Discussion An evaluation of dropped novels.

Discussion in 'Novel General' started by Fan2zz, Jun 3, 2017.

  1. Westeller

    Westeller 【Linlin】【The Love Doctor】【NUF Nicknamer】 Staff Member

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    I would like to go ahead and correct a misunderstanding you (and others in this thread, despite some people clarifying) seem to have.

    The "3 month rule" is a rule that applies specifically to Novel Pick-Up Requests. That's a subforum here where people can actively recommend novels that interest them to any interested translators that stop by, if you didn't know. For obvious reasons, we don't want a ton of threads there full of people ragging on any given translator and begging someone else to take over.

    That said, it does not apply to Novel Updates.

    Novel Updates has it's own criteria for judging what counts as fair competition between translators and what is blatant poaching. That criteria is incredibly loose and full of all kinds of exceptions -- it's intended only to excuse us from linking to the most malicious of poaching. That's all. In the situation you described, the new translation would absolutely be linked to, no questions asked. Novel Updates does not get involved in competition between translators.

    Of course, that doesn't mean the staff doesn't have personal opinions -- we read, hang out, and argue around here just the same as anyone else. Our personal opinions, however, do not change Novel Update's neutrality. I'm not sure what exactly happened with whatever incident you're referring to there, but I can guarantee that, regardless of that mod's opinion, the translation would have appeared on Novel Updates.

    No change in policy necessary. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
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  2. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    Err...I can't remember anything about this...anyone know what and when this happen?
     
  3. Shio

    Shio Moderator Staff Member

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    Screenshot, please.
    Considering it's a pretty heavy claim, please provide some link/ss
     
  4. BlackBlade

    BlackBlade Well-Known Member

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    Wow that link says exactly what I was advising, that it should be after 50 chapters get translated and that active translating needs to be away for 1 month. I guess the policy is good. Also the staff definitely did not say they had to stop, just said they were scum for taking up the novel basically, before the customary 3 months of waiting, also because of some drama that happened in regards to contacting the guy who did the original translation by the new translators. Like they wanted to help speed up his translation by having him join their team, and he didn't want to and was planning to come back in a month or two, even though he'd already not translated for just about 3 months, then they just started translating without him because he'd only done what like 10 chapters? Also I said he vanished, but he did leave a note saying he was busy and he couldn't translate for a bit, so it wasn't an unexplained vanish. You're right that it is their own opinion and not NU's, but it was pretty annoying for the readers and the translators who wanted to get the translation going again and it made me very annoyed with the 3 month thing. Even if it's not a rule it's kind of a custom here, and I think the custom needs to get shifted towards what's in the link you posted.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
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  5. BlackBlade

    BlackBlade Well-Known Member

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    Is it a heavy claim? Are people not allowed to have their own opinions as staff? Besides who they were is really not relevant to the discussion and you can even view my credibility as being worse if you want. Im just trying to show examples of why waiting 3 months for a translators absence is a bad custom, atleast until 50 chapters have been translated. It leads to really bad scenarios, and taken to extremes someone could claim a novel with like 3-4 chapters of translation, then wait 3 months before updating again to hold the claim. Luckily the policy is already in line with avoiding this scenario, but I think many people don't know the policy and think 3 months is the rule (atleast I did until just now).
     
  6. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    NUF doesn't have rules about picking up novel so the staff should not chew somebody about that.
     
  7. Parth37955

    Parth37955 NU #3, [Dead Inside], Mid-Boss, Dark Dealer Staff Member

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    >_> scum??? at most I've said that a translator is terrible, I don't think any other mod even uses scum in their vocab. Even if we had an opinion about, by no means would it have affected the translator.
    It is a heavy claim. Dude, you're literally slandering us by saying "A certain mod/staff here at NU even chewed new translators...pressured them to drop it." You can't say that and then play it off as can't mods have an opinion. When you were using that line to show that our policy (that you didn't know about) was bad, it was intended to show that are unfair. that is the opinion people would form from reading what you wrote. And now, you can't even remember who said it or offer any proof whatsoever.

    I mean, look at this guy:
    because of you, he freaking think we chew people out. and Dyne, we have rules for pick-up requests on NUF. but we don't care who picks up the novel. AND WE DON'T CHEW OUT PEOPLE OVER IT.

