn't romance. You can consult many great isekai manga such as Yuugi Fushigi, Inuyasha, Red River Anatolia, etc. They are all fantastic stories with tragedy and dark themes but also light moments of comedy and romance.
- Add some elements of mystery. The readers should be able to brainstorm together with the characters to resolve a secret that has adequate hints. This will evoke a deeper investment in the story, as oppose to a passive reading of a straightforward adventure or political struggle.
- The yuri girls must have their own goals other than getting into each other's panties.
- The yuri girls must have a colourful circle of acquaintances, who must play a role in the plot. An annoying friend who is a superb wingwoman, a slimy bitch who might or might not backstab you but occasionally offers a great insight when you need it most, an autist enemy who does detestable things but you can't help but laugh at her mannerisms, etc. Meaningful friendships help to flesh out your characters a lot, as well as highlight the romantic relationship, because the readers now have a base to compare how different the character treats a good friend and a girlfriend.
Thanks, what most of you said were already things that the other mentioned but the ones that weren't mentioned before gives me a good insight on what to avoid and look out for, thanks for the advice!
Do not cram everything into your story.
Unless you are making gintama.
Separate names with a comma.