    @BlackBlade I demand a freaking apology to the entire staff.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
  8. LaDyViL

    LaDyViL New Member Staff Member

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    @Parth37955 might want to bold and size that last line. In case some people have selective sight...
     
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  9. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    @Parth37955 sorry for the misunderstanding. I mean to emphasize that the rumour he claim is a heavy slander since chewing people for picking up a novel is a big NO. Seems that my post get truncated somehow
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
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  10. BlackBlade

    BlackBlade Well-Known Member

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    If you want to know how I came up with the word scum, it's something along the lines of reading you describe what they did in a negative light at contrast to many people who were being positive it was getting translated again so it stood out to me more, then calling it annoying practices which immediately translated in my head to scummy practices, then add a dose of 6-8 months to forget exactly what words were used. Looking back on the thread it's not nearly as bad as I remembered, for example i had remembered you making multiple posts but you just made that one. It was also a pretty straight to the point post, even though it was a strong condemnation you said exactly what you didn't like, you even said you weren't 100% sure that itd had happened and that it was something you'd been informed about not what you'd seen yourself. I apologize for remembering it incorrectly and bringing it up. Im actually really surprised my memory was so off on this.
    (quoted) Sosseres said:
    Interesting to see two groups working on this now after 2 months of no activity.

    Seems MC really wants future companions and is willing to see past the current huge faults.
    (quoted) BlackBlade said:
    I'm just worried if this new tl stops translating the original TL will vanish again. Just read his note in his translation and he says he isn't working with them. Well hopefully this competition will get this novel out of the 10's of chapters translated.
    Parth: shrugs. According to End, lightnovelsbastion asked him, he said no and that he'd be back in janurary, and they released anyways and asked him to join them and to host his chapters on their site. >_> pretty annoying practices imo.

    Also Parth I've always felt like you were a pretty powerful mod, so hearing you speak out against what they were doing made it seem to me like they'd be pressured by you, even when you weren't doing it intentionally with your words. I mean consider this, he responded to your post with practically an essay.
    (quoted parths post)
    To clarify, I asked if he was still going to work on it. His reply was "yes rl is hammering me right now. Need to finish my degree , looking for job. Time is getting limited as I grow older." Nothing about coming back in January and such.

    I replied telling him we already have 3 chapters translated, what do you wanna do and then we received no reply for almost up to four days, so we released anyway and sent an email asking for permission to host his chapters and that were determined and eager to fully translate the novel. One of the reasons why we released chapters 14-16 was because we linked our releases to the author, to show him our fan-translations of his work and also to prove that there is an English following for it.


    After that End fairly replied saying he's upset etc.

    I kindly ask him why not work together if you have less time now. i stated to him that we're not trying to kick him out of tling memorize but to work together.

    if his goal was to really translate the novel to completion, I don't see why he would reject our proposal (though I understand he was upset at the time ). We could of done something like that gensou novel where yukkuri? And larvyde splits chapters. We just wanted permission to get his first 13 chapters instead of wasting time redoing them.

    it's not realistic for him to finish translating 1000 chapters all by himself with less time now. We received a reply again about memorize being his baby or something.
    .

    After this I stated ok I get you're upset, we're sorry but I will post the remaining edited and translated chapters and will respectfully hold our translations for now( we actually have translated up to chapter 22 but have stopped since) as we want to get the author's blessing regardless whether we continue or drop it.

    He then continues cheeky and insults us by claiming our chapter 14 was MTL/GT when his was identical to it.

    So I told him, we are waiting on the authors reply, we haven't said anything about officially dropping the project.

    I don't know where he pulled this fact about him telling us he'll be back in January bs camefrom.

    From my point of view, sure i admit, what we did was a slight dick move for not waiting on the 3 month etiquette but with the facts that the novel has 1000 chapters and that he has less time now I'd say isn't he being selfish? It's not his own work and he himself knows that he wont be able to commit as much time as before. It's not like he picked it up as it was recently published. If he really continued in Jan, we would of hit the 3 month thingy anyway. His track record on any doesn't seem very promising either.

    He's done 13 chapters( thank you) but i don't see why it is wrong for us wanting to continue translating a story for the community that we too enjoy. If we have to then we will redo the initial chapters. Memorize is one of the most top read novels on joara, it is not a hidden gem or anything like that. We waited two months+ and I think that's fair.

    I just wanted to share my side instead of the public only getting his version. This will probably the only reply on the matter from us. Anyhow, I don't want things to remain unhealthy, since MEM is getting love, we are officially putting this project on hold/hiatus/break."
    and at the end of that essay he announces he put the translation on hold. (http://forum.novelupdates.com/threads/m-e-m-o-r-i-z-e.17746/page-3 post 46) It's one of the big reasons I remembered this wrongly, simply their reaction to your post and MEMORIZE translation going on another 3 month break after the new tl's put the translation on hold. Of course this isn't something you had control over. Also I didn't realize "3 month etiquette" he mentioned in his essay was simply custom not policy until one of the staff guys in this thread pointed it out. Once again sorry for bringing this up when I didn't remember the details accurately, I am also sorry it's become the focal point of this thread since I wasn't trying to even focus on this. If I was really trying to blow it up I would have directly mentioned you and posted to the thread at the beginning. Although I'm not sorry about the intention of my post, which was to help improve the policy here regarding dropped novels, I maybe should have done more research to discover there was actually a web page on the dropped novel policy, and that my proposals were in fact already the current policy. I was most definitely NOT trying to say you guys were unfair, just trying to help improve the current policy to the best of my abilities, which is the point of this thread. Even in my posts in that thread 6-8 months ago you can see that I thought the 3 month custom was the rule here and since no one corrected me I guess other people did too.

    I am sorry NU staff for remembering what happened incorrectly. I was wrong on this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
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  11. kobatochandaisuki

    kobatochandaisuki Well-Known Member

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    Wasn't the 3 months "rule" invented to avoid dramas caused by excessive serie pick ups? (written as "pick up" but read as "poaching")

    I don't translate anything since years after having projects poached and getting into conflicts against ass*oles because new people just didn't know what a proper etiquette was. Before, there was no need of such rule. If you see something not being translated for a while and you want to pick up, you contact the translator and ask if you could take the project over, in all politeness. And then the poaching fever happened, with some leechers encouraging the idiots who didn't know how to write simple and short emails that even a 5-years old child could do. So the invention of those rules show how greedy, stupid or ungrateful some people had been because otherwise, just a simple talk between the concerned parties would have been sufficient without problems. (But some people don't know how to talk or think.)

    Some leechers say about translators earning tons of money. Do you think money comes to us like oil flows in Arabia? With many ad networks that are "brand safe", ad revenues are so poor, you can be happy when you can earn about 0.01$ per 1000 views when you're a newbie (not a joke). And Ad Block doesn't help at all. (You can consider about 35% to 65% of the already poor ad revenue being cut for a translator because of people using ad blocks)
    Donations? Only a very few popular series receive them. Well, this one partially explain why some greedy translators try to poach known series so that they are more likely to succeed and rarely try to translate a new one. (And/or they don't have good taste or talent to find good series).

    Whatever, most of us just don't earn as much money as you could think and do more for fun than anything else. (For my case, a few hundred or even a thousand a month wouldn't mean shit cuz I live in the fucking Switzerland where even part time jobs have a minimum and average (minimum is the average, yes. Lol) wage of 20 CHF/hour and where a decent job earns about 5-6k swiss francs. And translator/interpreter itself is considered as a rather highly-paid job (as interpreter, I had 100 CHF/15 minutes for special cases, 250 CHF/day if nothing special and not hard)

    Btw translators aren't machines and MTL gives you cancer.

    Anyway, this is my random ranting and I had to say something after reading this post :V
     
  12. Raneday

    Raneday Well-Known Member

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    *pat pat*
    Now you know on why I didn't continue my plan to make some teasers, you could understand the raws but translating it into English(especially since it's not your mother language and my vocabulary is being tested) is really hard making, like making the flow of it smooth plus those JP words that can't be translated in English at all. So yeah *bites brasca*
     
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  13. Ai chan

    Ai chan Queen of Yuri, Devourer of Traps, Thrusted Witch

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    Totally agree with the poaching thing. While most translators don't mind letting others take over, some translators are rather attached to their titles and the least one can do is actually ask to take over. Sure, translators normally don't have the right to be exclusive, but they found the titles and they shared it, without much care whether it's going to be popular or not. So they deserve at least some measure of respect for finding a story that people grow to love.

    So having someone else seeing it's popular, then swooping in to take over, then making money from that already popular title without care that the original translator may still have plans for it is the same as shitting on fan translation community.

    If they're so good, then why didn't they just look for new titles on syosetu or one of those chinese sites? There are plenty way better titles than we have listen on NU. Even my own title was kind of low on the ranking.

    Now, let's speak about my title. Two years ago, I translated several prologues and asked for permission from the authors if I could host the translation. Two of them told me to take it down and I did. One of them replied after half a year, giving me permission as long as I didn't make money from it. But by then, I was already busy with my own original novel, so I offered two titles for anyone to take over. One was taken over by Estelion's friend, and I had no problem with it, in fact, I welcomed it. It was a good comedy and I didn't have time to handle it. Estelion took the effort to google the title to see if any other group has taken it and he found that I already translated it. So he asked me if I was still translating it and I said no and handed it over to him.

    My other title has been on the shelf for anyone to take over for over a year. Then I decided to create an anti-aggregator system, put up the LN cover on the NU page to create some hype and posted a thread here. It was a fairly ambitious project and it flopped because I was the only programmer, and my programming skill was beginner level. It has a critical flaw in that even with the system in place, bots can still scrape it. I plan on abandoning Hugs & Love Translations and just post the translations on my Hugs & Love blog until google tell me I'm breaking the law.

    But what do you know, about two weeks after I put up the LN cover and a week after I posted the announcement, a translator group suddenly told me they'd be taking over the title. And I was like , "Dude, what the fuck? I already posted an announcement about it just a week earlier!"

    Three weeks after I posted the announcement, someone else went ahead and translated chapter 1 part 1, which we had already translated, only haven't programmed yet due to a critical flaw in the web application. I wasn't informed of this and only found out when someone else contacted me about it. And I was like, "Dude! I posted the announcement 3 weeks ago! Why didn't you take over last year when I was giving it away?!!!" We managed to resolve the issue peacefully as he clearly wasn't aware of it and wasn't trying to poach.

    Then another group contacted me, asking if I was still translating it. I got tired from it and just pointed them to my thread.4-5 days later, another group contacted me and I was wondering why did this title suddenly become popular. Again, I pointed to my thread. To avoid from being asked about it again, I posted the translation before it was ready, despite the application still having flaws and a lot of people complained about it.

    Why won't you for-profit people just find new titles?!!! Seriously, A Warrior Begins Life isn't anywhere near the top. It was in the Weekly Top 5 for awhile, but that was when I first discovered it 2 years earlier. It is no longer than popular anymore.

    There are plenty of stories way better in syosetu. Pick those! If you can read Japanese, then you'll know those stories are good.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
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  14. AggressivePacifist

    AggressivePacifist Well-Known Member

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    Actually you could be stopped, since BTTH is probably one of the 20 novels that WW owns the license to translate and publish in English :p
     
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  15. Parth37955

    Parth37955 NU #3, [Dead Inside], Mid-Boss, Dark Dealer Staff Member

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    K, everything is fine now. As for that, well, I had some background info that made me predisposed to lean one way than the other. >_> we've been getting a lot of bashing/slandering lately, so I kind of broke a little ._.

    Yeh it was somehow...no idea how, but it's cool. Sorry for using you as an example
     
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  16. remy911

    remy911 ┗|`o′|┛ Staff Member

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    Reality is more dull than imagination. :p
    I don't think poaching was even on our minds at the time.

    The 3 month guideline came about because we had a "pick up" section in the forums and didn't want people making request threads every day for projects that were slow or "late". Basically, we didn't want to see posts like this:
    It would have been bad for the community if we had let this kind of attitude proliferate on the forums.

    Fun fact: Another mod actually wanted 6 months, like MangaUpdates does. What might've been, eh?
     
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  17. AliceShiki

    AliceShiki 『Ms. Tree』『Magical Girl of Love and Justice』

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    *hugs*

    Yeah, I know how you feel... At least it's fun to translate! \(^^)/